The three disasters that wiped out Ukraine: 1991, 2008 and US's fuck-fuck games

[mayfly13]

1. Breakup from USSR 1991

Following this, Ukraine became the World's third nuclear power.
Why? Because three former Soviet Unions inherited it's nuclear arsenal and THOUSANDS of nuclear stations : Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and.... Kazachstan...

Do you think that Russia would ever tolerate to have it's most dangerous eggs in 4 baskets?
Nevermind that they think that Ukraine should be in Russia.

2. In 2008, Ukraine applied for NATO

3. 2014

After Yanukovych was dethroned (both in accord with Americans and through people's will), 2014 the Donbas Russian majority rebelled.
What followed was a bloodbath, both sides committed atrocities.

And here's the kicker: according to American standards, Donbas should have seceded a long time ago.
Because at the end of the conflict in Kosovo, the US intervened in Yugoslavia.
They unilaterally overrode local sovereignty laws by invoking UN Resolution 1244, according to which if a government commits genocide against it's citizens, those citizens have the right to secede.
What was good for Kosovo wasn't good for Donbas, and Russians became furious.

Zelensky (who apparently is an idiot) precipitated Ukraine's demise with his 2021 moves.




The 2022 Invasion of Ukraine
It wasn't Putin's sole decision, it was the decision of Russia' military complex, who consider Ukraine's nuclear capabilities and and it's current pro-NATO stance a threat to Russia's existence.
Putin actually tried to negotiate with Biden, despite his Generals' misgivings. And had Putin not invaded Ukraine, he would no longer be president.

Ukraine is done and the West knows it
Everything on TV (lionizing Zelensky, the 'diplomatic' talks, sanctions - which work only long-term) are just theater for the Public.

And to add insult to injury, as we speak, despite the sanctions imposed on Russia, US just imported billions of dollars worth of barrels of fuel from Russia.

 

[mayfly13]

The US pushed Ukraine towards conflict with Russia
knowing that Russia sees both Ukraine's arsenal and NATO as as an existential threat
that Russia sees Ukraine as being part of Russia
and that they're one of the most ruthless Empires in History.



If true, the silver lining of this theory (if you can say that after watching the horror)
is that it gives a hope to other EE countries, that Puting mayyybe might stop with Ukraine.

 

[mayfly13]

What did Zelensky (backed by US) think, when he continued to needle Russia in 2020-2001?
That ruthless Russia would tolerate someone on it's border who has nuclear stations, wants to join NATOAnd might soon become richer than Russia cause the newly found Black Sea oil?

They should have agreed to Putin's requests a few months ago.
Unfair terms, but better than what we're seeing.
First time I wish Trump was still president, rather than Biden.

 

[ContinentalPsyOp]

Russian Orcs crossed Ukraine's border on Russian orders . . . very curious why you deny Russians agency and independence. Is Russia unable of being held accountable for their actions?

Definitely not, because the Ukrainians are slaughtering these Russian orcs every day!!!!! BAYRAKTAR!

 

[pecksniff]

Ukraine is done and the West knows it

Don't seem like they're done yet.

 

[Manny39]

Putin's dream has always been to rebuild the Soviet Union. He won't stop until he has retaken the original Soviet States.

No amount of placation would have prevented this. If anything events leading up to the 2022 invasion may have led him to let his emotions overcome his willingness to heed his military advisors who warned him that the armed forces were not ready for such a move.

Hopefully he has made a fatal mistake that will remove him from the equation sooner than later. The longer this goes on the greater the chance he will launch a nuke or Russia will completely collapse leaving it's nukes in the hands of dozens or newly emboldened warlords competing for the control of Russia

 

[LupusDei]

There is so much misconception in this tread. Almost every single sentence is false.

Soviet Union, well, it was just a particularly glorious (even if also embarrassing at times) episode of Russian Empire. Nothing more, nothing less. (That ideology everyone so triggered about, even if somewhat organic, doesn't matter for Russians themselves, not in the way the outsiders see it.)

What really doomed Ukraine was... Pushkin!

However... a nation with thousand year history has finally born. What used to be fuzzy now is drawn in blood. They can be slain and exiled, but can't be defeated.

Did the mythical "West" (personified as omnipotent spirit confusingly called U.S.) incite the war (obviously, to harm Russia, the only goal it ever had)? Yes. There was indeed a very narrow balance point only where the war could ever be possible, and it was managed with incredible accuracy. By holding Ukraine back, denying her the alliances and support they begged for in face of known existential threat, and continued reassurances to Russia of they might and impunity.

Putin was lied to, and we do know that. Was he, indeed, maliciously led to believe his army will crush any resistance with terrific ease and will be then welcomed as liberators. No. It was the only reality that made sense to him, and to people who confirmed those irrefutable facts based on the fine work of vast services. The lowly people who knowingly lied didn't believe their false reports are anything actionable, anything more than feel good reassurances masking the uncomfortable distortions of the unquestionable truth.

 

[mayfly13]

1. Soviet Union, well, it was just a particularly glorious (even if also embarrassing at times) episode of Russian Empire. Nothing more, nothing less. (That ideology everyone so triggered about, even if somewhat organic, doesn't matter for Russians themselves, not in the way the outsiders see it.)

2. Did the mythical "West" (personified as omnipotent spirit confusingly called U.S.) incite the war (obviously, to harm Russia, the only goal it ever had)? Yes. There was indeed a very narrow balance point only where the war could ever be possible, and it was managed with incredible accuracy. By holding Ukraine back, denying her the alliances and support they begged for in face of known existential threat, and continued reassurances to Russia of they might and impunity.

You know why I keep flooding the Board with anti-Western shit?
It's not because I doubt your narrative.
The more Xers and Milenials listen to Baltic countries, Poland and historians from other EE countries, the more they start to realize what a dangerous and brutal neighbor Russian empire will always be.

It's because of the Cognitive dissonance.
The other cunning and brutal colonialists from modern History: the US, England and Germany are being painted by Western massmedia & their EE media lackies like the good guys, the saviors.
----Only recently had a more balanced story about how Germany put money over Ukraine and EE countries, by engaging in the Nordstrom pipeline, emerged.

We need a balanced narrative which, while agreeing that Russia was the aggressor & will always be imperialist/ committed war crimes and genocide in Ukraine,
also acknowledges America's shadey maneuvers in all this.

Oh please.... Anyone who paid attention to the Middle East, doesn't believe that the US kept dangling the unachievable NATO carrot in front of Ukraine, just because they were naiive and wanted to help.
And s many other things.

 

[Philthy_Phil]

There is so much misconception in this tread. Almost every single sentence is false.

Were you expecting otherwise from him?

 

[LupusDei]

Were you expecting otherwise from him?

And s many other things.

Like the really relevant part you both jumped right over.

 

[mayfly13]

Did the mythical "West" (personified as omnipotent spirit confusingly called U.S.) incite the war (obviously, to harm Russia, the only goal it ever had)? Yes. There was indeed a very narrow balance point only where the war could ever be possible, and it was managed with incredible accuracy. By holding Ukraine back, denying her the alliances and support they begged for in face of known existential threat, and continued reassurances to Russia of they might and impunity.

Putin was lied to, and we do know that. Was he, indeed, maliciously led to believe his army will crush any resistance with terrific ease and will be then welcomed as liberators. No. It was the only reality that made sense to him, and to people who confirmed those irrefutable facts based on the fine work of vast services. The lowly people who knowingly lied didn't believe their false reports are anything actionable, anything more than feel good reassurances masking the uncomfortable distortions of the unquestionable truth.

I was actually keen on following this, but I mainly struggled to understand the first paragraph due to language barriers.

It felt initially like, while unequivocally saying Russia is imperialistic & will always seek to expand
you were striving for balance by acknowledging the 'West's own nepharious role in this clusterfuck.
But then I wasn't entirely sureof my understanding & you followed it with paragraph 2, which confused me.

& re-explain?

 

[LupusDei]

I was actually keen on following this, but I mainly struggled to understand the first paragraph due to language barriers.

It felt initially like, while unequivocally saying Russia is imperialistic & will always seek to expand
you were striving for balance by acknowledging the 'West's own nepharious role in this clusterfuck.
But then I wasn't entirely sureof my understanding & you followed it with paragraph 2, which confused me.

& re-explain?

Basically, yes, but there's mile thick irony. It's the "Russia's last war" topic.

What confused you about the deliberate delusion they're in?

You obviously didn't follow the link under ...Pushkin!

That's a long read, I know. The author has a book worth of stuff in long tweet threads, a bit extreme, but absolutely must read for background of the Z-war.

 

[mayfly13]

The one thing I'm still convinced of:

Ukraine made a HUGE mistake by not letting go of Crimea.

Crimea's secession was via a referendum, it's 90% Russian popullation wanted to join Russia.
Ukraine has almost no spiritual affiliations to Crimea. Russians, Tatars and Greeks do. Crimea was merely gifted to Ukraine by Krutchev, against his party's and popullation's wishes
And with a neighbor as dangerous as Russia, you NEED to stop living in "how things should be" world and be realistic instead.

US's cunning manipulations were clear here
as Ukraine leaders used to follow their advice.

I don't clearly understand US's goal in this. Crimea's strategic placement for nato? Newly discovered oil in the Black Sea?
Or maybe the US was having other indirect goals in mind, like the China-Russia Silk Road.