The Russian Invasion of Ukraine is the Best thing to happen to Global Diplomacy

[ll74]

The public facing war has shone a light on the ineffectiveness of our global diplomatic bodies.

And we need to use this to pressure our governments to make changes.

Interestingly, I think the timing with the pandemic has made this even more politically effective.

Does the global attention span have the stamina to use it?

 

[pecksniff]

Globally, and in all cases nationally, we lack any public consensus on how such things should be improved.

 

[mayfly13]

The public facing war has shone a light on the ineffectiveness of our global diplomatic bodies.

And we need to use this to pressure our governments to make changes.
Interestingly, I think the timing with the pandemic has made this even more politically effective.
Does the global attention span have the stamina to use it?

Both on their ineffectiveness in preventing the war and the massacres,
and on their duplicity.

I've been reading for some time that Brits are angry and disgusted with Boris Johnson's mismagement of the Pandemic + corruption.

And in this context, seeing him jump on the "Slava Ukraini" wagon,
paint his twitter account in blue and yellow
felt so ... ludicrous to me.....
I bet many Brits. feel like punching his face.

The public facing war has shone a light on the ineffectiveness of our global diplomatic bodies.
And we need to use this to pressure our governments to make changes.
Interestingly, I think the timing with the pandemic has made this even more politically effective.
Does the global attention span have the stamina to use it?

interesting thoughts, and I think too that nothing will happen.
If nothing happened after the 2008 bailouts on taxpayers' money, of those who stole from them & bankrupted them....

Don't know if it's because we've all fallen into some bizarre online and rl inertia
or if it's because the modern psychological techniques of manipulation & prevention of dissent are now far more sophisticated...

 

[ll74]

Both on their ineffectiveness in preventing the war and the massacres,
and on their duplicity.

I've been reading for some time that Brits are angry and disgusted with Boris Johnson's mismagement of the Pandemic + corruption.

And in this context, seeing him jump on the "Slava Ukraini" wagon,
paint his twitter account in blue and yellow
felt so ... ludicrous to me.....
I bet many Brits. feel like punching his face.



interesting thoughts, and I think too that nothing will happen.
If nothing happened after the 2008 bailouts on taxpayers' money, of those who stole from them & bankrupted them....

Don't know if it's because we've all fallen into some bizarre online and rl inertia
or if it's because the modern psychological techniques of manipulation & prevention of dissent are now far more sophisticated...

Your entire perspective seems to be apathy of everything. So just close your eyes and go outside and yell at your lawn about the things you have no control over. It seems to help other useless people.

 

[mayfly13]

Your entire perspective seems to be apathy of everything. So just close your eyes and go outside and yell at your lawn about the things you have no control over. It seems to help other useless people.

you think people aren't apathetic?
Maybe that's not the right take on it,
so why then, do you think then that NOTHING is changing?

The global awakening IS there,
people no longer trust Elites and know their games,
the anger was there over Wall Street in 2008, Five Eyes and Comey, Iraq invasion,
the Yellow Vests and Iran Potests, the 0.01% owning 99% of World's wealth
yet.... it's not translating into pragmatic system changes

 

[mayfly13]

Globally, and in all cases nationally, we lack any public consensus on how such things should be improved.

this too maybe
alongside other psychological subtle methods for keeping us ineffective

 

[ll74]

you think people aren't apathetic?
Maybe that's not the right take on it,
so why then, do you think then that NOTHING is changing?

The global awakening IS there,
people no longer trust Elites and know their games,
the anger was there over Wall Street in 2008, Five Eyes and Comey, Iraq invasion,
the Yellow Vests and Iran Potests, the 0.01% owning 99% of World's wealth
yet.... it's not translating into pragmatic system changes

You're a walking apathy definition. Either that or you are wanting revolution.

I doubt the latter though. You're cool with complaining

 

[Sean Renaud]

Well institutions are really hard to break. As for the elites they have successfully dug there way too deep to really do anything about them I mean this last time is the second time this century they have effectively held a gun to our heads and said if you guys don't do this everybody dies.

Which is downright scary to think about. Honestly I think part of the problem is that monopoly laws were written in ancient times. I mean how is Windows not a monoply. You don't see a lot of Apples anymore but they are out there. And I've never actually seen someone run Linux.

How is it that once you boil it down like six companies control all forms of media. When you have that few people in control of everything you don't even have to collude. Worse most news outlets get their stuff from Reuters anyway.

 

[pecksniff]

this too maybe
alongside other psychological subtle methods for keeping us ineffective

You seem to have some kind of persecution complex. The West is not in any conspiracy to keep the Eastern European countries ineffective.

 

[LupusDei]

And in this context, seeing him jump on the "Slava Ukraini" wagon,
paint his twitter account in blue and yellow
felt so ... ludicrous to me.....
I bet many Brits. feel like punching his face.

Well, call it neocolonialism if you must, but Great Britain had worked best part of the past eight years to make this little military miracle in Ukraine happen. It's funny thing that U.S. acted surprised, it wasn't any secret here.

 

[mayfly13]

Well institutions are really hard to break. As for the elites they have successfully dug there way too deep to really do anything about them I mean this last time is the second time this century they have effectively held a gun to our heads and said if you guys don't do this everybody dies.

Which is downright scary to think about. Honestly I think part of the problem is that monopoly laws were written in ancient times. I mean how is Windows not a monoply. You don't see a lot of Apples anymore but they are out there. And I've never actually seen someone run Linux.

How is it that once you boil it down like six companies control all forms of media. When you have that few people in control of everything you don't even have to collude. Worse most news outlets get their stuff from Reuters anyway.

true
Paragraph 2 is particularly interesting for me.

Come to think about it, I realize that it IS nothing new, the 99.9% ruled by a croney Elite happened since Adam and Eve.
The difference for me is that:
1. we've become more globally aware of it over the last few decades, thanks to Wifi.
2. The nuance was a bit different: prior to th BC, the fear of being anihilated violently (by your masters or outside invaders) and the need to belong drove it.
Over the last one and a half thousands of years , as you touched upon, an insane beurocracy also creeped in to keep us enslaved.

 

[mayfly13]

Well, call it neocolonialism if you must, but Great Britain had worked best part of the past eight years to make this little military miracle in Ukraine happen. It's funny thing that U.S. acted surprised, it wasn't any secret here.

what do you mean?
I confess I'm not up-to-date with UK's foreign policies,
only started reading over the last month

Boris Johnson annoys the crap out of me but more on a personal level,
he's such a disingenuous, opportunistic low IQ croney twit.

 

[LupusDei]

what do you mean?

Exactly what I said. Brits trained Ukrainian military for years. The hastily weapon deliveries literally days before wasn't an accident.

 

[mayfly13]

You seem to have some kind of persecution complex. The West is not in any conspiracy to keep the Eastern European countries ineffective.

not this time.

the op was probably frustrated by helplessly watching the Ukraine massacres
and venting: is there something we laypeople can we do? Either the bureaucracy, or the morons operating within it are just inefficient and it will keep going on and on.

I merely changed goal posts a bit, noticing the unchangeable self-perpetuating global system we've all been stuck in for decades.

 

[Sean Renaud]

I don't think it really crept up so much as it jumped down our throats. Part of it is just the world really changed almost overnight. Like the interstate highways, that tunnel between the UK and France, Panama Cannal. Absolutely massive ships, air travel.

If you went back just to the beginning of last century it was near impossible to run businesses the way we do now. It used to take days to get from one end of the country to the other. Now we can fly.

I remember a time before Blockbuster and Video Hollywood. When nearly every rental place was a mom and pops deal. A time when you knew the owners (and could get free posters) Now Blockbuster is long dead. I think the very last one closed a few years back. It was some nobody actually lives here so streaming wasn't a real option.

Part of that problem in a grander sense is the people with all the money are so far removed from the situation that they almost don't exist. As in the Walton family could walk through Walmart with out even a disguise and nobody would know the difference. I personally think its past time we started passing laws for companies just like we do with Congress and countries. I mean any sufficiently large business is virtually a country unto itself. Going back to the banks and automakers no three people should be able to threaten Congress with the collapse of the West and not get laughed out. Instead we had people like Paul Ryan crying on the floor of the Senate that we needed to act and act fast.
While it was before my time it used to be you knew the boss. Its also worth noting in some cases that the elites just create shortages at times. I mean Harvard is like four hundred years old. Some how they never had enough demand to open another campus? They couldn't enough educated to teach.

Going back to the media for a second, news shows SHOULD be focusing on creating an educated and informed society. Not ratings. But when you run a for profit obviously you cover MTV Spring Break not the nuances of how the Middle East works.

 

[mayfly13]

Exactly what I said. Brits trained Ukrainian military for years. The hastily weapon deliveries literally days before wasn't an accident.

aaah... good on them, in this case.
it looks like
--they knew from History that the Russian Imperialistic threat will never disappear
--theybhad good Intel (just like Americans) who warned them over the last decade, that Putin is gearing up
Is that what you meant?

The other question is(it's not mine, I keep hearing it right and left):

While those British/US Military/Intel/Foreign etc etc institutions acted in good faith/out of patriotism to protect Europeans
--was there also a parallel, unrelated Western movement that tried to misuse this situation, to make it worse so they could profit from it?

Too many have made billions from wars, industrymilitary complexes specullators and so on, there's also a bizarre realigning of the rouble-dollar-oil and fertiluzer dependence -whatever paradigm, that will benefit certain interests.

 

[mayfly13]

I don't think it really crept up so much as it jumped down our throats. Part of it is just the world really changed almost overnight. Like the interstate highways, that tunnel between the UK and France, Panama Cannal. Absolutely massive ships, air travel.

If you went back just to the beginning of last century it was near impossible to run businesses the way we do now. It used to take days to get from one end of the country to the other. Now we can fly.

I remember a time before Blockbuster and Video Hollywood. When nearly every rental place was a mom and pops deal. A time when you knew the owners (and could get free posters) Now Blockbuster is long dead. I think the very last one closed a few years back. It was some nobody actually lives here so streaming wasn't a real option.

Part of that problem in a grander sense is the people with all the money are so far removed from the situation that they almost don't exist. As in the Walton family could walk through Walmart with out even a disguise and nobody would know the difference. I personally think its past time we started passing laws for companies just like we do with Congress and countries. I mean any sufficiently large business is virtually a country unto itself.

yup yup! on both

Going back to the banks and automakers no three people should be able to threaten Congress with the collapse of the West and not get laughed out. Instead we had people like Paul Ryan crying on the floor of the Senate that we needed to act and act fast.
While it was before my time it used to be you knew the boss. Its also worth noting in some cases that the elites just create shortages at times. I mean Harvard is like four hundred years old. Some how they never had enough demand to open another campus? They couldn't enough educated to teach.

I'm not uptodate on those, I need to google them

Going back to the media for a second, news shows SHOULD be focusing on creating an educated and informed society. Not ratings. But when you run a for profit obviously you cover MTV Spring Break not the nuances of how the Middle East works.

THAT's Why I and many continued to believe the "Russia is protecting itself against NATO" narrative until recently.

We're neither morons, nor pro-Putinism.
Merely contrarians who distrust every f... thing mainstream massmedia says, R or L,it's either propaganda for their donors, or click-baits.
For me, also because it came from Leftists, whose cancel attitude made me distrust them the most

 

[mayfly13]

THAT's Why I and many continued to believe the "Russia is protecting itself against NATO" narrative until recently.

I meant we believed the "Putin is defending himself against NATO" narrative
until we read History and learned to find countries on a map,
saw the massacre, and heard from Eastern European boomers who've lived similar times.


But you guys who believed the right narrative:
oh please, don't pat yourselves on your backs.
You're just as ignorant of History and Geography, particularly of EE, as we are. You absorbed the narrative just as undiscerningly as we did, because your favorite papers told you to do so.

 

[Chobham]

It's all about geography and demographics.

 

[Sean Renaud]

I meant we believed the "Putin is defending himself against NATO" narrative
until we read History and learned to find countries on a map,
saw the massacre, and heard from Eastern European boomers who've lived similar times.


But you guys who believed the right narrative:
oh please, don't pat yourselves on your backs.
You're just as ignorant of History and Geography, particularly of EE, as we are. You absorbed the narrative just as undiscerningly as we did, because your favorite papers told you to do so.

In fairness I knew about where Ukraine was. I don't think we (or at least me) when Russia claimed self defense. Well for obvious reasons it kinda made sense but it was a don't start nothin, won't be nothing. To a lesser degree I remember when Georgia and Crimea went down and watching the citizens bringing water to the soldiers. I don't know how conquests normally work but I feel like people bringing you water are on SO upset about being taken over.

 

[mayfly13]

In fairness I knew about where Ukraine was. I don't think we (or at least me) when Russia claimed self defense. Well for obvious reasons it kinda made sense but it was a don't start nothin, won't be nothing. To a lesser degree I remember when Georgia and Crimea went down and watching the citizens bringing water to the soldiers. I don't know how conquests normally work but I feel like people bringing you water are on SO upset about being taken over.

I knew about Crimea cause it was talked about +++ in the Global Press
but almost nothing about Georgia, Chetchnia and Kazachstan.
The Press made a bit of hooha when the invasions happened, but then totally forgot about them.

Here is the weird thing for me, now that I'm finally starting to inform myself:

Crimea was taken after an almost unanymous pro-Russia referendum,
it was semi-legitimate because historically Crimea never belonged to Ukraine
THAT's what's pissing Russians off, because massmedia lied.
Both about the so-called atrocities, and about Ukraine's legitimacy.

Whereas true horrors and violations happened in Georgia, Chechnia and Kazachstan, where Putin had no historic legitimacy to intervene,

So why such a difference in volume of coverage?
Maybe?? because Crimea has access to the Black Sea?

 

[pecksniff]

I merely changed goal posts a bit, noticing the unchangeable self-perpetuating global system we've all been stuck in for decades.

So how could it be improved?

 

[Sean Renaud]

The Red Sea is a big deal and if it hasn't been mentioned in this thread they found I believe its natural gas but don't quote me on that. They found resources and that's a follow the money sort of thing.

I wonder what really jumped into Putin's mind attacking in March. Strategically that wasn't particularly wise. Even if Ukraine decided to do exactly what they and fight back they would have a hard time getting the kind of support they have. I mean European winters can get kinda gnarly. Speaking as someone who has spent a little time in Detroit and Cleveland and also does a decent job of keeping somewhat informed. Too hot and too cold are no fucking jokes. Luckily I had access to appropriate gear from sweaters to shorts. If you pay attention getting to hot or two cold you almost always hear about people dying. Honestly we got really lucky last year when that road froze and only got I think it was three kills.

When someone as the ability to kill your power you have a very different conversation than you would otherwise.

As for Ukraine I admit I have limited knowledge of its people. Just its location give or take. I know close to nothing about their history outside anything you can glean taking a peek at Wikipedia. There are lots of countries I don't know a whole lot about. I could find most countries on a map, or close enough if you took all the names off.

Like I've already said though that's a media issue. Also did a quick Google for you.

https://www.marketplace.org/2018/11/13/what-did-america-buy-auto-bailout-and-was-it-worth-it/

 

[Champakian]

And here I always thought that war was the ultimate failure of diplomacy

other than, of course, the Klingon Scenario...

 

[LupusDei]

Maybe?? because Crimea has access to the Black Sea?

Crimea is of utmost geopolitical importance.

The fair solution would be... Independent and Demilitarized Nudist Republic of Crimea. That wouldn't happen of course. In a way it could be worse defeat for Kremlin that giving it back to Ukraine.

It's of course exaggeration to say that who controls Crimea rules the world, but as I said it in 2014, if I was an alien from outer space planning on conquest of Earth...

It's may not be immediately obvious. But it command the sea and have air (and rocket) range to interesting places. And that's before we talk about oil and gas deposits.

The war in Ukraine, the whole Donbas debacle in its entirety, it's all about deflecting from, and forcing legitimacy on annexation of Crimea. And the main prize this current war is being fought for is still Crimea, even if the military action may not move there (although by pure war logic it must if Ukrainians are to liberate Mariopol; on other hand, Sevastopol itself is almost impossible to take).

(Historical aside: when Hitler was confronted by choice where to send his one and only superheavy siege train -- to Petrograd (aka St. Petersburg) or Sevastopol -- he chose Sevastopol.)

As to the so called "referendum" of Crimea. It was conducted without any oversight under martial law of military occupation administration at a time there was effectively a civil war in the host country. It has no legitimacy and there's little doubt it was fixed.

Would you buy results of referendum forced thry today in Kherson?

Crimea has been under effective martial law ever since, with significantly worse repressive regime than mainland Russia and rapidly declining living standards. There's state terror against Crimean Tatars once again. Nothing of that stopped about a million colonists, mostly relatively affluent but delusionally nostalgic retirees to move in enthusiastically. Even though mostly shielded from the problems of the natives, at least some part of those had been being disillusioned to, and now when the war started they discovered they are trapped, Russians do not allow civilians to leave Crimea. Else there would be grand exodus (also, for a betting person, this might be perfect moment to buy a holiday house in Crimea, there's great many for sale).

So it is not certain at all how a fair and unforced vote would go right now. We can speculate it to be almost certain the original population of 2014 would now vote the other way, many who had indeed voted for Russia did it under assumption "it can't be worse" now proven false.