The rhetoric of the minimum wage

[MakersandIce]

(24,650 US) - which in the US would be considered below poverty line.

Bullshit.......not for an individual.

 

[Xelebes]

As defined by the Office of Management and Budget and updated for inflation using the Consumer Price Index, the average poverty threshold for a family of four in 2003 was $18,810; for a family of three, $14,680; for a family of two, $12,015; and for unrelated individuals, $9,393.


Source

Oh.

On the other hand, I've heard people here lament about how Canadian's average income is near poverty by American standards.

 

[MakersandIce]

Oh.

On the other hand, I've heard people here lament about how Canadian's average income is near poverty.

Just because one can't buy what they want doen't mean they are near poverty.

 

[Ishmael]

As defined by the Office of Management and Budget and updated for inflation using the Consumer Price Index, the average poverty threshold for a family of four in 2003 was $18,810; for a family of three, $14,680; for a family of two, $12,015; and for unrelated individuals, $9,393.


Source

HHS (2004) defines it at a higher level.

2004 HHS Poverty Guidelines
Size of
Family Unit
48 Contiguous
States and D.C. Alaska Hawaii
1 $ 9,310 $11,630 $10,700
2 12,490 15,610 14,360
3 15,670 19,590 18,020
4 18,850 23,570 21,680
5 22,030 27,550 25,340
6 25,210 31,530 29,000
7 28,390 35,510 32,660
8 31,570 39,490 36,320
For each additional
person, add
3,180 3,980 3,660

Ishmael

 

[Xelebes]

Just because one can't buy what they want doen't mean they are near poverty.

I'm not saying we live in poverty.

 

[Ishmael]

Just because one can't buy what they want doen't mean they are near poverty.

Depends on how you define 'wants' and 'needs' I suppose.

Ishmael

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

It's a net wash. And it does effect the COL.

Simple economics. I'm not about to pay someone $7/hr. that is only returning $5/hr. worth of labor. To do so would put me out of business. Not a question of if, merely when. So I have two choices to make. I can reduce my staff (labor overhead) and squeeze more productivity out of the existing employees, or I can raise my prices. Or a combination of the two.

Regardless, the net effect of a raise in the minimum wage is BOTH a slow down in hiring AND price increase. Most companies will opt for a combination of smaller staff and higher prices. For those companies/enterprises that are labor intensive, only a price hike saves the business.

On the day of the last staged hike in the minimum wage I was in a 7-11 buying a hot dog. The price of the hot dog had been raised, by mere coincidence that very day, by 20 cents. I asked the clerk if she was going to enjoy her new raise and she replied that she was VERY happy about it. And I'm sure she was until I pointed out that every price in the store had taken an 'up tick' and that she was going to find the same at the local grocery store, etc. And sure enough, all the items on the shelves had moved up in price a notch.

The nut of it is that the cumulative price hike was first applied to those goods most sensitive to labor costs and those goods tend to be those goods that effect the out of pocket costs of the very people the minimum wage hike was supposed to help. Net gain? Zero.

Ishmael

Interesting story, but if only 3% of all hourly workers make the minimum wage or less why did 7-11 have to jack up their prices??

 

[Worm]

If you're over 18, working full time and still getting paid minimum wage you failed at life. Game over. Raising minimum wage is another form of welfare for people who are too stupid or unmotivated to do something for themselves.

 

[MakersandIce]

Depends on how you define 'wants' and 'needs' I suppose.

Ishmael

I want a porterhouse twice daily; I merely need caloric intake.

 

[MakersandIce]

I'm not saying we live in poverty.

You commented on the lamentations of fellow Canadians.....I was just pointing out that they don't understand poverty.

 

[Xelebes]

You commented on the lamentations of fellow Canadians.....I was just pointing out that they don't understand poverty.

No, the lamentations of Americans.

 

[Ishmael]

Interesting story, but if only 3% of all hourly workers make the minimum wage or less why did 7-11 have to jack up their prices??

Not being privy to their balance sheet I can't answer whether they HAD to or not. The fact is, they did. So did the grocery stores. For most of those industries the largest controlable cost is labor. This is also true of their suppliers. I would suspect that their price hikes reflected the increased cost of the wholesale products they sell.

Because many Union contracts are indexed to the minimum wage, price increases hit in places you wouldn't think they would.

Ishmael

 

[MakersandIce]

Oh.

On the other hand, I've heard people here lament about how Canadian's average income is near poverty by American standards.

Does this not refer to Canadians?

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

Not being privy to their balance sheet I can't answer whether they HAD to or not. The fact is, they did. So did the grocery stores. For most of those industries the largest controlable cost is labor. This is also true of their suppliers. I would suspect that their price hikes reflected the increased cost of the wholesale products they sell.

Because many Union contracts are indexed to the minimum wage, price increases hit in places you wouldn't think they would.

Ishmael

Then not being privy to that information you shouldn't make an allusion about why they raised their prices. Perhaps they raised their prices simply because people might blame it on a wage hike & not corporate greed?

 

[Xelebes]

Does this not refer to Canadians?

I was refering to Literotica.

 

[Ishmael]

Then not being privy to that information you shouldn't make an allusion about why they raised their prices. Perhaps they raised their prices simply because people might blame it on a wage hike & not corporate greed?

Really? Then why did the other convenience chains raise their prices too? Did they get together in a secret hideaway and mutually decide that they'd all raise their prices? The anti-trust people would be all over them like stink on shit if there was even a whiff of that sort of thing.

Or perhaps ALL of the suppliers to ALL of the stores got together in Bali and decided to stick it to those big chains.

Do you get a clue as to how silly your 'corporate greed' crap is now?

Ishmael

 

[MakersandIce]

I was refering to Literotica.

Oh.

My mistake.


They still don't understand poverty.

 

[Ishmael]

Oh.

My mistake.


They still don't understand poverty.

But they damn sure "feel" it. *chuckle*

Ishmael

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

Really? Then why did the other convenience chains raise their prices too? Did they get together in a secret hideaway and mutually decide that they'd all raise their prices? The anti-trust people would be all over them like stink on shit if there was even a whiff of that sort of thing.

Or perhaps ALL of the suppliers to ALL of the stores got together in Bali and decided to stick it to those big chains.

Do you get a clue as to how silly your 'corporate greed' crap is now?

Ishmael

I don't know & neither do you. In fact you haven't provided one fact (which are our friends by the way) that ALL convience stores raised their prices. Did you go around the 7-11 and check ALL the prices?

You tried to insinuate that if the minimum wage goes up that the cost of living goes up, but you also provided data saying that only 3% of hourly workers make the minimum wage or less. It looks like such a small percentage of people make the minimum wage I can't see any reason why it would have an effect on prices at all. I've never seen one person in my grocery store who fits the profile of someone who makes minimum wage.

 

[MakersandIce]

It looks like such a small percentage of people make the minimum wage I can't see any reason why it would have an effect on prices at all.

Because when the minimum goes up, so do the rest.

 

[Ishmael]

I don't know & neither do you. In fact you haven't provided one fact (which are our friends by the way) that ALL convience stores raised their prices. Did you go around the 7-11 and check ALL the prices?

You tried to insinuate that if the minimum wage goes up that the cost of living goes up, but you also provided data saying that only 3% of hourly workers make the minimum wage or less. It looks like such a small percentage of people make the minimum wage I can't see any reason why it would have an effect on prices at all. I've never seen one person in my grocery store who fits the profile of someone who makes minimum wage.

The price at every convenience and grocery store up-ticked that same day. You imply it's a vast conspiracy, I'm just saying it's economics 101. Who do you think is closer to the truth?

Ishmael

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

The price at every convenience and grocery store up-ticked that same day. You imply it's a vast conspiracy, I'm just saying it's economics 101. Who do you think is closer to the truth?

Ishmael

I never said that. I simply said you don't have the facts to make the statement you did, and you don't.

 

[Ishmael]

I never said that. I simply said you don't have the facts to make the statement you did, and you don't.

I related an anecdotal story. One that happens to be true. There was NO other event that happened prior to that day that would explain the uptick. It was after the Bush tax cuts and the price of gas was stable at about $1.19/gal.

The uptick perfectly follows the laws of economics as have been known for almost two centuries. In leiu of you coming up with another logical explanation my story, and the hypothesis it supports is perfectly valid.

You say "I don't know" for sure. And you're right. But if the hypothesis fits, you gotta call it quits. Unless you have a hypothesis at least as credible without resorting to wild ass conspiracy theories.

Ishmael

 

[Le Jacquelope]

Here's some people who seem to know what they're talking about too...

http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/will010407.php3

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/WalterEWilliams/2006/08/09/the_minimum_wage_vision

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/ThomasSowell/2006/12/26/a_dangerous_obsession

Those links point to right wing agenda articles that continue to push theory and have absolutely no information as to the actual real world results of a minimum wage increase.

Also they do not address the fact that Congressional Republicans have given themselves a raise repeatedly in the last 12 years.

What? Did I just kill this discussion, too?

 

[RightField]

Canada's economy is much hotter than the US's, particularily in the West where the minimum wages are at 7.50 an hour or higher. In Alberta, due to abnormal labour conditions, no one offers a job opening at minimum wage.

<joking>....yeah, but with the value of the Canadian dollar that's what....15 cents?