The rhetoric of the minimum wage

[Drinking Cap]

There is an interesting discussion about those studies in the wiki link I posted a few pages back.

It didn't take me too many classes in economics to realize that there was a reason it was in the social studies building. You'll have people saying anything causes anything.

I think the people who are vociferously against this increase would like to believe there's irrefutable proof about it's negative effect on job creation. I'm not convinced.

 

[Sean]

I think the people who are vociferously against this increase would like to believe there's irrefutable proof about it's negative effect on job creation. I'm not convinced.

It certainly didn't have that effect when it was introduced in the UK.

 

[Ham Murabi]

I
Granted, I don't personally believe that now is a good time for the wage to increase. In the near future, yes. But not right now..

But if there is no harm in raising the minimum wage, why wait?

 

[Linyari]

I don't believe our economy is at the right place for it. We are in a bit of an inflation right now, whatever else other's may say. Things just aren't terribly good from an economic standpoint. I don't think it would behoove us to do it until the economy stables out a bit.

 

[Cap’n AMatrixca]

I don't believe our economy is at the right place for it. We are in a bit of an inflation right now, whatever else other's may say. Things just aren't terribly good from an economic standpoint. I don't think it would behoove us to do it until the economy stables out a bit.

What has your portfolio done over the last year?

 

[Linyari]

Nothing. I can't afford a portfolio. Not when you combine it with having to take a lesser paying job and a house that has dropped $20K in value.

 

[Linyari]

What has your portfolio done over the last year?

And it's worth noting that a huge portion of the United States also does not have a portfolio so that's not a terribly good indication of the economy. You have to look at it on the whole. Yes, certain groups are doing quite well financially. Not because rich people are evil and the government loves rich people but because certain steps are being taken to make life a bit more profitable for everyone.

But you can't just look at the upper class as a judge for the economy. You have to look at the middle and lower classes and the majority of them aren't doing quite as well. They will. Which isn't to say that it's always going to stay that way.

But you can't believe that our economy is doing wonderfully when a very hefty portion of our population is having a devil of a time making ends meet. Especially combined with the large number of house foreclosures as well.

 

[Cap’n AMatrixca]

That's class rhetoric.

I remember the Nixon/Ford/Carter years and America is doing just fine. I'm not rich, a million in assets, so I'm middle class and vested in my county and economy (as well as China's).

I am doing quite well and I started out of the Salvation Army in the 80's...

This is the only country in the world in which that can happen and 30 million Mexicans fucking agree with me.

 

[Linyari]

That's class rhetoric.

I remember the Nixon/Ford/Carter years and America is doing just fine. I'm not rich, a million in assets, so I'm middle class and vested in my county and economy (as well as China's).

I am doing quite well and I started out of the Salvation Army in the 80's...

This is the only country in the world in which that can happen and 30 million Mexicans fucking agree with me.

See, you seem to think that I believe that it's going to be better elsewhere. Why does it have to be either or? Why can't a person see a problem that may need to be fixed without immediately thinking that this country is the worst place on earth.

America IS the land of opportunity but it's doing some things wrong. Let's look at the issue of manufacturing in the South. Nearly all of it has now been outsourced. Most of the factories have been shut down and moved overseas.

For the record, I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing. The world changes and you have to change with it. In some instances, the South has been a bit behind. Even back in the 1800's, the South always was a bit behind as far as developing went. It's stayed that way. And while I think that is largely because of Sherman's Total War policy and raizing the South to the ground so they could just get the war over with and stop dying (one has to believe that having to build itself back up again would put an area a few steps behind), it doesn't change the fact that as an area, we must evolve.

So, I don't really see anything wrong with the outsourcing. However, I think it was done improperly. There was no preparation for it. All of a sudden you have thousands of Americans out of work in a place that has no other work except for Customer Service, which as general rule, doesn't pay all that well depending on position in the company. That's a HUGE drain on the economy.

People declare that these factory workers should have gotten college degrees, often forgetting that when many of these people started working at the factories, college degrees were not the norm. That the average person graduated high school, got a job and got married and was able to support themselves for the rest of their lives. Instead, we've got displaced 40 and 50 year old workers who are largely unskilled. 40 and 50 year old workers who didn't know the axe was going to fall until the last minute. Definitely not enough time for them to go out and get educations to get more jobs. Especially since those jobs didn't exist in the surrounding areas. And it's all well and good to tell someone to move, but what do they do with the present house that they have a mortage on. That won't sell because no one wants to move to a dying factory town? How many people that are starting out in a different job market can afford both a mortgage and rent?

Things like this effect the economy. They represent a huge portion of the American worker (or non-worker as the case may be). They represent a huge portion of the population in this area.

Sure, I think it's okay that we outsourced, but there needs to be checks in place before we displace so many workers. Each of those workers ends up on unemployment and many more end up on medicaid or other financial assistance programs. All that is an even bigger drain on the economy.

Is it possible to overcome your job being outsourced in a place with few jobs? Oh yes. The local colleges here have programs specifically for people who used to be factory workers and are looking to gain other skills to make themselves employable. Cities are offering incentives for companies to move down here to supply jobs. The largest factory near here has been demolished and is being turned into a biotech research facility. All great things happening. But these things take time. And it's in that time before issues such as this are fixed that the idea that the economy is perfect is laughed at.

Yes, 80 billion Mexicans are moving to America because it gives them a chance at a better life. But even they aren't going to acheive that better life as soon as they get here. Even an outsourced worker isn't going to be okay as soon as the ball drops. And when that many people are finding it hard to feed their families, it's going to affect the economy negatively. Or is there another reason why retail sales were not as high as they should have been for the past couple of years?

 

[Comshaw]

Without reading this whole damn thread, which I don't have either the wish nor the time to do, I'll address Ish's initial comments.

According to these guys, The Fiscal Policy Institute a higher minimum wage actually produce jobs and is good for the economy.

Sounds like they just might know what they're talkin' 'bout too.

If their assertions are correct, then even if rhetoric is involved, a higher minimum wage is good for the country and our economy.





Comshaw






Comshaw

 

[RightField]

Something doesn't make sense here. In the article, they selectively choose information to paint a rosy picture and talk about how great the economy is in New York and other high-minimum wage states that they say debunks the "simplistic" laws of supply and demand, while on the same web site in the next section over, they bemoan how bad the economy is in NY and talk about how the "working people" of NY are not benefitting from the tenuous recovery. Which is it? Could it be that the story varies depending on what cause they're advocating?

They also say that employment wasn't adversely effected because "A more nuanced model of how the economy operates has superceded the simplistic supply and demand theoretical model that is the basis for this prediction. This more sophisticated labor market model suggests that employers are likely to respond to a wage increase by improving the skills of their workers and becoming more efficient, and that slightly higher wages would be offset by savings from reduced turnover and higher productivity."

"Nuanced" is one of John Kerry's favorite words and I think he used it to describe his bravery on the Swiftboats. I think it means "Let me explain to you how what YOU think is common sense is not right and how it really supports my <convoluted> position". It's the same approach that snake oil salesmen use. But I digress:

Productivity has been booming all over the country over the last decade for many reasons, not the least of which is the ubiquitous availability of inexpensive computing power and how many people have been innovative in many industries in harnessing that computer power. Productivity gains are usually the result of additional capital and innovations and to a limited degree, training. One would think that productivity is independent of minimum wage changes and that the link between productivity increases and slight variations in minimum wage is very small and could not be construed as causal. They clearly say it's not causal, but they imply it along the lines of saying "Every time I pee in the toilet, the stock price of IBM goes up, but there's no causal relationship". Do I sound like Roy Rogers or what?

If an employer is "improving the skills of their workers and becoming more efficient", that implies that the positions are being made to be higher value and are no longer going to be "entry-level" and therefore entry level jobs will start dissappearing and that, in and of itself, implies a common sense reduction in job availability despite all that great pee in the toilet. It also implies that higher premium skills are more valuable which is what the unions like to hear which is a "legislated" pay increase. This kind of crap leads to inflation, instability in markets and prices and really screws things up for many years unless the economy is really robust in which case its just slightly hidden until the economy starts to spudder (which it will when the dems put off making the tax reductions permanent which is their aim).

The fact that employment has increased at the same time is more attributable to overall productivity increases, the reduction in the cost of capital (technology innovations) and the tax decreases across the economy overcoming the slight adjustment to the minimum wage. The variations in employment across states is more heavily influenced by industry and market segments than slight variations in the minimum wage no matter how powerful that pee is.

The intro says that they're a non-partisan organization. The New York Times says that they provide "All the news that's fit to print" and the National Enquirer talks about "Aliens amongst us" too. Did you notice that one of their lead economists came from the "Working Families Party". These are some of the titles from the same web page dated from the same period.

Social & Economic Conditions
Labor Day 2005: The State of Working New York 2005: Treading Water in a Tenuous Recovery. The tenuous economic recovery of the past two years has been characterized by such weak wage growth that most of New York’s working families have been left treading water, according to the latest edition of the Fiscal Policy Institute’s biennial report on The State of Working New York.

The Tentative Recovery is Still a Long Way from Restoring Jobs, Wages and Incomes to Pre-Recession Levels for New York City's Low- and Moderate-Income Households. Testimony by James Parrott, FPI Chief Economist, before the New York City Rent Guidelines Board. May 2, 2005.

piffle.

 

[RightField]

See, you seem to think that I believe that it's going to be better elsewhere. Why does it have to be either or? Why can't a person see a problem that may need to be fixed without immediately thinking that this country is the worst place on earth.

America IS the land of opportunity but it's doing some things wrong. Let's look at the issue of manufacturing in the South. Nearly all of it has now been outsourced. Most of the factories have been shut down and moved overseas.

For the record, I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing. The world changes and you have to change with it. In some instances, the South has been a bit behind. Even back in the 1800's, the South always was a bit behind as far as developing went. It's stayed that way. And while I think that is largely because of Sherman's Total War policy and raizing the South to the ground so they could just get the war over with and stop dying (one has to believe that having to build itself back up again would put an area a few steps behind), it doesn't change the fact that as an area, we must evolve.

So, I don't really see anything wrong with the outsourcing. However, I think it was done improperly. There was no preparation for it. All of a sudden you have thousands of Americans out of work in a place that has no other work except for Customer Service, which as general rule, doesn't pay all that well depending on position in the company. That's a HUGE drain on the economy.

People declare that these factory workers should have gotten college degrees, often forgetting that when many of these people started working at the factories, college degrees were not the norm. That the average person graduated high school, got a job and got married and was able to support themselves for the rest of their lives. Instead, we've got displaced 40 and 50 year old workers who are largely unskilled. 40 and 50 year old workers who didn't know the axe was going to fall until the last minute. Definitely not enough time for them to go out and get educations to get more jobs. Especially since those jobs didn't exist in the surrounding areas. And it's all well and good to tell someone to move, but what do they do with the present house that they have a mortage on. That won't sell because no one wants to move to a dying factory town? How many people that are starting out in a different job market can afford both a mortgage and rent?

Things like this effect the economy. They represent a huge portion of the American worker (or non-worker as the case may be). They represent a huge portion of the population in this area.

Sure, I think it's okay that we outsourced, but there needs to be checks in place before we displace so many workers. Each of those workers ends up on unemployment and many more end up on medicaid or other financial assistance programs. All that is an even bigger drain on the economy.

Is it possible to overcome your job being outsourced in a place with few jobs? Oh yes. The local colleges here have programs specifically for people who used to be factory workers and are looking to gain other skills to make themselves employable. Cities are offering incentives for companies to move down here to supply jobs. The largest factory near here has been demolished and is being turned into a biotech research facility. All great things happening. But these things take time. And it's in that time before issues such as this are fixed that the idea that the economy is perfect is laughed at.

Yes, 80 billion Mexicans are moving to America because it gives them a chance at a better life. But even they aren't going to acheive that better life as soon as they get here. Even an outsourced worker isn't going to be okay as soon as the ball drops. And when that many people are finding it hard to feed their families, it's going to affect the economy negatively. Or is there another reason why retail sales were not as high as they should have been for the past couple of years?

This is a far more difficult situation. What do you do in a factory town when the factory shuts down? I would guess the only thing to do is to move to where there are more jobs even though this is a hardship for many people who have roots in a locality. I've moved four times and while it's difficult, it's better than starving or settling into depression.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

This is a far more difficult situation. What do you do in a factory town when the factory shuts down? I would guess the only thing to do is to move to where there are more jobs even though this is a hardship for many people who have roots in a locality. I've moved four times and while it's difficult, it's better than starving or settling into depression.

You haven't seen the horror of "just in time employment", have you?

Moving once is one thing; having to move repeatedly because all the good paying jobs keep going overseas, is another.

It's utterly ruinous for kids to be uprooted like that, constantly.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

Without reading this whole damn thread, which I don't have either the wish nor the time to do, I'll address Ish's initial comments.

According to these guys, The Fiscal Policy Institute a higher minimum wage actually produce jobs and is good for the economy.

Sounds like they just might know what they're talkin' 'bout too.

If their assertions are correct, then even if rhetoric is involved, a higher minimum wage is good for the country and our economy.

I see no one responded to this...

 

[Cap’n AMatrixca]

This is a far more difficult situation. What do you do in a factory town when the factory shuts down? I would guess the only thing to do is to move to where there are more jobs even though this is a hardship for many people who have roots in a locality. I've moved four times and while it's difficult, it's better than starving or settling into depression.

KANSAS was dying on the vine, so after four generations, I moved my family to a nice quiet place of affluence and opportunity. KANSAS will always be there and even recently my wife was hired by the competition to the same job with better hours, shorter work days, better pay, and less of a commute. Life is what you make of it, unless you're LT and you know the whole world is agaist you because you weren't born rich, white, and Ivy League like his hero Jean Forbes Kerrie...

 

[Ishmael]

There is a growing body of work out there that suggests increasing the minimum wage has the largest negative effect on the young and/or disadvataged worker.

Studies are showing that it increases both teen unemployment and drop-out rate. Those teens willing to sacrifice their future for short-term monetary gain will drop out of school to concentrate on the "higher" pay due to an increase in the minimum wage. Conversely, employers will in many cases opt to hire an older employee with more experience at a higher rate than a young unskilled worker at minimum wage when forced to decide how to allocate resources.

Ishmael

 

[Cap’n AMatrixca]

Without reading this whole damn thread, which I don't have either the wish nor the time to do, I'll address Ish's initial comments.

According to these guys, The Fiscal Policy Institute a higher minimum wage actually produce jobs and is good for the economy.

Sounds like they just might know what they're talkin' 'bout too.

If their assertions are correct, then even if rhetoric is involved, a higher minimum wage is good for the country and our economy.





Comshaw






Comshaw

Here's some people who seem to know what they're talking about too...

http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/will010407.php3

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/WalterEWilliams/2006/08/09/the_minimum_wage_vision

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/ThomasSowell/2006/12/26/a_dangerous_obsession

 

[Cap’n AMatrixca]

Hey, moanin' bro.

What are the odds that comshaw is done reading on the subject?

 

[Ishmael]

Hey, moanin' bro.

What are the odds that comshaw is done reading on the subject?

He's read what he's wanted to read. There are LOT's of studies out there, all weighted to their individual POV. However, there are MORE studies concerning the negative impacts of a minimum wage hike on certain sectors of the work force and the miinimum wage work force specifically.

Most of the 'pro' studies attempt to relate minimum wage hikes to the general economy. Considering that the general economy has been growing almost every year since minimum wage laws were enacted the results of those studies are foregone conclussions. If one were to take the results seriously as to what the authors of those studies have tried to prove, why should we stop at $7.50/hr? If higher minimum wages really are good for the economy then wouldn't $30/hr be a real shot in the arm?

Of course even those that support the minimum wage hikes would say, "Don't be ridiculous!!" But that is exactly what they're trying to have you believe when they trot out the studies that they do. I'm not being ridiculous at all, I'm merely following their own studies to their inescapable conclussion that $30/hr would be even better for the economy than $7.50/hr.

Ishmael

 

[Cap’n AMatrixca]

Yeah, like, ya know, who, like, ya know, can support, you know, a family of like four for $7.50 an hour?

It just can't be done! Why I make $17.56 and I can, like, you know, barely make ends meet.

Wanna, like, you know, come over and play my new X-box?

 

[unregistered]

 

[unregistered]

 

[Cap’n AMatrixca]

Did his ideas pan out?




Moanin'

 

[Ishmael]

I'll go with Milton Fredman who said, "We regard the Minimum wage rate as one of the most, if not the most, antiblack laws on the statute books."

Historically it was. As a matter of fact you can trace most regulatory statutes on the books back to discrimination against one minority or another. Not in their wording or how they were 'sold' to the public, but rather in their net effect.

If one was to look at the drop out rate in the schools, particularly in urban schools, based on racial qualifiers, and then factor in the local unemployment rate for those age groups based on racial qualifiers, I'm sure you would see the same effects.

Ishmael

 

[unregistered]