The rhetoric of the minimum wage

[DavidJericho]

Oh but the issue IS about the existance of the minimum wage. Some here, Ishmael for one, advocate abolishing it entirely. I'd lay odds that Vetteman would too.

I mean hell, those dumb ass burger flippers should have to work 120 hours a week to afford basic necessities, so long as he's not one of those burger flippers why should he care? He might have to pay a nickel more for his Whopper if they raise the wages they pay those workers.

I believe there should be a minimum so that all companies are playing on a level field. I don't care if someone has to work long hours to pay for what they want (what they need is another issue that we would probably differ on as well). I worked long hours most of my life and went to school at the same time, eventually earning a Doctorate. Now I work because I want to not because I need to. In my opinion, I did nothing anyone else could do and had no advantage that is not available to everyone else in this country.

Life is about choices and we should all take ownership of the choices, good and bad, that we've made in life.

 

[kbate]

I see Vetteman dragged you right over the top too..

Your idea that minimum wage should provide:

1. housing
2. transportation
3. health care
4. food
5. entertainment
6. utilities

for the worker and a family

isn't over the top?

Should we adjust the minimum wage for locality also?

 

[Sean]

Your idea that minimum wage should provide:

1. housing
2. transportation
3. health care
4. food
5. entertainment
6. utilities

for the worker and a family

isn't over the top?

Coupled with socialised medicine and affordable housing programs, it is quite capable of providing all of the above.

 

[Ulaven_Demorte]

I believe there should be a minimum so that all companies are playing on a level field. I don't care if someone has to work long hours to pay for what they want (what they need is another issue that we would probably differ on as well). I worked long hours most of my life and went to school at the same time, eventually earning a Doctorate. Now I work because I want to not because I need to. In my opinion, I did nothing anyone else could do and had no advantage that is not available to everyone else in this country.

Life is about choices and we should all take ownership of the choices, good and bad, that we've made in life.

This is why in my definition of a "living wage" Mansions, Ferraris, and Caviar were not mentioned. The minimum wage should be sufficient to provide basic necessities, not luxury items such as the Plasma HD TV kbate mentioned.

The minimum wage should be tied to inflation, otherwise wages for the lowest earners actually decrease in real terms every year that there is no increase.

 

[Explaura]

Your idea that minimum wage should provide:

1. housing
2. transportation
3. health care
4. food
5. entertainment
6. utilities

for the worker and a family

isn't over the top?

Should we adjust the minimum wage for locality also?

I have lived pretty comfortably on minimum wage. I didn't have health insurance or a car.. but I did save about 100$ a month..

 

[unregistered]

 

[DavidJericho]

An interesting read.

 

[Explaura]

Please don't be silly, those who testify before Congress for the minimum wage are not the poor, they are members of organized labor who understand better than most that a higher minimum wage protects their member from competition from below. It's limits the supply of incoming labor at the bottom of the wage scale thus bidding up the wages of their existing membership.

You don't suppose it could be both... protect workers from expliotation by employers AND avoid competition for honest jobs by exploitable immigrants..

 

[unregistered]

 

[kbate]

It's about charity, getting something for nothing, and limiting the supply of labor against the demand to bid up existing wage rates.

Don't forget the additional $0.45/hour that the federal government rakes in for every hour worked.

 

[Explaura]

I don't think so, state laws go a long way to protect most workers these days. The Minimum Wage law has been politicized for the purpose of garnering votes not to protect workers. On it's own, and in the context of todays labor laws, it makes little economic sense. It's about charity, getting something for nothing, and limiting the supply of labor against the demand to bid up existing wage rates.

Well, while I agree that state and federal minimum wage laws are redundant, I would say that otherwise I disagree.

What you argue would be more true if there was perfect competition for jobs. Which there isn't. People can't just quit and get a better job in a lot of places in this country if they are not being paid what they are worth. There are lots of signifigant costs to relocation, and there are all kinds of costs associated with taking jobs which arent suitable for one reason or another. When people have little to no resources in the first place, these things can keep them in a job with a wage far below the equilibrium rate. In these cases minimum wage laws just correct a market failure.

 

[unregistered]

 

[Explaura]

People can't just quit and get a better job in a lot of places in this country if they are not being paid what they are worth. There are lots of signifigant costs to relocation, and there are all kinds of costs associated with taking jobs which arent suitable for one reason or another. When people have little to no resources in the first place, these things can keep them in a job with a wage far below the equilibrium rate. In these cases minimum wage laws just correct a market failure.

In practical terms, this pretty much amounts to a tarriff on changing jobs. I am sure you would agree that if you had to pay 20$ every time you wanted to try a new kind of soap, it would make you less likely to shop around for the best brand. And because economic decisions are made at the margin, the most popular brand could get away with giving you a crappier and crappier product until you were willing to buy a 23$ bar of soap as an alternative. That is seriously freaking crappy soap.. Or a seriously freaking crappy job.

 

[Explaura]

We can agree to disagree, it isn't my purpose to impose my beliefs on you, only to voice them. One thing you should remember, our system is not perfect but it is the best for the most people and that is all we can expect and still be a free people. It is not the purview of government to employ everyone, or to coerce employers to pay people more than they can recover in the market place.

Absolutely

I love talking about this stuff though.. I almost even drew a graph just now!

 

[unregistered]

 

[garbage can]

The Democrats are going to give Americans a 'raise.'

Really?

I didn't now the america worked for the Democratic party. Or maybe they just think we do. Either way rather pompous rhetoric.

Anyone want to make some wagers on the unemployment rate starting to creep up and how long it will take?

Ishmael

I haven't read this thread, but here's my take.

Unemployment may creep up (it certainly won't go down)

But more importantly, the federal government has no fucking business in wage control. This is a states rights issue.

 

[Cap’n AMatrixca]

Democrat law makers know the truth of what will happen which is why they want it phased in and not done at once. If it were to have no effect on the economy, then just upping the rate all at once is no big deal. They just want to fool you again...

 

[DavidJericho]

I haven't read this thread, but here's my take.

Unemployment may creep up (it certainly won't go down)

But more importantly, the federal government has no fucking business in wage control. This is a states rights issue.

Interstate Commerce Clause

 

[Drinking Cap]

The problem, IMO, with this sort of thing is that, for example, if you link the minum wage to something like the CPI you create a closed loop. Any increase in the minimum wage raises the CPI which would trigger an increase in the minumum wage and you just continue in that loop.

That's a fair point but it's not like you'd see an immediate and significant jump in the CPI. It would be a small, gradual increase and it's impact on job creation, which I believe is fairly minor anyway, would probably be lessened by small annual increases than by large, infrequent jumps.

Anyways the argument, that isn't mine, is just that if you believe in the minimum wage at all as an instrument of social justice then not allowing it to increase to keep up with costs is ridiculous.

 

[Drinking Cap]

Actually it was never intended to be a living wage, it was intended to be an entry level wage that would allow younger workers with few skills to gain on the job training and the motivation to move up the wage scale.

Considering it was originally a part of the National Industry Recovery Act, it's pretty fucking unlikely that it was aimed at young workers. It's not like FDR, in the middle of the great depression, was trying to think up ways to motivate kids to work.

 

[Ham Murabi]

Considering it was originally a part of the National Industry Recovery Act, it's pretty fucking unlikely that it was aimed at young workers. It's not like FDR, in the middle of the great depression, was trying to think up ways to motivate kids to work.

Considering it's a Depression-era law, it's further proof FDR was a fucking fool for imposing something that would hinder job creation.

 

[Drinking Cap]

Considering it's a Depression-era law, it's further proof FDR was a fucking fool for imposing something that would hinder job creation.

Considering all of the various times that a minimum wage has been imposed/raised, one would think that there would be enough evidence of a significant causal link between it and hindered job creation for this not to be a debate anymore. I'm not sure there is.

 

[DavidJericho]

Considering all of the various times that a minimum wage has been imposed/raised, one would think that there would be enough evidence of a significant causal link between it and hindered job creation for this not to be a debate anymore. I'm not sure there is.

There is an interesting discussion about those studies in the wiki link I posted a few pages back.

 

[Linyari]

I agree that minimum wage is not intended as a living wage. I know that it is merely meant to make sure that the average wage slave can't be completely taken advantage of.

But I don't think that this means that we shouldn't increase the minimum wage on occasion. As the cost of everything gets higher, it makes sense that the level of what is considered the bare minimum should go up. What was once minimum wage decades ago would be considered slave wages now a days. Is it so outlandish that the wage should increase from time to time as the cost of living increases.

Granted, I don't personally believe that now is a good time for the wage to increase. In the near future, yes. But not right now. I think addressing the issue of raising minimum wage is ignoring a much larger problem in our country. The number of people that largely live off of minimum wage is not that high in our society. It's not going to solve the larger problem of the middle class not being able to afford healthcare, despite being a two income household, and that the average middle class family often lives paycheck to paycheck. Raising minimum wage isn't going to fix that and that dollar or so increase isn't going to make that big of a difference to most.

Granted, the last time I made minimum wage, I was in high school working at McD's and minimum wage was $4.25/hour. Which was still not enough for me to be able to get my license as I couldn't afford South Florida car insurance on that paycheck. But as someone whose partner makes quite a bit more than that an hour and we still live below the poverty line and have very little debt compared to the rest of the US, I know that raising the minimum wage seems more like a showy fix to placate the masses more than anything else. I say that and I'm a liberal who generally votes Democrat more often than not.

 

[Cap’n AMatrixca]

It's a government price control. No good can come of that.

What perspective does a national minimum wage have when you compare Mississippi to New Jersey?