The rhetoric of the minimum wage

[Ishmael]

Amen Vetteman.

von Humboldt

You really liked that book, didn't you?

Ishmael

 

[bronzeage]

Nope not at all, just one kind of simple job that doesn't exist anymore because of the minimum wage.

I'm making the point that despite the lack of coercion supposedly free people are prevented from engaging in economic activity beneficial to both by government edict.

The law plainly discriminates against inner city youth with lower skill levels who might agree to go to work for lesser wages in order to gain on the job training and the opportunity to make better wages later. When the government decides that an employer must add an extra level of charity to the real worth of that persons skills it precludes the employment of that person. It is a mystery to me why the country is better off not employing these youngsters when there are other options, namely one's individual freedom to choose.

The service station attendent lost out to the convience store clerk when it was realised a mini-mart made much more money per square foot than a service station with service bays ever could.

Full service stations tried to sell gas at a couple cents extra per gallon, but it didn't pay. Market forces at work.

I used to supervise a crew that included about 5 low wage positions. The miniumum wage didn't matter much, because I couldn't get anyone who was worth the 3 days it took to show them the job, for less than 25 cents over minimum. I was drawing mostly from inner city youth, with lower skills. Market forces at work again.

 

[RightField]

Night shift is here. What's up?

 

[RightField]

I would be curious to research the effects of minimum wage and job creation. All logic says that there's a relationship, but the example in Oregon cited above seems contradictory. I would like to find out why it was an exception because exceptions are problematic. Fortunately, there's usually a logical explanation for the exception.

 

[RightField]

You really liked that book, didn't you?

Ishmael

Is Von Humbolt the economist that Reagan used to cite, the supply side guy?

 

[RightField]

Dam, killed another thread!

 

[DavidJericho]

Dam, killed another thread!

http://www.arizona-leisure.com/gfx/hoover-dam-photo-3.gif

 

[Ishmael]

I would be curious to research the effects of minimum wage and job creation. All logic says that there's a relationship, but the example in Oregon cited above seems contradictory. I would like to find out why it was an exception because exceptions are problematic. Fortunately, there's usually a logical explanation for the exception.

Actually it's not. Oregon is an anomally. The state went into hyper-growth about the time that law was inacted. The bulk of the job growth being in the hi-tech sector. Sooo, you had a lot of very highly paid people moving to the state for reasons of environment and 'quality of life' and such shit. Quite naturally the service sector had to grow to accomodate the need for these hi-tech workers to have something to do with their disposable income.

This same economic model applies anywhere there is a 'boom' environment.

It's another case of a fact in isolation being used to "prove" a larger model.

If you wanted to see wages go up at the low end, it would be just as effective to run the illegals out of the country. Supply and demand works just as effectively on labor forces as they do goods.

Ishmael

 

[Ishmael]

Is Von Humbolt the economist that Reagan used to cite, the supply side guy?

No, he was an 18th century German philosopher. The book refered to is "On the Limits of State Action." He was also a noted educator.

Ishmael

 

[unregistered]

 

[Ishmael]

No one will come out and clean your windows at the convience store either despite the demand....government intervention at work.

Bronzeage is more right than wrong there vette.

The explosion of the mini-marts coincided with the $1.75 gas of the Carter years. Minimum wage issues were only of marginal causation. Once the public had been indoctrinated into the 'serviceless' economy it was all over for the full service concern.

On the other had it did leave the market open for niche concerns like 'Oil is Us', 'We Stuff Your Muffler', 'Ball Ur Joints', and etc. So now we save money on our gas and then piss it away running to hell and gone getting all the other shit done.

Ishmael

 

[unregistered]

 

[Ishmael]

I didn't say that Bronzeage was wrong. I only used the gas station job as an example of the type of work that isn't available because of the minimum wage.

I understand. Just wasn't the best example.

Ishmael

 

[NoFatChicks]

minimum wage is great,yeah right!

 

[ksmybuttons]

Actually it's not. Oregon is an anomally. The state went into hyper-growth about the time that law was inacted. The bulk of the job growth being in the hi-tech sector. Sooo, you had a lot of very highly paid people moving to the state for reasons of environment and 'quality of life' and such shit. Quite naturally the service sector had to grow to accomodate the need for these hi-tech workers to have something to do with their disposable income.

This same economic model applies anywhere there is a 'boom' environment.

It's another case of a fact in isolation being used to "prove" a larger model.

If you wanted to see wages go up at the low end, it would be just as effective to run the illegals out of the country. Supply and demand works just as effectively on labor forces as they do goods.

Ishmael

This is uninformed misinformation. Oregon went into a deep recession following the .com problems and we will just be feeling the positive effects beginning in the tax period for 2006. We had one of the highest unemployment rates in the country for a couple of years. Our high tech industry bellied up...just talk to the people from Tektronix. Intel is going oversees as we speak, including development. Plants were built and never occupied.

We did make it through, though. Maybe look into why that happened. It has more to do with sustainability and smaller, fairer employers -- people with some integrity where personal power and wealth aren't the end goal.

 

[Ishmael]

This is uninformed misinformation. Oregon went into a deep recession following the .com problems and we will just be feeling the positive effects beginning in the tax period for 2006. We had one of the highest unemployment rates in the country for a couple of years. Our high tech industry bellied up...just talk to the people from Tektronix. Intel is going oversees as we speak, including development. Plants were built and never occupied.

We did make it through, though. Maybe look into why that happened. It has more to do with sustainability and smaller, fairer employers -- people with some integrity where personal power and wealth aren't the end goal.

All I have to do is look at your population growth and mean income.

Ishmael

 

[ksmybuttons]

All I have to do is look at your population growth and mean income.

Ishmael

Well, do that. And post it. Be sure to note the cuts in essential services that we have gone through, too.

 

[Mamid]

Minimum wage is what an employer is required to pay you, not what they are willing to pay you.

there's an employer in town here with about 2k employees and they are continuously scratching their heads as to why there's such a high turn around.

Penalt can go into that far better than I. I just want to take the middle and upper management and slap some sense into them. If they want their skilled workers to stay at such low wages, they need to have better incentives and no, medical etc isn't a bonus since that comes out of their own wages, not the employer's here in BC. The employer has to meet some, but not all.

So, even though Penalt is not making minimum wage, with all the deductions he's required to have (income tax, medical, and a lot more) he's making about 2-3$ under minimum wage.

 

[Ishmael]

Minimum wage is what an employer is required to pay you, not what they are willing to pay you.

there's an employer in town here with about 2k employees and they are continuously scratching their heads as to why there's such a high turn around.

Penalt can go into that far better than I. I just want to take the middle and upper management and slap some sense into them. If they want their skilled workers to stay at such low wages, they need to have better incentives and no, medical etc isn't a bonus since that comes out of their own wages, not the employer's here in BC. The employer has to meet some, but not all.

So, even though Penalt is not making minimum wage, with all the deductions he's required to have (income tax, medical, and a lot more) he's making about 2-3$ under minimum wage.

Well, you nailed it here. The job isn't worth the salary and they suffer high turnover. That's a management decision. They'll live or die with it.

Ishmael

 

[Mamid]

it gets even better than that.

McDs have higher and more frequent wage increases than that place. 0.25$/hr every few months at McDs vs .07$/hr for the place Penalt works at.

The only reason why he won't work at McDs is because his heart needs him to sit down at the job. If he didn't have to worry about his heart/blood pressure problems, he'd be working for a buddy of his for about 18$/hr. But if he worked there, he'd have to pay all his own medical and other employement insurance and taxes.

He's worth 18$/hr at the other job, but his body can't do it anymore. He's worth more than the 10.50 he currently gets at that job, but they won't give him a raise this year because he's been on paternity leave and he was not quite making "service levels" that I'm pretty sure were set too high. I'm not the only one who complains about those levels too. Every single employee does.

Me? I do the odd secret shop. I don't get anything near the compensation I should for wht I do. I get $10 per shop and if I am required to buy things, I get some of it reinbursed. But really, I get maybe 5$/hr or less since the paperwork can be tedious at times. Nor do I get any gas for the drive. I was offered $25.00 in gas money to drive from Vancouver to Fort Nelson BC to do a shop there. That wouldn't have paid for the gas for 1/4 of the way there, nevermind the hotel fees and more. So I laughed and instead put out the call for more secret shoppers. (yes, the place also does the US too)

 

[Ishmael]

it gets even better than that.

McDs have higher and more frequent wage increases than that place. 0.25$/hr every few months at McDs vs .07$/hr for the place Penalt works at.

The only reason why he won't work at McDs is because his heart needs him to sit down at the job. If he didn't have to worry about his heart/blood pressure problems, he'd be working for a buddy of his for about 18$/hr. But if he worked there, he'd have to pay all his own medical and other employement insurance and taxes.

He's worth 18$/hr at the other job, but his body can't do it anymore. He's worth more than the 10.50 he currently gets at that job, but they won't give him a raise this year because he's been on paternity leave and he was not quite making "service levels" that I'm pretty sure were set too high. I'm not the only one who complains about those levels too. Every single employee does.

Me? I do the odd secret shop. I don't get anything near the compensation I should for wht I do. I get $10 per shop and if I am required to buy things, I get some of it reinbursed. But really, I get maybe 5$/hr or less since the paperwork can be tedious at times. Nor do I get any gas for the drive. I was offered $25.00 in gas money to drive from Vancouver to Fort Nelson BC to do a shop there. That wouldn't have paid for the gas for 1/4 of the way there, nevermind the hotel fees and more. So I laughed and instead put out the call for more secret shoppers. (yes, the place also does the US too)

Every individual has a reason for making the decisions they make. That is NOT a sound basis for national law.

Ishmael

 

[MakersandIce]

Me? I do the odd secret shop. I don't get anything near the compensation I should for wht I do.

Just what do you contribute to society?

 

[Penalt]

erg... hold on.. was logged in with his account.,..

 

[Mamid]

secret shopping helps businesses improve their customer service.

besides, I'm a stay at home mother raising my children.

if you don't think its a job, you are sorely mistaken.

 

[MakersandIce]

secret shopping helps businesses improve their customer service.

besides, I'm a stay at home mother raising my children.if you don't think its a job, you are sorely mistaken.

Bullshit

Then don't bitch about your pay.

Haha