The Real Danger of a Democrat in 2008

amicus

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This is a political thread, obviously, but I want to word it so as to not incur the usual rancor of the Left when challenged.


Rather than address Partisan issues, and there are many, I choose to address a more basic danger that could affect the entire nation and all who reside here.

In less than a year the Primary Elections will begin. Although there seems to be an eerie quietude insofar as debate of the issues is concerned, when the word wars begin, the real ‘danger’, I propose, will not be discussed.

The ‘social’ issues, Abortion, Gay Marriage and the Middle East war will most likely get top billing, followed on a lesser scale by Education matters and possibly the ‘entitlement’ programs, such as Social Security and Health Care.

I am going to develop my point slowly, so please bear with me and try to understand that I do not bring this up as a chosen political ‘flame’ thread, rather, the theme occurred to me through a recent acquaintance I made and has slowly taken shape over several days.

I have been digging tree stumps and rocks from a garden area for several days now, weather permitting, (it rains prodigiously in Western Oregon this time of year), and during my forays in the mud, a gentleman in his forties ambled by and visited several times, even offering to help dig some roots and pry out the six to eight inch in diameter stumps.

He is a bit of a social gadfly, I thought, at first, walking from cottage to cottage, visiting with others and stopping to chat now and then.

I discovered he is very talkative, usually about mundane things, often repeating himself on certain issues and personal foibles. Not being much of a social critter myself, after several visits, I complained mildly that he never spoke of anything substantial and that I didn’t really have any gossip to share or time to socialize as I usually am self involved in my mind, composing a story or a scene as I work away.

Then my internet connection was completed and the cable guy came around and the rains kept me inside for a few days and, what with my attitude, I expected the brief acquaintance to fade away.

Well, it didn’t. Seems like the guy is a bit of a computer geek and asked a few questions at our next chance meeting about the capacity of my machine and what I used it for..

It also turns out that the gentleman is a graduate student at nearby Oregon State University, in the final stages of perfecting his ‘product’, his final thesis for a Master’s Degree in Nuclear Engineering. No wonder I thought he was just a lonely gossip, no one around here was smart enough to understand a thing about what he was involved in.

Well…I think I am a fairly smart ‘cookie’ myself. I have some degrees, a Stanford-Binet in the top one-half percent, but when this fella got down to it, he had to use lay terms for me to follow the content of his final project. It has to do, in the simplest terms possible, with factoring all the essentials existing in a given material for it’s ability to resist and shield, for instance, the radiation emanating from a hospital X-Ray device.

His, ‘product’ is about twenty pages filled with a seventy-two step mathematical formula beginning with college freshman Calculus, moving to graduate level Calculus, Linear Algebra and Multi-grid mathematics.

He gave permission and I thought to copy and paste the first page of his ‘product’, to impress you readers of the complexity of his work, but I cannot manage to tell my computer to accept the math symbols that make up the paper.

He remains a very social and talkative person yet, but at least now, I started learning things and actually looked forward to his visits….and I might add, his assistance digging out stumps and boulders in an area that used to be river bottom land. I have quite a rock farm going now.

I even managed to ask a few pertinent questions and discovered that he wants to finish his studies, get his, ‘Paper’ and apply for a job at the Hanford Nuclear Facility in Washington State. His preferred line of work would be involved in the manufacturing of the fuel rods for Nuclear Reactors.

Strangely enough, we had both twice visited the now decommissioned Nuclear Power Plant, “Trojan”, located near Ranier, Oregon. He as a young high school student in Physics, me as a talk show Host in nearby Portland, Oregon, some years ago.

I asked him about job opportunities in his field, noting that there has not been a new reactor constructed in over thirty years.

He sighed…and then the conversation turned almost in a political direction; not necessarily by choice, but almost by function, and I learned a great deal more and had many other things confirmed in my mind from yet another direction.

It was really a quite remarkable conversation and something I surely did not expect nor manage, from this rather awkward looking, geeky sort of a fellow who has never been married or even lived with a woman, to my understanding.

For those of you who have faithfully read the above, thank you, and I now broach my original subject, the Danger of a Democrat in 2008.

Roughly forty consecutive years, slowed only slightly by the two Reagan administrations, the impotent and ineffectual Nixon and Bush senior peccadillo’s; hindered by a Democrat controlled House and Senate, and thus, an entire Federal Bureaucracy, hand picked, unionized and fully supportive of programs and a mindset that sprang from the Kennedy years in the early 1960’s and firmly in place since then within the agencies of government.

I want to stress and emphasize the above as I think it is crucial to realize and fully comprehend the role the seldom noticed regulatory agencies of Federal, State and Local governments play in the overall political picture.

For example, a program called ’Headstart’, just to name one, has long been called a failed program, expensive, ineffective and wasteful, yet, like a tenured professor or a unionized laborer, impossible to correct, replace or abolish.

Another example is the Air Controllers strike during the first Reagan administration. The threat to blackmail an entire nation by unionized workers vowing to shut down air transportation until they received higher wages and benefits. Union members still curse the memory of President Reagan for his act in firing those union members.

Hundreds upon hundreds of similar programs from agricultural subsidies, to programs that pay farmers not to produce and limit what is grown and harvested, land and mineral use curtailed, forbidden, controlled by these agencies and demonstrably in the recent cases of eminent domain, with no legal recourse for the injured parties.

But, I digress.

My new friend disclosed that there are only about a dozen universities in the entire United States that offer graduate level studies in Nuclear Engineering. The education and the cutting edge of the industry have moved to Japan, India, China, France and Germany. And, most importantly, the jobs have gone also.

The anti-nuclear movement in the 60’s and 70’s, a social issue at the time, moved into the political arena and became laws and rules and regulations that have effectively strangled the entire industry in the United States.

The environmental and ecological movement of the same era, has followed the same course of laws, restrictions, regulations and high taxes and fees. Thus not only no new Nuclear Power Plants in over thirty years, but also no new oil or natural gas fields, no new refineries or pipelines and the entire east and west coast continental slope oil resources locked away.

Just these two aspects of left wing democratic social policies have already done great damage to the people and the economy of the United States. Higher energy costs for gasoline, heating oil, natural gas, jet fuel, plastics of all kinds based on petroleum products. Loss of jobs overseas, higher costs for electricity means not just difficulties for normal residents, but higher costs for large users of electrical energy, industry, retail markets and of course, transportation of all kinds.

Even the much heralded ‘green fuel’ revolution, making automobile fuel from corn products, has already had the side effect of rising food costs as corn products are being used for things other than food.

I only briefly mentioned the effects of environmental and ecological restrictions and regulations that have also slowed growth and raised costs on housing, building and construction of all sorts, mining, crop growth and grazing on federal and state lands, all programs put in effect by that 60’s generation that has so shaped the future. Even the policies in effect for federal and state timber lands had led to disastrous uncontrollable fires set in motion by law, rules, restrictions and regulations that forbid logging, even thinning to lessen deadfall fuels for forest fires.

I sincerely think the United States cannot survive a Democrat in the White House and the corresponding influx of the left into the inner workings of government regulatory agencies.

I have yet to mention the Courts, not just the Supreme Court, but the entire Judicial system, from state to state most of which have politically appointed Judges, not answerable to the ballot box and anointed by Democrat politicians from the 60’s on. During which time, Abortion, which had been murder before, became a woman’s ‘right’, and homosexuality which was classified as a mental illness even into the seventies and a crime, is now an accepted ‘alternative’ life style.

For those of you who wish to see the theme of my little piece, I am sure I have presented far more than enough for you to comprehend.

For those of you to whom the free market, capitalism and a firm definition of human rights, an adherence to constitutional guarantees, of individual rights and liberties, to those who stand in absolute horror of a free society, you need not reply. It is not my intent to engage in a political debate with this thread, merely to express my viewpoint and provide some foundation for those of you who may have questions about the future and find that the left does not offer any solutions to some of the problems I have touched upon.

Thank you…

amicus...
 
Polarization sucks.

Instead, let's find the common ground, perhaps starting with issues like social justice (defending those prone to exploitation) and conservation (insurance for posterity).

:heart:
 
[QUOTE=mckai777]Polarization sucks.

Instead, let's find the common ground, perhaps starting with issues like social justice (defending those prone to exploitation) and conservation (insurance for posterity).

:heart:[/QUOTE]


~~~

No, sorry m'dear, but here's a heart, :heart: , right back atcha.

Polarization, indeed passionate polarization is absolutely essential if truth is to be hammered out.

All of nature is in conflict...why do you insist on being different?

amicus...
 
that's a nice column on the dangers of Republicans in power. the approach is 'everything is fine' [or where not, the result of governement] or 'everything will be solved by big business.

in the passage below, on energy and environment, not a single alternative to 'statism' is presented, detailed or defended:

amiMy new friend disclosed that there are only about a dozen universities in the entire United States that offer graduate level studies in Nuclear Engineering. The education and the cutting edge of the industry have moved to Japan, India, China, France and Germany. And, most importantly, the jobs have gone also.

The anti-nuclear movement in the 60’s and 70’s, a social issue at the time, moved into the political arena and became laws and rules and regulations that have effectively strangled the entire industry in the United States.

The environmental and ecological movement of the same era, has followed the same course of laws, restrictions, regulations and high taxes and fees. Thus not only no new Nuclear Power Plants in over thirty years, but also no new oil or natural gas fields, no new refineries or pipelines and the entire east and west coast continental slope oil resources locked away.

Just these two aspects of left wing democratic social policies have already done great damage to the people and the economy of the United States. Higher energy costs for gasoline, heating oil, natural gas, jet fuel, plastics of all kinds based on petroleum products. Loss of jobs overseas, higher costs for electricity means not just difficulties for normal residents, but higher costs for large users of electrical energy, industry, retail markets and of course, transportation of all kinds.

Even the much heralded ‘green fuel’ revolution, making automobile fuel from corn products, has already had the side effect of rising food costs as corn products are being used for things other than food.

I only briefly mentioned the effects of environmental and ecological restrictions and regulations that have also slowed growth and raised costs on housing, building and construction of all sorts, mining, crop growth and grazing on federal and state lands, all programs put in effect by that 60’s generation that has so shaped the future. Even the policies in effect for federal and state timber lands had led to disastrous uncontrollable fires set in motion by law, rules, restrictions and regulations that forbid logging, even thinning to lessen deadfall fuels for forest fires.


one just needs to read between the lines a bit to see the (so called) free market (subsidized oligopoly) solutions being recommended:

1. no regulation of building nuclear plants
2. no regulation of mining; no 'governement protected' areas
3. no restriction on oil drilling; no protected coastlines, seas,etc.
4. de regulation of the electric power industry and non interference with its dependence on coal.

aside from the nuclear issue (build plants), you have nothing to say. France's nuclear 'solution', recommended by roxanne, is of course, more a statist than a 'free market' solution. the federal bureaucracy has bungled many issues, but other than blind faith you have given no reason to think the free market would solve any of these problem by the non-methods in the list above.

indeed such as simple fact as the 'peaking' of economical oil production, and the ultimate limitation of of oil supplies in accessible reserves that can practically be accessed, is ignored by you.

the voters will decide; faith and profits or 'roll up your sleeves' and work together to make the planet a better place for the grandkids.
 
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amicus said:
All of nature is in conflict...why do you insist on being different?

Nature is the most relentless and cruel force on this planet. The struggle for existence has always been in the effort to overcome it.

:heart:
 
amicus said:
Polarization, indeed passionate polarization is absolutely essential if truth is to be hammered out.

amicus...

Polarized people are usually blind to the truth...
 
drksideofthemoon said:
Polarized people are usually blind to the truth...

That depends on which pole you're swinging from. Or on.

:heart:
 
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I'm no flaming liberal, but sheesh! Amicus, how many right-wingers did you expect to find on this board, anyway? You know that I have no personal beef against you, but this doesn't make sense.

I guess it's the weird blend of centrist and Libertarian in me..... :rolleyes:
 
SEVERUSMAX said:
I'm no flaming liberal, but sheesh! Amicus, how many right-wingers did you expect to find on this board, anyway? You know that I have no personal beef against you, but this doesn't make sense.

I guess it's the weird blend of centrist and Libertarian in me..... :rolleyes:

He's just trying to rattle peoples cages...it's actually humorous...
 
amicus said:
I sincerely think the United States cannot survive a Democrat in the White House and the corresponding influx of the left into the inner workings of government regulatory agencies.

I have yet to mention the Courts, not just the Supreme Court, but the entire Judicial system, from state to state most of which have politically appointed Judges, not answerable to the ballot box and anointed by Democrat politicians from the 60’s on. During which time, Abortion, which had been murder before, became a woman’s ‘right’, and homosexuality which was classified as a mental illness even into the seventies and a crime, is now an accepted ‘alternative’ life style.

For those of you who wish to see the theme of my little piece, I am sure I have presented far more than enough for you to comprehend.

For those of you to whom the free market, capitalism and a firm definition of human rights, an adherence to constitutional guarantees, of individual rights and liberties, to those who stand in absolute horror of a free society, you need not reply. It is not my intent to engage in a political debate with this thread, merely to express my viewpoint and provide some foundation for those of you who may have questions about the future and find that the left does not offer any solutions to some of the problems I have touched upon.
-Aside: I'm a Pro-Nuclear Energy Liberal. I believe Nuclear is quite "green" and could fill a big chunk of the gap left by what Solar, wind and Hydro can't provide, and am sympathetic to the arguement that the US needs more nuclear power

I sincerely believe that personal liberty cannot survive another Republican in the White House. Our personal liberties and Economic stability are hanging by a thin thread.

Gonzales... Rice... Ashcroft... Cheney... Rumsfeld... Alito... These are some truly scary people, appointed by George W. Bush. In my mind, the only thing holding the United States back from the end of Civil Liberties, and disorder in the streets is that Chief Justice Roberts seems hesitant to rule on ANYTHING. My girlfriend and I go back and forth on him; I kind of like him because while I disagree with him on a lot of issues, he's always seemed smart to me, and I'm thankful that such a restrained mind is holding back what might be an otherwise backwards court, overturning decades of social progress.

Got news for you: Mainstream Democrats, for the most part, support Capitalism. Sure, they favor a few more regulations, want to maintain resources for the future rather than burning them all up today as fast as we can like some Old White Men would have us do. I suppose those who only have a few good years left would rather burn through our resources as quickly as possible during their lifetimes. I'm more long-sighted.

I'm sickened that you would imply Homosexuality is a mental illness. Your desire to return to a time when it was viewed as such undermines your other arguements. If you only ever change one of your beliefs in your lifetime, you would do well to learn that homosexuals are (for the most part, there are exceptions to every rule) born that way, and it's completely within the realm of "normal".

I'm sorry, but your Republican party, the one you imagine to exist, is dead. Reagan killed it. Republicans don't stand for personal liberty, and they don't stand for small government.

The Democrats are the party of Liberty. The Democrats are the party of the People, not the priveledged top 1%. The Democrats are the party of International Cooperation. The Republicans are the party of FBI abuse and illegal detentions, the Democrats are the party of Human Rights. The Democrats believe in a free society, where people are truly granted equal opportunity, and not judged on skin color, religious affiliation, gender, or sexual orientation. The Democrats aren't perfect, but they are far, far better for this country than the current administration.

(The good news is that neither McCain or Giuliani seems anywhere near as awful as G.W. in many regards. But another Republican nomination to the Supreme court scares the hell out of me, considering most of the more liberal members are the oldest, and so many of the misguided "orignalists" are young.)
 
Thanks JamesSD...although I firmly believe that opposite poles are necessary so that resolution or synthesis between thesis and antithesis, can exist, I do find amazement that rational people can reach such divergent conclusions.

You sound sincere in your post, as if your really do think or believe what you wrote and I assure you that I am quite the same and we occupy opposite extremes of the spectrum.

Not that I want to draw out a specific but all the information I have gathered indicates there is no such thing as a 'gay' gene and that homosexuality is not within a person at birth, but is an acquired lifestyle.

I think perhaps also that your criticism of one party in favor of another is most subjective and that one can clearly from the inception of the two major parties, determine which is more observant of human liberties and individual rights.

amicus...
 
I've got nothing to add about the political part at this moment. Need coffee first

But I just wanted to say this. Amicus, are you chinese? Or have you just aquired that Confuscian style by mere random chance?

Na, this is not insult flinging. It's a rhethorics geek's reflection on the style and disposition of your initial post. I happen to have just read books and research on chinese models of rhethoric and argument, and your post fits the chinese discourse and argumentative culture in an almost eerie way.

Anyway, I'm way off topic. Carry on, folks. :)



Well,here's my 2c:

The real danger of a Democrat in 2008 would be that it's very tempting for him (or her, as it were) to try to be the "anti Bush", and spend the first years undoing what Bush did (according to dems) wrong, for mostly ideological reasons. Undoing is not doing. And a good leader must be constructive, and focus on doing.
 
Perhaps, Liar, perhaps...Sun Yat Sen...probably butchered that, and some chinese and indian philosophy once upon at time interested me, along with Hermanne Hesse and his series of books, and styles, especially in rhetoric and presentation of subject, offtimes vary with the method and intent...I think...


amicus...
 
i would like to hear 'free market's' solution to the coming massive gobbling of oil by China and India, perhaps to a majority of world's supply.

oh, i know, VERY high prices in the US. i guess by then the hydrogen car dreamed of by Bush, and the supporting infrastructure will have materilzed, no new taxes, according to the genuis of the US.
 
Nukes and coal. The latter preferably burned in non-polluting state of the art plants. Shifting over the next century to all nukes.

The sad fact about 2008 is that politicians are all but certain to retain control of two branches of government, and lawers the third.
 
Roxanne Appleby said:
The sad fact about 2008 is that politicians are all but certain to retain control of two branches of government, and lawers the third.

Politicians do the dirty work, and hopefully don't dirty themselves in the process. Despite the corruption endemic to all bureaucracies and governments, they get shit done.

Lawyers ensure due process and uphold the rule of law. Without them, we'd all be in Gitmo.

:heart:
 
Roughly forty consecutive years, slowed only slightly by the two Reagan administrations, the impotent and ineffectual Nixon and Bush senior peccadillo’s; hindered by a Democrat controlled House and Senate, and thus, an entire Federal Bureaucracy, hand picked, unionized and fully supportive of programs and a mindset that sprang from the Kennedy years in the early 1960’s and firmly in place since then within the agencies of government.

I want to stress and emphasize the above...
Make a fucking sentence. ami. How the fuck you can persist in this fantasy that you're a writer is beyond belief.
 
mckai777 said:
Politicians do the dirty work, and hopefully don't dirty themselves in the process. Despite the corruption endemic to all bureaucracies and governments, they get shit done.

I was involved with legislation on a state level and it made me a huge cynic - laws and sausages and all that.

mckai777 said:
Lawyers ensure due process and uphold the rule of law. Without them, we'd all be in Gitmo.

:heart:

Law 101 says the legal process ensures that justice is done.

Law 201 says "let's study the OJ case for a few pointers on winning."
 
jomar said:
Law 101 says the legal process ensures that justice is done.

Law 201 says "let's study the OJ case for a few pointers on winning."

'Tis true.

:heart:
 
jomar said:
I was involved with legislation on a state level and it made me a huge cynic - laws and sausages and all that.



Law 101 says the legal process ensures that justice is done.

Law 201 says "let's study the OJ case for a few pointers on winning."

In Little League we teach that having fun is the thing, not winning or losing.

As a professional, you learn that you are meat and a bat.

the fact of B does not erase the good done by A
 
how does china get and maintain 1,000 nuclear reactors for the present population, and 25 more for each five years after that?

and how about your car, rox? little nuclear reactor in there too?
 
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No matter what anyone says or tries to get around it, the liberals and conservatives are polarized in such a way they can never agree. The conservatives, as you implied, Ami, think everything is okay, a free market will fix anything that's wrong and, in the mean time, the middle and lower classes will be steamrolled in the persuit of the all mighty dollar.

The liberals will battle for "human rightst" and entitlements as long as it takes to stave off the steamroller affect of the conservative movement. Yes, the will battle to save what forests we have and what earth quality remains, because that is the the opposite pole position.

But is there any real danger in having a liberal government after the debacle of the past six years? I don't think so. But then I'm a liberal and the viewpoint you chose depends on "who's ox is being gored."
 
Jenny_Jackson said:
No matter what anyone says or tries to get around it, the liberals and conservatives are polarized in such a way they can never agree. The conservatives, as you implied, Ami, think everything is okay, a free market will fix anything that's wrong and, in the mean time, the middle and lower classes will be steamrolled in the persuit of the all mighty dollar.

The liberals will battle for "human rightst" and entitlements as long as it takes to stave off the steamroller affect of the conservative movement. Yes, the will battle to save what forests we have and what earth quality remains, because that is the the opposite pole position.

But is there any real danger in having a liberal government after the debacle of the past six years? I don't think so. But then I'm a liberal and the viewpoint you chose depends on "who's ox is being gored."
But what about the Conservative Democrats, the Libertarian Republicans, the roughly 50% of the country that identifies as, and generally does vote, "Independant"ly? I'm not sure the US is actually that polarized. I've noticed online and in real life, it's the most extreme people who talk the loudest, while those in the middle either stay out of it or are ignored (Trust me, there are plenty of threads here and elsewhere where I've posted a moderate opinion and generally gotten no response as the two most extremists went at each other's throats).

There's a sizable, quiet, moderate majority out there. For better or for worse, they tend to vote fairly short sightedly, either on individual candidate charisma, or with a very short sighted view of their own pocketbook (I feel financially well off - keep people in power. I feel uncertain/financially shaky - throw the bums out!)

Of course, this is what leads to public policy being decided by battling special interest groups, and the almost endless stream of scandals from both sides of the aisle (The party in power tends to have more, simply because they're in charge of more).
 
while it's fun to debate amicus mythical "free market", which solves all problems in the best possible way, VERSUS demonic statism which regiments humans into antlike colonies and kills millions of 'inconvenient persons,' REALITY intervenes...

James SD i think has a key issue pegged: civil liberties.

the Repugs, in the grip of their right, want authority, arbirtrary arrest, untrammeled executive; BIG, AUTHORITATIVE GOVERNMENT. (see ann coulter's call to deport all middle east, arab non citizens).

Dems want a few of the Bill of Rights provisions honored, besides the Second Amendment.

----
When these issues don't wash, e.g. in Katrina territory, or presently in Arkansas, it's

Repug bungling and corruption (hands off approach)-> misery

Actual help by a democratic gov -> some relief

The tens of thousand of mobile homes [controlled by Homeland Security] standing idle in Arkansas while thousands are homeless (from tornados) in that same state is shown every night on CNN.
 
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