The most evil

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Although many persons have chided me for making such outrageous statements, nobody has said "No they're not. It's (some other group)".

Mmm, first let me express dismay at no longer being considered the world's biggest evil.

Second, it depends on modern day. If you include the 80s and 90s in your modern day assessment, fundamental Christians faroutweighed fundamental Muslims in evil-minded atrocities and hate-fueled attacks.

From a standpoint of media coverage and using a timeframe of today, this year plus or minus 3 years, one'd say it's currently a running game between the American government and Muslim terrorists. We torture them for revenge, they kill us for Allah, and the chechens stun the world.

I on the otherhand, agree with you wholeheartedly that it's just Islam for to do otherwise is anti-American which people have pointed out that I'm far too much of. So instead I'll express the societally acceptable amount of dismay that 8-year old boy terrorists had to go through so much anal discomfort and intrusion in front of their mothers for international freedom and justice.



Fuck, I'm getting political again, aren't I? Scratch everything above and insert something about goats and wild bacchanals. God damn you november, hurry up and get here already.

 

[minsue]

I'm too lazy to go back to find the post you just quoted, Luc. I hope you don't mind if I piggy-back here as I have something to add...

Even the most conservative estimates put the Islamic population at over 1 billion (usually estimated at 1.2-1.5 billion, as far as I know) people. Do the math for fuck's sake. To lump all of these people together as evil based solely on the actions of a very, very small percentage is, IMnsHO, unconsionable.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Mmm, first let me express dismay at no longer being considered the world's biggest evil.

Second, it depends on modern day. If you include the 80s and 90s in your modern day assessment, fundamental Christians faroutweighed fundamental Muslims in evil-minded atrocities and hate-fueled attacks.

From a standpoint of media coverage and using a timeframe of today, this year plus or minus 3 years, one'd say it's currently a running game between the American government and Muslim terrorists. We torture them for revenge, they kill us for Allah, and the chechens stun the world.

I on the otherhand, agree with you wholeheartedly that it's just Islam for to do otherwise is anti-American which people have pointed out that I'm far too much of. So instead I'll express the societally acceptable amount of dismay that 8-year old boy terrorists had to go through so much anal discomfort and intrusion in front of their mothers for international freedom and justice.

QUOTE]

You are probably right about fundamental Christians in the 80's but maybe not the 90's. Fundamentalists of any kind tend to have an "us against them" attitude. I'm not sure what you mean my media coverage. American misdeeds are covered much more thoroughloy by the American press and probably by the international media as well. Case in point: Actions by Americans in dealing with prisoners received vastly more publicity that those of al Sadr, a Muslim clergyman, although his actions were much worse and were committed in a holy place.

I don't believe that it's "just Islam" and I don't think anybody else, including you, does either. Basically, it is individual Muslims committing the evil deeds that I have mentioned, but a LOT of individual Muslims. Even those who have flamed me the strongest don't deny that.

 

[Boxlicker101]

I'm too lazy to go back to find the post you just quoted, Luc. I hope you don't mind if I piggy-back here as I have something to add...

Even the most conservative estimates put the Islamic population at over 1 billion (usually estimated at 1.2-1.5 billion, as far as I know) people. Do the math for fuck's sake. To lump all of these people together as evil based solely on the actions of a very, very small percentage is, IMnsHO, unconsionable.

I absolutely, 100% agree with you, as I said in my first post and in several since then.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

You are probably right about fundamental Christians in the 80's but maybe not the 90's. Fundamentalists of any kind tend to have an "us against them" attitude. I'm not sure what you mean my media coverage. American misdeeds are covered much more thoroughloy by the American press and probably by the international media as well. Case in point: Actions by Americans in dealing with prisoners received vastly more publicity that those of al Sadr, a Muslim clergyman, although his actions were much worse and were committed in a holy place.

I don't believe that it's "just Islam" and I don't think anybody else, including you, does either. Basically, it is individual Muslims committing the evil deeds that I have mentioned, but a LOT of individual Muslims. Even those who have flamed me the strongest don't deny that.

I think you're lying that no one believes that it's just Islam. Plenty of people believe that it's just Islam. Certainly enough to make believing that it's NOT just Islam is a dangerous view to hold.

I definitely include the 90s for incidents such as McVeigh's Oklahama City Bombing (they blew up the daycare instead of taking it over) and the suicide Christian cult at Waco that killed so many federal agents. Such actions far trumped what the rest of the world was offering on the terrorist level.

What I meant on media coverage is that there are probably regimes that are committing far worse atrocities than either the terrorists or Americans but we don't hear about them. From what we do get saturated with, American atrocities and Muslim atrocities seem to be occuring the most frequently as this War on Terror manifests itself as its true self: The Next Crusade.

There's not as many individual Muslims as you'd think who are committing evil as you quote it. There are a decent clump and threat-worthy clump, I'll heartily admit, but we see them as more because the Muslim people are fighting with guerilla tactics and suicide strikes. Many of the people who do this don't do it because they are terrorists or are following a mad charismatic leader, but because it is the only successful method they have found to repel invaders. Sure the people that blow up innocents are evil as the ones who publically behead captives, but the ones blowing up people in tanks are merely resistance fighters, as much as we'd rather clump them in among the psychos for robbing us of sons and husbands.

Now, that aside, I think the reason you're getting flamed is because while they admit that there are enough of a chunk of "evil" Muslims to influence world events, there is a similar chunk of psychos (mostly independent fighters and contractors) that we sent over there after 9/11 who believe (just like Osama) that the foreigners are all devils and commit atrocities upon them.

Anyway, I think I've said everything I was planning to say, so, dippity dippity doos. Dangerous Idiots are always bad news.

 

[Boxlicker101]

I think you're lying that no one believes that it's just Islam. Plenty of people believe that it's just Islam. Certainly enough to make believing that it's NOT just Islam is a dangerous view to hold.

I definitely include the 90s for incidents such as McVeigh's Oklahama City Bombing (they blew up the daycare instead of taking it over) and the suicide Christian cult at Waco that killed so many federal agents. Such actions far trumped what the rest of the world was offering on the terrorist level.

What I meant on media coverage is that there are probably regimes that are committing far worse atrocities than either the terrorists or Americans but we don't hear about them. From what we do get saturated with, American atrocities and Muslim atrocities seem to be occuring the most frequently as this War on Terror manifests itself as its true self: The Next Crusade.

There's not as many individual Muslims as you'd think who are committing evil as you quote it. There are a decent clump and threat-worthy clump, I'll heartily admit, but we see them as more because the Muslim people are fighting with guerilla tactics and suicide strikes. Many of the people who do this don't do it because they are terrorists or are following a mad charismatic leader, but because it is the only successful method they have found to repel invaders. Sure the people that blow up innocents are evil as the ones who publically behead captives, but the ones blowing up people in tanks are merely resistance fighters, as much as we'd rather clump them in among the psychos for robbing us of sons and husbands.

Now, that aside, I think the reason you're getting flamed is because while they admit that there are enough of a chunk of "evil" Muslims to influence world events, there is a similar chunk of psychos (mostly independent fighters and contractors) that we sent over there after 9/11 who believe (just like Osama) that the foreigners are all devils and commit atrocities upon them.

Anyway, I think I've said everything I was planning to say, so, dippity dippity doos. Dangerous Idiots are always bad news.

McVeigh was an isolated incident and, maybe, only included himself and a very few others. The cult in Waco was probably not even Christian; most cults aren't, and killed a few federal agents who attacked them. Shortly afterward, they were burned to death by the other federal agents.

I would never describe partisans or resistance fighters to be evil just because they are fighting against American forces. They may be misguided but they are not evil. However, those who plant bombs to kill their own countrymen are evil, at least to some degree.

Terrorists, in Russia, the US, Iraq or Afghanistan are not the only Muslims I mentioned but I am not going to list them again.

I'm unsure just what "chunk of psychos" you mean. If you mean the followers of warlords in Afghanistan, they are probably also mostly followers of Islam.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

McVeigh was an isolated incident and, maybe, only included himself and a very few others. The cult in Waco was probably not even Christian; most cults aren't, and killed a few federal agents who attacked them. Shortly afterward, they were burned to death by the other federal agents.

I would never describe partisans or resistance fighters to be evil just because they are fighting against American forces. They may be misguided but they are not evil. However, those who plant bombs to kill their own countrymen are evil, at least to some degree.

Terrorists, in Russia, the US, Iraq or Afghanistan are not the only Muslims I mentioned but I am not going to list them again.

I'm unsure just what "chunk of psychos" you mean. If you mean the followers of warlords in Afghanistan, they are probably also mostly followers of Islam.

The cult in Waco was super-Christian. Like a surprising number of cults in America. You can read about them and other ones that made the news in a book called Killer Cults. What they did in Waco was fire at the incompetent ATF strike force and then their leader set the building on fire. If you want to know which group the government set on fire, that was the MOVE organization which just so happened to be predominatedly black and to the police's credit also fired at officers.

Other groups that have fired at officers of the law with the intent to kill them over an arrest have included Gordon Kahl's Posse Comitatus, a neo-nazi organization in Middle America which also happened to be right-wing and super-Christian.

McVeigh was part of a growing movement of anti-government right-wing survivalists. The type of people that actually looked forward to the assault weapon ban ending so they can be fully stocked when Armageddon comes. Most of these groups as well show a radical Christianity and traces of Aryan superiority philosophies.

Overall, their actions are quite comparable to that of terrorists and often worse as they go for those weaker than them by choice.



The chunk of psychos I am referring to are American people paid by the government to be independent contractors and mercenaries in the Middle East. They are almost 100% Christian and are mostly white. One such individual played an important role in Abu Ghraib. Another, a former Ranger, was found storing multiple Afghan men in a private dungeon. His excuse was that they might happen to know something about Al-Queda. There are a huge amount of other cases. American men raping Iraqi and Afghan men, women, and children in the hopes that it'll get someone to admit to something horrible. Many of the people targeted for such treatment turn out to be wholly innocent. They are not compensated for their pain or trauma. These are all American men, corn fed, and God led who've committed atrocities in the Middle East because they assume that all Arabs are terrorists.

I'll admit that the Muslims are certainly making this a contest of who's got the bigger evil, but Christian and American hands have got a copious amount of blood regardless. To believe otherwise is to fall into the ol' nationalistic trap of the world is made of Gods and Sinners: "We are the Gods, they are the sinners."


Listen I'm trying hard not to be a politico until november, so I'm just going to say this: What you believe about McVeigh and Waco is what most Muslim people feel about the chechens and Al-Sadr. On a big picture, both sides are right. The incidents are really low for a society of this side with this level of nationalism and religious fervor. And yet, it all gets blown up and atrocity builds on atrocity until we're all slaughtering each other jes cuz. It's the same deal every war. No one fesses up that we have such monsters in our midst, that people who look just like us regularly commit such horror and are quick to jump at the monsters who don't. It's human nature and it sucks and it's the reason this world will never have Peace.

Satan out. (Love and Peace)

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Yes, and whose backing Isreal so they can win all these wars? Who is spending literally billions of dollars in aid, weapons, and such so that Isreal can stop all of this? America.

Our schools are a joke, we're three trillion in debt, social security is about to be lost, no nationwide medicare, millions of people out of work...

But Isreal gets their brand new tanks every year.

Face it, Muslims in Isreal are the modern day native americans. Remember? Napolean sold us land that didn't belong to him, and we settled it, pushing all the native americans on smaller and smaller pieces of land. Of course, the native americans were nice, and kind, and didn't put up a big fuss... except for maybe a few isolated incidents.

Could you imagine if they knew just what we were doing to them? If someone told them that we were taking their land, nothing they could do about it? If they had the means to stop it, would they?

Well, Muslims at the Gaza Strip and West Bank do have the means, and they're not giving up without a fight. No matter how much money and aid we give Isreal. You can't break people's spirit...

You can break their neck, but not their spirit.

It's called backing up an ally. The only reliable ally you have in a strategic region. It is also in my humble opinion, the right thing to do. You have a small state, surrounded by hostil neighbors, who have attacked repreatedly, refuse to recognize thier right to exist and pay for atrocities against them while bemoaning thier atrocities.

I don't see detonating a bomb on a bus, in a night club or at the mall as freedom fighting. I see it as a blatant act of terrorism, aimed at killing & maiming people who have absolutely no say in isreali policy and pose no threat to you or your people. You aren't acting as partisans, partisans and freedom fighters strike at the occupying military and it's judiciary arm or in a stretch, may attack political targets. When you start killing innocent civilians you place your cause beyond the pale.

Significantly, Palestinian Muslims differ from native americans. Palestine joined her neighbors in launching an attack on Israel. They lost and were occupied. When you open a war on someone and get beat, you can kinda expect to end up occupied, if not annexed. it's the way war and conquest have worked for centruies.

I don't hate all Muslims, I don't think they are all evil, far from it. But I would put Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Martyrs brigades right up there with Ossama and the scum who attacked the russian school. When you start targeting innocents, you have taken the giant step from freedom fighter to murderer. And in my opinion joined up with others who I classify as evil.

Unless you can explain to me how women and children taking the bus home are considered combatants.

-Colly

 

[cloudy]

for poohlive...

Comparing modern day Muslims to native americans is just too damn silly!

Totally different situations, and totally different reactions.

Try again.

 

[Boxlicker101]

I don't see detonating a bomb on a bus, in a night club or at the mall as freedom fighting. I see it as a blatant act of terrorism, aimed at killing & maiming people who have absolutely no say in isreali policy and pose no threat to you or your people. You aren't acting as partisans, partisans and freedom fighters strike at the occupying military and it's judiciary arm or in a stretch, may attack political targets. When you start killing innocent civilians you place your cause beyond the pale.

Significantly, Palestinian Muslims differ from native americans. Palestine joined her neighbors in launching an attack on Israel. They lost and were occupied. When you open a war on someone and get beat, you can kinda expect to end up occupied, if not annexed. it's the way war and conquest have worked for centruies.

I don't hate all Muslims, I don't think they are all evil, far from it. But I would put Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Martyrs brigades right up there with Ossama and the scum who attacked the russian school. When you start targeting innocents, you have taken the giant step from freedom fighter to murderer. And in my opinion joined up with others who I classify as evil.

Unless you can explain to me how women and children taking the bus home are considered combatants.

-Colly

I agree with you 100%, Colly, and that is what I have been saying throughout the thread.

 

[oggbashan]

I don't see detonating a bomb on a bus, in a night club or at the mall as freedom fighting. I see it as a blatant act of terrorism, aimed at killing & maiming people who have absolutely no say in isreali policy and pose no threat to you or your people. You aren't acting as partisans, partisans and freedom fighters strike at the occupying military and it's judiciary arm or in a stretch, may attack political targets. When you start killing innocent civilians you place your cause beyond the pale.

Significantly, Palestinian Muslims differ from native americans. Palestine joined her neighbors in launching an attack on Israel. They lost and were occupied. When you open a war on someone and get beat, you can kinda expect to end up occupied, if not annexed. it's the way war and conquest have worked for centruies.

-Colly

Israel was made out of Palestine, by displacing Palestinians. During the creation of Israel, Israeli 'terrorist' groups detonated bombs killing innocents and British soldiers. Israel cannot claim that it has clean hands on terrorism because known terrorists have been part of its government including their Head of State.

How would you like it if the UN created a new state, say for Native Americans, inside the borders of your home state, displacing you and your friends and family, and taking your homes and businesses without compensation? That is what happened in Palestine.

Palestinians are still being displaced by Israel in the new settlements. It is no wonder that they despair and see no hope in any negotiated solution when several generations have lived on the edge of what they used to own.

There has to be a settlement but the bombers and the Israeli military keep shedding blood. Each drop of blood, Palestinian or Israeli, raises the barriers between the two sides higher. The wall now being built takes more land from Palestinians.

From the Palestinian perspective everything is getting worse, day by day, week by week, year by year, and the US backs Israel in whatever they do. If I were Palestinian I would hate Israel and the US. If I were Israeli I would hate the Palestinian terrorist organisations. The mutual hatred is manipulated by people on both sides who do not want a peace settlement. Good people on both sides are in despair because the prospects for peace are further away.

Israel must recognise that Palestians have a right to a country of their own. Palestinians must recognise that Israel has a right to exist. Neither recognition is likely as long as the cycle of bombing and reprisal continues. All that is happening breeds more hatred and fills graves.

Og

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Israel was made out of Palestine, by displacing Palestinians. During the creation of Israel, Israeli 'terrorist' groups detonated bombs killing innocents and British soldiers. Israel cannot claim that it has clean hands on terrorism because known terrorists have been part of its government including their Head of State.

How would you like it if the UN created a new state, say for Native Americans, inside the borders of your home state, displacing you and your friends and family, and taking your homes and businesses without compensation? That is what happened in Palestine.

Palestinians are still being displaced by Israel in the new settlements. It is no wonder that they despair and see no hope in any negotiated solution when several generations have lived on the edge of what they used to own.

There has to be a settlement but the bombers and the Israeli military keep shedding blood. Each drop of blood, Palestinian or Israeli, raises the barriers between the two sides higher. The wall now being built takes more land from Palestinians.

From the Palestinian perspective everything is getting worse, day by day, week by week, year by year, and the US backs Israel in whatever they do. If I were Palestinian I would hate Israel and the US. If I were Israeli I would hate the Palestinian terrorist organisations. The mutual hatred is manipulated by people on both sides who do not want a peace settlement. Good people on both sides are in despair because the prospects for peace are further away.

Israel must recognise that Palestians have a right to a country of their own. Palestinians must recognise that Israel has a right to exist. Neither recognition is likely as long as the cycle of bombing and reprisal continues. All that is happening breeds more hatred and fills graves.

Og

Ogs,

When was the last time, before Israel occupied them, that the palestinians actually had control of the lands they claim? I know Palestine was a british mandate after Vesallis, but was that an ackowledgemnt that it was under the administration of the crown or was it a territorial concession from one of the Vanquised?

-Colly

 

[oggbashan]

Ogs,

When was the last time, before Israel occupied them, that the palestinians actually had control of the lands they claim? I know Palestine was a british mandate after Vesallis, but was that an ackowledgemnt that it was under the administration of the crown or was it a territorial concession from one of the Vanquised?

-Colly

In my (real) lifetime up to the establishment of the state of Israel. Palestinians fought on the British side in WWI to free themselves from the Turkish Empire. They had lived in Palestine for hundreds of years. Jews were a minority in Palestine up to 1939 despite years of immigration from persecution elsewhere.

It had been the intention of the British that Palestine should be self-governing (but within the British Commonwealth). Other places were considered for the establishment of a Jewish state after 1945 but the Jews wouldn't consider anywhere else. I don't blame them. Israel was their traditional land - but it hadn't been theirs for a very long time.

Wherever the Jewish homeland was set up, existing people would be displaced. It was the Palestinians' misfortune that they lived in the place that the Jews wanted to be.

The Palestinians had not persecuted Jews in the years before and during WWII. The Allies (except the USSR) hadn't persecuted Jews - Germany had. The Jewish state of Israel was created as the result of US pressure and USSR's compliance (in exchange for the USSR's other demands e.g. Eastern Europe and the return of Cossacks) over the protests of the British who saw real problems in displacing the existing inhabitants.

It could only have worked peacefully if there had been time for detailed negotiations and compensation for those dispossed. Neither the Jews nor the US were prepared to wait. The Jews used terrorist tactics including bombings. The US used its political muscle to insist that the British gave way.

The Palestinians were displaced by force. The attack on the new state of Israel was a mistake caused by fears among Arab states that Israel would expand well beyond its defined borders. Israel did as a result of that war and the generations of hatred had been started by bloodshed on both sides.

There is no solution unless both sides agree to co-exist. Every incursion by Israel into Palestinian areas and every suicide bomber pushes further away the faint hope of peace. It is over 50 years since Palestinians were dispossessed but some Palestinians still hope for a return to THEIR ancestoral lands.

All most Palestinians and Israelis want is a place to live in peace but every drop of blood shed on either side fuels the hatred. The bombers target emotive targets because that has the most impact. The gunships and tanks kill bystanders as well as 'fighters'. Palestinian homes razed to the ground are permanent reminders of Israel's power and anger. Bombed buses are a sign of Palestinian's anger and lack of hope. Each new generation is taught about the atrocities of the 'other' side. It will take generations to heal the wounds even if peace came tomorrow.

Palestinians hate the US because the US is seen as Israel's protector who never challenges the morality of anything Israel does and keeps supplying the weapons that kill Palestinians.

I would like to see peace between Israel and Palestine. I have seen so many attempts fail. I hope peace WILL come in my lifetime but it is a faint hope now.

Og

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Before Israel was a state, Arabs and Jews got along extremely well together. The Jews followed the Arab invasion of Spain and helped make Spain the light of Europe during the dark ages, up until thire forced conversion or expulsion by Ferdinand and Isabella in 1492.

Israel is a real problem to me, and makes me ashamed a lot. I don’t identify with the people there, especially the right-wing religious zealots, of which there are quite a few and who hate the Palestinians with a rabid, kill-them-all-they’re-not-even-human attitude that’s disgusting to see. But then, I’ve never lost a relative or child to a terrorist bomb or had to live among people who wanted me dead.

There was a trime when the Jews were known as the conscience of mankind. No more. Now Israel is just another repressive state with its own history of violence and victimization. I’m not saying that it’s all the Israeli’s fault by any means, but still it almost makes me yearn for the days when we were victims rather than victors. Jews have lost any claim to moral superiority because of Israel. Chosen people indeed.

Israel is also a good example of how reprisal and repression only serve the terrorist’s cause. The only way to solve the problem is to give the Palestinians a stake in the future of Israel, and with the climate of unrelenting hatred over there, that’s very unlikely.

I do know this, though. Most Israelis are not cruel and repressive and most Palestinians aren’t fanatical suicide bombers, and that’s why a statement like Box Licker’s is so reprehensible to me. Islamic terrorists probably have more in common with Jewish religious zealots than they do with the rest of Islam, and making foolish generalities like BL’s is just the first step in treating people as a class instead of as people; and treating people as a class is the first step in justifying genocide and religious war and falling into that never-ending spiral.

---dr.M.

 

[Boxlicker101]

I do know this, though. Most Israelis are not cruel and repressive and most Palestinians aren’t fanatical suicide bombers, and that’s why a statement like Box Licker’s is so reprehensible to me. Islamic terrorists probably have more in common with Jewish religious zealots than they do with the rest of Islam, and making foolish generalities like BL’s is just the first step in treating people as a class instead of as people; and treating people as a class is the first step in justifying genocide and religious war and falling into that never-ending spiral.

---dr.M.

Hi, Doc. I'm not sure what you mean by "my statement", because the first post on this thread is basically in agreement with what you and most others have said.

My first sentence was a general statement but my second paragraph explained what was meant, and the rest of the post supported my conclusion. I can probably go to many long posts that expresss opinions, pull sentences out of context and quote them to "prove" that the writers hold opinions that they don't actually hold.

I agree with you, by the way that extremists and zealots of any stripe have more in common with each other than they have with the vast majority of people, even the people whom they claim to represent.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

In my (real) lifetime up to the establishment of the state of Israel. Palestinians fought on the British side in WWI to free themselves from the Turkish Empire. They had lived in Palestine for hundreds of years. Jews were a minority in Palestine up to 1939 despite years of immigration from persecution elsewhere.

It had been the intention of the British that Palestine should be self-governing (but within the British Commonwealth). Other places were considered for the establishment of a Jewish state after 1945 but the Jews wouldn't consider anywhere else. I don't blame them. Israel was their traditional land - but it hadn't been theirs for a very long time.

Wherever the Jewish homeland was set up, existing people would be displaced. It was the Palestinians' misfortune that they lived in the place that the Jews wanted to be.

The Palestinians had not persecuted Jews in the years before and during WWII. The Allies (except the USSR) hadn't persecuted Jews - Germany had. The Jewish state of Israel was created as the result of US pressure and USSR's compliance (in exchange for the USSR's other demands e.g. Eastern Europe and the return of Cossacks) over the protests of the British who saw real problems in displacing the existing inhabitants.

It could only have worked peacefully if there had been time for detailed negotiations and compensation for those dispossed. Neither the Jews nor the US were prepared to wait. The Jews used terrorist tactics including bombings. The US used its political muscle to insist that the British gave way.

The Palestinians were displaced by force. The attack on the new state of Israel was a mistake caused by fears among Arab states that Israel would expand well beyond its defined borders. Israel did as a result of that war and the generations of hatred had been started by bloodshed on both sides.

There is no solution unless both sides agree to co-exist. Every incursion by Israel into Palestinian areas and every suicide bomber pushes further away the faint hope of peace. It is over 50 years since Palestinians were dispossessed but some Palestinians still hope for a return to THEIR ancestoral lands.

All most Palestinians and Israelis want is a place to live in peace but every drop of blood shed on either side fuels the hatred. The bombers target emotive targets because that has the most impact. The gunships and tanks kill bystanders as well as 'fighters'. Palestinian homes razed to the ground are permanent reminders of Israel's power and anger. Bombed buses are a sign of Palestinian's anger and lack of hope. Each new generation is taught about the atrocities of the 'other' side. It will take generations to heal the wounds even if peace came tomorrow.

Palestinians hate the US because the US is seen as Israel's protector who never challenges the morality of anything Israel does and keeps supplying the weapons that kill Palestinians.

I would like to see peace between Israel and Palestine. I have seen so many attempts fail. I hope peace WILL come in my lifetime but it is a faint hope now.

Og

I grew up in the deep south. There wasn't a mosque in the state that I know of, and only one synagoge. Surprisingly, almost everyone I grew up around was strongly pro-Israel. Not because southerners are particularly projewish or anti-islam, but because we admire a good fighter, and hold up the underdog who not only holds his own, but wins.

This is possibly a consequence of our own civil war, where we were the underdog. It's also possibly because southerners are usually a very martial group, the majority of volunteers for our many wars coming from the south prior to the establishment of a standing army.

There are so many ways to view what's happening in the mideast. Militarily, Israel is doing nothing we haven't done or countless others through history. They won a war and occupied the lands of the defeated. Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, California, all used to be spanish and then Mexican possessions. We took them by right of conquest, forcing a humiliating peace on a nation far weaker than we were.

While right of conquest has been falling out of favor since World War II, it has a lot of precedent and history behind it. In the case of the Palestinians, the fact that they started their war, while allied with a lot of others, and got beaten soundly, probably adds greatly to the sentiment here that they deserve to be occupied.

In this forum, intelligent arguments are made that hinge upon the religious and cultural differences. Back home, discussions are generally about how Israel kicks ass and how Arabs can't fight and should have been smart enough not to beard the lion in his den, so to speak.

I see the barrier wall as the only real prospect for peace. If I have a dog and a cat, who hate each other, and I want peace, the only way I know is for one to become an indoor pet and the other an outdoor pet. Separation being the only thing that will keep them from each other's throats.

The wall, in and of itself can never be a prmanent solution. It can however, keep each side from doing ill to the other, perhaps for a long enough period that the overall atmosphere of fear and hate can lessen to the point where people can talk about things. Talking being the first step towards negotiating.

The Arabs lost the war, yet their demands sound like the dictates of a victor. Staus quo antebellum on territorial issues, That is usually a concession by a magnanimous victor, not a demand of the defeated. The right of return is also impossible to obtain, that is a condition you couldn't force on a defeated Israel much less demand of a victororious one.

Israel is a small state, surrouned by hostile neighbors. Any peace plan put forward that doesn't address their concers for their security is doomed before it begins. I don't think anyone who draws these plans up really appreciates that. As long as hamas, Islamic Jihad etc., are recieving the support of the Palestinain people and the tacit support of the government, you will never have peace there.

The catch-22 will remain, until enough people on both sides find the will to take significant risks for peace. For the Palestinians, cracking down on the militants in their midst could lead to a civil war. For the israelis, pulling back, could lead to a spate of terrorist violence on an unprecedented scale.

Perhaps deepest and the most unlikely, is that both sides have to meet in the middle and accept that they both live there and will have to eventually find a way to do so in peace or the killing will never end.

-Colly

 

[Somme]

How many can really play a good 'devils' advocate with themselves, I wonder?

 

[oggbashan]

Colly,

The Palestinians were occupied BEFORE they were defeated.

They were fighting to get back what they had lost, not through military defeat, but by an unfair decision of the Allies.

How would you react if your state was handed to Mexico and you, your family and friends were dispossessed, losing your house, your land, your businesses, your public utilities to Mexican immigrants because the UN said it had to happen? And the UN threatened military force if you didn't accept? That is what happened in Palestine BEFORE the first war between Arab and Israel.

There are two sides in the Israeli/Palestinian dispute. The US seems to see only one side and praises the Israeli forces (armed to the teeth by the US). Any war between Israel and Palestinians is very one-sided because only one side has all the war equipment except a few small arms.

The Arab states in the region have helped Palestinians for their own motives. It is safer to let your allies die than to commit your own troops.

There are wrongs on both sides. The US has been consistently biased towards Israel even when Israel has been the aggressor. That generates massive hatred for the US even among otherwise reasonable people who would never condone a bomb or an attack on the US or Israel.

The majority of people among Israelis and Palestinians want peace. Palestinian bombers and Israeli counter-attacks (some of them are pre-emptive) are working to ensure that peace will NEVER happen. The madmen on both sides are in charge of the asylum and all they know is how to kill and how to die.

Og

 

[oggbashan]

Injustice builds hatred

If there was peace between Israelis and Palestinians the terrorist organisations and the fanatics would lose their recruits who are fuelled by perceived injustice.

Hamas and others would be marginalised.

However, Israel is not the only state in the Middle East where injustice is rife. Citizens of some Arab states are excluded from progress in their own countries and do not have the freedoms that we in the Western democracies take for granted.

Some fanatical people want the freedom to oppress others in the name of religion or politics or race or sex or whatever. It is very difficult to introduce democracy to peoples who have never known it. The systems of checks and balances that exist in the West need people who are unafraid to express dissenting views.

In most of the Middle East dissent is an invitation to imprisonment without trial or even death. Criticising your government can be fatal. Much of what has been said about Kerry and Bush in the AH could have been fatal if we were in the Middle East and saying such things about those in power.

It is going to take a very long time to produce stable democracies there.

Og

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Colly,

The Palestinians were occupied BEFORE they were defeated.

They were fighting to get back what they had lost, not through military defeat, but by an unfair decision of the Allies.

How would you react if your state was handed to Mexico and you, your family and friends were dispossessed, losing your house, your land, your businesses, your public utilities to Mexican immigrants because the UN said it had to happen? And the UN threatened military force if you didn't accept? That is what happened in Palestine BEFORE the first war between Arab and Israel.

There are two sides in the Israeli/Palestinian dispute. The US seems to see only one side and praises the Israeli forces (armed to the teeth by the US). Any war between Israel and Palestinians is very one-sided because only one side has all the war equipment except a few small arms.

The Arab states in the region have helped Palestinians for their own motives. It is safer to let your allies die than to commit your own troops.

There are wrongs on both sides. The US has been consistently biased towards Israel even when Israel has been the aggressor. That generates massive hatred for the US even among otherwise reasonable people who would never condone a bomb or an attack on the US or Israel.

The majority of people among Israelis and Palestinians want peace. Palestinian bombers and Israeli counter-attacks (some of them are pre-emptive) are working to ensure that peace will NEVER happen. The madmen on both sides are in charge of the asylum and all they know is how to kill and how to die.

Og

Og,

In all honesty, do you see any kind of peace plan that could work? I don't. I can't even envision small steps in the right direction at this point. Any time Israel relaxes travel restrictions ect. Hamas and their ilk abuse it to get bombers into place. Any demand that the PAL authority adress the terrorists in their midst is met with disembling and poor mouthing.

Sharon and Arafat have a mutually advantageous hate for each other that goes back years. The U.S. isn't going to stop backing Israel, no matter who wins the presidential election. At best you could hope for a Kerry cabinet to back off on the to the hilt support, but the first time a terrorist bomb goes off in a night club, public outcry here would force them to go back to the anything you guys want policy.

I personally was surprised that GWB's administration even offered the road map. For a politician who was on shakey ground, investing any of you rpolitical clout in trying to get peace in the regious seems a huge gamble.

I may be just too cynical for my own good, but I don't see any hope. Unless one and all wake up one day and realize killing each other isn't doing anything positive for either side.

-Colly

 

[dr_mabeuse]

This is one issue for which I can honestly say I haven't a clue. I see both sides of the problem, and I'm damned if I know of a solution. I'm reduced to just hoping for a miracle.

---dr.M.

 

[oggbashan]

This is one issue for which I can honestly say I haven't a clue. I see both sides of the problem, and I'm damned if I know of a solution. I'm reduced to just hoping for a miracle.

---dr.M.

I can only agree with dr.M. I hope but...

One thing from earlier posts. Some of the Arab countries near Israel are NOT Israel's enemies. That is a long way from saying they are Israel's friends but most would like a peaceful settlement.

Egypt's Anwar Sadat went a long way for peace, so did King Hussein of Jordan. Saddam Hussein was Israel's enemy and intended at one time to attack Israel with missiles.

Many good people, Arab and Israeli (and Palestinian) have tried very hard to reach a peaceful settlement. Some have paid with their lives for their efforts for peace.

The US and other countries, and the UN, have tried to arrange for a peaceful settlement. One of the basic problems is that the fanatics of both sides are beyond the control of those who are supposed to be in charge. Arafat cannot control Hamas or other 'terrorist' groups who have their own agendas. The Israeli government cannot control the fanatics on their side either.

I hope for peace but until the killing stops it will not happen.

Og

 

[cantdog]

I grew up in the deep south. There wasn't a mosque in the state that I know of, and only one synagoge. Surprisingly, almost everyone I grew up around was strongly pro-Israel. Not because southerners are particularly projewish or anti-islam, but because we admire a good fighter, and hold up the underdog who not only holds his own, but wins.

This is possibly a consequence of our own civil war, where we were the underdog. It's also possibly because southerners are usually a very martial group, the majority of volunteers for our many wars coming from the south prior to the establishment of a standing army.

There are so many ways to view what's happening in the mideast. Militarily, Israel is doing nothing we haven't done or countless others through history. They won a war and occupied the lands of the defeated. Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, California, all used to be spanish and then Mexican possessions. We took them by right of conquest, forcing a humiliating peace on a nation far weaker than we were.

While right of conquest has been falling out of favor since World War II, it has a lot of precedent and history behind it. In the case of the Palestinians, the fact that they started their war, while allied with a lot of others, and got beaten soundly, probably adds greatly to the sentiment here that they deserve to be occupied.

In this forum, intelligent arguments are made that hinge upon the religious and cultural differences. Back home, discussions are generally about how Israel kicks ass and how Arabs can't fight and should have been smart enough not to beard the lion in his den, so to speak.

I see the barrier wall as the only real prospect for peace. If I have a dog and a cat, who hate each other, and I want peace, the only way I know is for one to become an indoor pet and the other an outdoor pet. Separation being the only thing that will keep them from each other's throats.

The wall, in and of itself can never be a prmanent solution. It can however, keep each side from doing ill to the other, perhaps for a long enough period that the overall atmosphere of fear and hate can lessen to the point where people can talk about things. Talking being the first step towards negotiating.

The Arabs lost the war, yet their demands sound like the dictates of a victor. Staus quo antebellum on territorial issues, That is usually a concession by a magnanimous victor, not a demand of the defeated. The right of return is also impossible to obtain, that is a condition you couldn't force on a defeated Israel much less demand of a victororious one.

Israel is a small state, surrouned by hostile neighbors. Any peace plan put forward that doesn't address their concers for their security is doomed before it begins. I don't think anyone who draws these plans up really appreciates that. As long as hamas, Islamic Jihad etc., are recieving the support of the Palestinain people and the tacit support of the government, you will never have peace there.

The catch-22 will remain, until enough people on both sides find the will to take significant risks for peace. For the Palestinians, cracking down on the militants in their midst could lead to a civil war. For the israelis, pulling back, could lead to a spate of terrorist violence on an unprecedented scale.

Perhaps deepest and the most unlikely, is that both sides have to meet in the middle and accept that they both live there and will have to eventually find a way to do so in peace or the killing will never end.

-Colly

They won the war in 1967, but they occupied the lands by international treaty. The treaty forming Israel was undertaken with no consultation with the Palestinians, because that area was under colonial control, nominally, and the actual natives had zero say in the colonial establishment.

To make the provisions of the treaty happen, to establish the state of Israel in the teeth of the Palestinians, required a lot of murder. Begin was a terrorist captain during this period, because without terrorism, there would have been no Israel.

They won the war in 1967, and several conflicts since. Every time conventional forces have been arrayed against them, they have won hands down. In what way does this make them an underdog?

They have carte blanche support from the most powerful nation on the globe's surface. They can sign a treaty one day saying "this land is Palestinian" and then the next day place settlements on it. They can do this continually, sending their armed forces to shoot at the Palestinians who attempt to harvest trheir olives or draw their water. Then the U.S. supports them further, and the treaty is rewritten to give the de facto occupied lands to the pushy interlopers. Every new treaty takes more water from the Palestinians and more land and so forth. Meanwhile Israel receives by far the largest arms and foreign aid support of anyone on the globe, from us again. Deaths of Israelis during this are plastered all over the papers here. Deaths of Palestinians hardly get a mention. In what way does this make them the underdog?

They ultimately acquired a neighbor with some credible armed forces. You think Lebanon is a threat? No, it was Iraq after the Iran-Iraq war. Guess what happened then? They got worried, soi Momma U.S. destroyed the place for them. Sanctions, bombings, two wars.

The Iraq war may not have been, it says here, the best idea for us, but it has been an unmitigated good thing for Israel. In what way do they look like an underdog?

cantdog

 

[Guest]

Hi, Doc. I'm not sure what you mean by "my statement", because the first post on this thread is basically in agreement with what you and most others have said.
My first sentence was a general statement but my second paragraph explained what was meant, and the rest of the post supported my conclusion.

Box, you screwed up and now only keep repeating yourself. I still don't get you and I think most people don't, though amongst the others here I am finding interesting ideas to read and think on.

I can't care enough about this/you to do any research but if memory serves you have often been "misunderstood". I know that at least once I told you that you simply do not express yourself well in proper English (outside your smut, as I do not read your stories). I'm not about to reread your entry post, but I suggest you take some time and think about how the majority here have reacted to your first post. Stop telling us what you "meant" to say.

Perdita

 

[oggbashan]

I think some good will come of this thread if people understand that the situation between Israelis and Palestinians is not one of 'good guys' versus the 'bad guys' but each side has flaws and the actions of official and unoffical agents both generate hatred.

Both sides have been wronged. Both sides have martyrs. Both sides have bred hatred in the newer generations. Peace can only come if both try to control the vicious dance of attack and counter-attack. The wall being built is another form of attack against Palestinians depriving them of yet more land and resources. The settlements in the occupied territories are a different form of attack. Some of the Palestinians see the bombers as the only means they have to protest their continual eviction from their land.

Israel and the Palestinians have broken as many agreements as the US Government did with Native Americans. The only difference in that comparison is that both sides break agreements in Israel and neither seems to have the power or the will to keep them.

Og