The Most Advanced Fighter Plane Ever Made

[Lancecastor]

...was the Canadian CF-105 Arrow.

Built in 1958, the Avro Arrow is the stuff of legends. Members of its' design team went on to design the Lunar Lander and the Concorde, among other notable icons in aviation history.

The Arrow Mark 1 flew in 1958 at 60,000 feet at Mach2, which blew the doors off anything in the air.

The Mark 2, which had a design speed of Mach 2.5+ at 60,000 feet due to its lighter, more powerful engines, was cancelled at the request of the US Government in February of 1959.

The only fighter capable even today of outflying a 1958 CF-105 is the Mig-31 Foxbat, itself a copy of the Arrow using more modern materials.

 

[REDWAVE]

No

No, you're wrong, Lance. The most truly advanced fighter plane would be one that's converted to peaceful purposes, and no longer used for fighting.

 

[honeylick]

but does it have a cup-holder?


i gotta have one of those...

 

[RastaPope]

Re: No

No, you're wrong, Lance. The most truly advanced fighter plane would be one that's converted to peaceful purposes, and no longer used for fighting.

LOL!!

 

[bknight2602]

but does it have a cup-holder?


i gotta have one of those...

Only on the deluxe models.

 

[modest mouse]

Speed and altitude are over emphasized by those casual fans of fighter aircraft. Any pilot would tell you that 'handling' and tech capabilities win battles.

 

[RosevilleCAguy]

...was the Canadian CF-105 Arrow.

Built in 1958, the Avro Arrow is the stuff of legends. Members of its' design team went on to design the Lunar Lander and the Concorde, among other notable icons in aviation history.

The Arrow Mark 1 flew in 1958 at 60,000 feet at Mach2, which blew the doors off anything in the air.

The Mark 2, which had a design speed of Mach 2.5+ at 60,000 feet due to its lighter, more powerful engines, was cancelled at the request of the US Government in February of 1959.

The only fighter capable even today of outflying a 1958 CF-105 is the Mig-25 Foxbat, itself a copy of the Arrow using more modern materials.

Lance, I disagree. There is a hell of a lot more to a jet fighter than straight line speed and time to altitude. range manueverability, payload, and crew considerations also play a huge role. There were also jet fighters IN SERVICE prior to 1959 which were just as fast. The F-104 Starfighter, designed in 1954 and in service (as opposed to a prototype which the CF-105 appears to have been) was capable of Mach 2 +.

I suspect that had more to do with the cancellation than anything else.

Also, do you have anything to support your contention that the Mig 31 is an offshoot of the Arrow? Russian designers have often been accused of copying other designs when in acutality, most of them are originals.

 

[Lancecastor]

Re: No

No, you're wrong, Lance. The most truly advanced fighter plane would be one that's converted to peaceful purposes, and no longer used for fighting.

The Arrow never fired a shot at anyone and the team went on to design the most advanced commercial airliner in the world, the Concorde...so in fact I'm right.

See the resemblance?

 

[Lancecastor]

Re: Re: The Most Advanced Fighter Plane Ever Made

The F-104 Starfighter, designed in 1954 and in service (as opposed to a prototype which the CF-105 appears to have been) was capable of Mach 2 +.

You're wrongo on the Starfighter:

http://www.319th.com/f-104.htm

 

[honeylick]

Only on the deluxe models.

i'd spring for the upgrade.

 

[Jimi]

Re: Re: The Most Advanced Fighter Plane Ever Made

Lance, I disagree. There is a hell of a lot more to a jet fighter than straight line speed and time to altitude. range manueverability, payload, and crew considerations also play a huge role. There were also jet fighters IN SERVICE prior to 1959 which were just as fast. The F-104 Starfighter, designed in 1954 and in service (as opposed to a prototype which the CF-105 appears to have been) was capable of Mach 2 +.

I suspect that had more to do with the cancellation than anything else.

Also, do you have anything to support your contention that the Mig 31 is an offshoot of the Arrow? Russian designers have often been accused of copying other designs when in acutality, most of them are originals.

FOXBAT sure as hell had some "cues" - like the multiple shock intakes - not standard on Yank aircraft until almost 15 years after Black Friday.

BTW, I work in aerospace...

Most of the brits & Canucks from Avro ended up at NASA and in US defence conractors' stables.

 

[bknight2602]

i'd spring for the upgrade.

But the cup holders cost $65000 extra, with all the red tape involved.

 

[RosevilleCAguy]

Re: Re: Re: The Most Advanced Fighter Plane Ever Made

You're wrongo on the Starfighter:

http://www.319th.com/f-104.htm

How am I wrong? Thats above Mach 2.

 

[RosevilleCAguy]

Re: Re: Re: The Most Advanced Fighter Plane Ever Made

FOXBAT sure as hell had some "cues" - like the multiple shock intakes - not standard on Yank aircraft until almost 15 years after Black Friday.

BTW, I work in aerospace...

Most of the brits & Canucks from Avro ended up at NASA and in US defence conractors' stables.

While I am not going to debate your expertise in your area, I might also point out that it had swept wings, developed by the Germans during WW2.

One feature does not a copy make is my point.

 

[honeylick]

But the cup holders cost $65000 extra, with all the red tape involved.

can i finance that?

 

[Lancecastor]

Re: Re: Re: Re: The Most Advanced Fighter Plane Ever Made

How am I wrong? Thats above Mach 2.

The Arrow was faster.

Here's some more neat stuff about the plane to answer your questions about its manouverability, payload, etc...Arrow Mark 2's would still be viable front line fighters today.

~~~~

From Fighter Planes.com

The Arrow was very sophisticated for its time, and had many hidden features design people of the time didn't realize. First, there were no prototypes. The first aircraft coming off the assembly line was to be able to enter service in the RCAF. Design tests were performed on model jigs and the development tools were designed to be used on all production aircraft.

The airframe itself was also very advanced. It was 80ft long, had a wing span of 50ft and was 21 ft high (at tip of fin). It had a fuel capacity of 2800 gallons of fuel and could fly at mach 1 for 2.5 hours without refuelling. It could also pull 2G at Mach 1.5 without losing an inch of altitude or a knot of speed. The Arrow was also the first aircraft to adopt "fly-by-wire" technology, which is a type of control system where a computer assists the pilot in piloting the plane, making the plane easier to fly and manoeuvre. This system was called the Automated Flight Control System, and kept the aircraft stable in the event of an emergency and could perform automatic landings and take-offs. It also was a kind of airplane "cruise-control" which kept the aircraft on the set course and speed. Fly-by-Wire technology only started to appear in other service planes 20 years later.

It also had a weapons bay roomier than those of a B-29 or Lancaster, two great bombers from WW II. Any type of weapon could be fitted, and this helped in making the Arrow more versatile. Since it could carry a large selection of weapons, it was an interceptor-fighter-strike bomber-anti ship plane. It was solely designed as an interceptor, but it was able to deliver missiles, bombs, rockets and torpedoes. This made it an air-superiority aircraft, a universal fighter plane.

It also had a semi-pressurized cabin and a two man crew, in a pilot-navigator configuration. The navigator was there to control the radar and navigation systems (although the pilot also had a navigation console, in the event of solo flights). The weapon bay doors opened in 0.3 seconds and a missile fired in 2 seconds (doors opened, deployed, cleared and fired).

Surprisingly, the Arrow also had a climate system, to cool the fuel tanks, weapons bay and cool or heat the cockpit. The Arrow was designed for high speeds, which means heat from friction, and flying in arctic air, which means cold dry air around the plane. The windows had a de-fogging system, a climate control for the canopy and automatic de-icing and anti-icing systems at the most critical areas. It also had a very powerful hydraulics system for flight controls and the landing gear. For example, it was measured that the hydraulic pressure applied to the elevators could easily lift 6 large elephants!

The Arrow was revealed to the public on October 4th, 1957. Unfortunately on that date, the Soviets launched Sputnik, the first artificial satellite. This event stole the spotlight from the Arrow, and resulted in changing how people thought of air defence. Since the Iroquois were still in development in 1957, Avro decided to power the first five Arrows with Pratt & Whitney J75 turbojets. These American engines didn't even meet the dry thrust of the PS-13 at full afterburners. These first five Arrows were designated the Mk.(Mark)1, and the all Canadian aircraft with the Iroquois engines would be Mk.2s.

Flight testing started as soon as the engines were installed in Arrow 201, the first aircraft. It made its first flight, without any problems, on March 25 1958. Januz (Jan or Yan, as people called him)"Zura" Zurakowski was the first man to fly the Arrow. He said it flew like a marvel and was easier to fly than many other common aircraft of the time. Except for a few landing gear and damper problems, the flight testing was without a problem, and no-one was killed or injured during flight testing. Only 2 crash landings occurred when the landing gear wasn't properly aligned, but these problems were quickly fixed and bugs were removed. At the same time, the Iroquois was undergoing flight tests.

The Iroquois engine was tested on a static test bed, and when the results were favourable for flight tests, Orenda was loaned a B-47 bomber from the USAF. Canadair built a cowling on the side of the six-engined bomber, to insert the Iroquois. Once the Iroquois was fitted, flight tests commenced immediately. On the first flight, the large USAF bomber lifted up in the air, its six engines screaming and emitting thick black smoke. At 15000 ft, a safe altitude, they lit up the Iroquois. It was so powerful, they had to cut-off the other six engines, or else the plane would have gone supersonic; a velocity it couldn't resist without over-stressing. And they couldn't push the throttle past 60% since it would have shaken the plane to pieces. We must say that even with its sturdiness, the B-47 wasn't designed to hold the most powerful turbojet in the world on it's aft fuselage. The Iroquois delivered 20,000 pounds of thrust without after-burners, and drove the bomber on its own, and at a speed it wasn't designed to exceed. At afterburners, it was recorded that the Iroquois could surpass 26,000 lb of thrust. With two engines, this gave a maximum thrust of over 50,000 pounds to the Arrow, a force not even the fabled Tomcat can reach, and may I tell you, the F-14 is a very powerful plane. The Iroquois was the most powerful turbojet on the North American Continent, and when it was designed, it was the most powerful in the world. "

http://www.fighter-planes.com/index.html

 

[Killswitch]

 

[Lancecastor]

Re: Re: Re: The Most Advanced Fighter Plane Ever Made

Most of the brits & Canucks from Avro ended up at NASA and in US defence conractors' stables.

It would be neat if the doubters here could see the CBC documentary, yes? Such a fucking cool plane!

 

[Lancecastor]

 

[Killswitch]

Wow.....an F18 scooter....this things cool as hell. We use scooters to get around the drag strip....this things badass.

 

[Lancecastor]

Avro Designers At NASA

Mercury, Apollo and Mission Control in particular were all heavily influenced by Canadians from the Avro arrow team.

February 1959

"There had already been a long history of contact with NASA’s predecessor, the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics. This organization had been called on before to review the project, and Avro had been testing Arrow models at their Wallops Island facility in Virginia. During the early days of the Mercury program, Bob Gilruth, then-head of the Space Task Group at the newly-formed NASA, had an urgent need for engineers. He entered into discussions with Jim Chamberlin, Avro’s Chief of Design, and Robert Lindley, Chief Engineer. Again, the idea was to keep the Canadians together as a team, to be returned should the climate improve in Canada. That was not to be.

NASA moved fast. By early March, only weeks after cancellation, the Americans were conducting extensive interviews in Toronto. Some thirty-one designers and engineers were chosen, some from the upper echelons like Chamberlin, while others, such as computer experts or heat transfer specialists, for their specific skills. By late April they were working. "

http://www.exn.ca/apollo/Canada/

 

[RosevilleCAguy]

It would be something I'd like to research further.

The thing had to have some flaws though. Any aircraft, no matter how great does.

 

[Lancecastor]

Declassified Arrow Mark 2 Docs.

www.mach3graphics.com/ html/secret_rep.htm

 

[Lancecastor]

It would be something I'd like to research further.

The thing had to have some flaws though. Any aircraft, no matter how great does.

If you dig aircraft, you should read up on the Avro Arrow....the plane was widely considered to be 20 years ahead of its time... and the team went on to be involved in almost every important aeronautical advance of the 60's and 70's.

There's tons of material about it and its people online and there are a few books as well.

Lance

 

[RosevilleCAguy]

Re: Declassified Arrow Mark 2 Docs.

www.mach3graphics.com/ html/secret_rep.htm

Thank you.