The Modern Athlete?

S-Des

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We know he didn't need the money, so wtf??? Not for those with weak stomachs.

RICHMOND, Va. - When a Bad Newz Kennels dog was wounded in a losing fight, NFL star Michael Vick was consulted before the animal was doused with water and electrocuted. That's just one of the gruesome details that emerged Tuesday when the Atlanta Falcons quarterback and three others were indicted by a federal grand jury.

The four were charged with competitive dogfighting, procuring and training pit bulls for fighting and conducting the enterprise across state lines.

The 18-page indictment, filed in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia, alleged the 27-year-old Vick and his co-defendants began the dogfighting operation in early 2001, the former Virginia Tech star's rookie year as the No. 1 pick.

The operation was centered at a property Vick owned in Surry County, where a fence shielded prying eyes from the back, and the two-story brick home was surrounded by fencing in the front, with several black buildings further back.

Unlike previous documents, which did not name Vick, the indictment is littered with his name, including this tidbit — Vick was known as "Ookie" in the dogfighting world.

If convicted of all the charges, Vick and the others — Purnell A. Peace, 35, of Virginia Beach; Quanis L. Phillips, 28, of Atlanta; and Tony Taylor, 34, of Hampton — could face up to six years in prison, $350,000 in fines and restitution.

About eight young dogs were put to death at the Surry County home after they were found not ready to fight in April 2007, the indictment said. They were killed "by hanging, drowning and/or slamming at least one dog's body to the ground."

"Some of the grisly details in these filings shocked even me, and I'm a person who faces this stuff every day," Goodwin said. "I was surprised to see that they were killing dogs by hanging them, and one dog was killed by slamming it to the ground. Those are extremely violent methods of execution — they're unnecessary and just sick."

Purses for the fights ranged from hundreds of dollars to the thousands, and participants and spectators often placed side bets on the outcome, according to the indictment.

After two Bad Newz Kennels dogs lost fights in March 2003, the indictment alleged Vick gave a bag containing $23,000 to the owner of the winning dogs.

Started in early 2002, according to the indictment, Bad Newz Kennels began purchasing pit bulls to train as fighters. Eventually, the defendants bought shirts and headbands "representing and promoting their affiliation."


The indictment said dogfights were held at the Virginia property and dog owners brought animals from six states, including New York and Texas.

At the start, authorities seized 66 dogs, including 55 pit bulls, and equipment commonly used in dogfighting. About half the dogs were tethered to car axles with heavy chains that allowed the dogs to get close to each other, but not to have contact — an arrangement typical for fighting dogs, according to the search warrant affidavit.

Before fights, participating dogs of the same sex would be weighed and bathed, according to the filings. Opposing dogs would be washed to remove any poison or narcotic placed on the dog's coat that could affect the other dog's performance.

Sometimes, dogs weren't fed to "make it more hungry for the other dog."

Fights would end when one dog died or with the surrender of the losing dog, which was sometimes put to death by drowning, strangulation, hanging, gun shot, electrocution or some other method, according to the documents.
 
Is there any way we can drown, strangle or electrocute these monsters? Preferably all three, one after the other?

I'm not usually in favor of cruel and unusual punishment, but I'll make an exception in this case. Let the punishment fit the crime.
 
What does that have to do with modern athletes? The article is about what a person who happens to be an athlete, I guess, did when he was not being an athlete.
 
I'm with Lauren on this one. Vick may or may not go to jail, but he will be punished by being denied the millions that his contract with the Atlanta Falcons calls for. I would think that a fine of enough to take what he now has away from him and leave him penniless on the street would be about right.

However, the fact the Vick is/was an athlete has nothing to do with the matter.
 
Lauren Hynde said:
What does that have to do with modern athletes? The article is about what a person who happens to be an athlete, I guess, did when he was not being an athlete.
This is apparently a movement happening in the US. I listened to a long interview with a Humane Society rep, who claimed that dog fighting has recently become more popular in urban areas. A disproportionately large percentage of pro athletes come from these disadvantaged areas. Vick is the first to get caught doing this, but the level of unsavory/criminal activity among people who most certainly don't need the money has been steadily growing. The question is, with millions (billions) at stake, will star athletes be punished appropriately for bad behavior, or will we be seeing more of them take it to the next level?
 
I'm just pleased that the authorities have taken this matter seriously, done a thorough and committed investigation, and brought charges against what looks like as many people as they possibly could get evidence against. It's a difficult crime to prosecute; you can have a mountain of evidence indicating that the fighting did take place and still have frustratingly little that shows who was responsible for it. It's heartening to see such a solid effort put forth on this case.
 
R. Richard said:
I'm with Lauren on this one. Vick may or may not go to jail, but he will be punished by being denied the millions that his contract with the Atlanta Falcons calls for. I would think that a fine of enough to take what he now has away from him and leave him penniless on the street would be about right.

However, the fact the Vick is/was an athlete has nothing to do with the matter.
Vick has tens of millions on the line, yet felt the need to start and maintain this activity to be a big shot. Pac Man Jones dropped $30,000 at a strip club during All Star weekend, then punched out a dancer for not behaving the way he wanted her too (then one of his friends shot 4 people in the club). Darrent Williams of the Denver Broncos was murdered following a nightclub dispute on New Years. Chicago's Tank Johnson went to jail this summer for repeated weapons violations, then celebrated his arrest by going to a known dangerous club where his best friend (and convicted felon) was murdered next to him. If you don't think there is a problem among the new athletes in pro sports, I'm going to respectfully disagree.
 
3113 said:
Is there any way we can drown, strangle or electrocute these monsters? Preferably all three, one after the other?

I'm not usually in favor of cruel and unusual punishment, but I'll make an exception in this case. Let the punishment fit the crime.

It's only unusual if you rarely do it. If you do it often enough, it then becomes commonplace.

Yes, I have always disliked that mandate. I find it poorly worded, and even more poorly thought out. Sometimes unusual punishments are the best medicine.
 
TheeGoatPig said:
It's only unusual if you rarely do it. If you do it often enough, it then becomes commonplace.

Yes, I have always disliked that mandate. I find it poorly worded, and even more poorly thought out. Sometimes unusual punishments are the best medicine.
The sad thing is, Vick has not been suspended by the league yet. Until convicted, he might not be (despite mountains of evidence at his home, including the bodies of many dogs). While this kind of behavior is tolerated repeatedly, I'm wondering how anyone is expecting it's going to be discouraged. The people running the teams and the league seem to feel that the performance outweighs the crime.
 
S-Des said:
Vick has tens of millions on the line, yet felt the need to start and maintain this activity to be a big shot. Pac Man Jones dropped $30,000 at a strip club during All Star weekend, then punched out a dancer for not behaving the way he wanted her too (then one of his friends shot 4 people in the club). Darrent Williams of the Denver Broncos was murdered following a nightclub dispute on New Years. Chicago's Tank Johnson went to jail this summer for repeated weapons violations, then celebrated his arrest by going to a known dangerous club where his best friend (and convicted felon) was murdered next to him. If you don't think there is a problem among the new athletes in pro sports, I'm going to respectfully disagree.

There are, of course, problems among pro athletes, just as there are problems among avberage citizens. The difference is that the average guy does not have enough money to get into the kind of trouble the pro athlete does.

You reference new athletes. You might try going back and reading up on the life of Babe Ruth.
 
R. Richard said:
There are, of course, problems among pro athletes, just as there are problems among avberage citizens. The difference is that the average guy does not have enough money to get into the kind of trouble the pro athlete does.

Nor does the average guy have the money to get OUT of that kind of trouble, by buying the best lawyers, etc etc.
 
S-Des said:
The sad thing is, Vick has not been suspended by the league yet. Until convicted, he might not be (despite mountains of evidence at his home, including the bodies of many dogs). While this kind of behavior is tolerated repeatedly, I'm wondering how anyone is expecting it's going to be discouraged. The people running the teams and the league seem to feel that the performance outweighs the crime.

Well, the league and owners are in a nasty position. I don't envy them that. Even if they didn't have financial motives to keep the man around, they're looking at trouble whatever way they go. If they keep him on, people assume that it's because of the money and that they don't care about what their athletes do or how they behave. On the other hand, if they attempt to terminate his contract based on allegations yet to be proven in a court of law, they'll undoubtedly have a lawsuit on their hands by morning, and Mr. Vick appears to have the money to hire a strong legal staff. It's really a no-win situation for them.

The SO and I were talking about that sort of position in a different context the other day - schools that gave satisfactory referrals to teachers who were not re-hired because of suspicions that they had inappropriate relations or physical contact with their students. It's dreadful, and yet in the legal sense it's almost impossible to make a good decision in those circumstances. Keep the teacher on and, now that concerns have been voiced, you'll be sued into oblivion if anything is proven to have occurred at a later point, because you knew that there might be a problem and didn't prevent it. Fire the teacher for the actions or give referrals indicating your suspicions, and you'll be sued into oblivion for destroying the teacher's career and reputation without courtroom-weight proof. Either group of people suing might very well be in the wrong, of course, but as the school's coffers are drained dry by legal costs, it won't be much consolation.

Shanglan
 
Um, as far as I know, athletes, at least in popular sports like baseball and football have always acted this way - popularity as a sports star has pretty much always been a liscense to act like an asshole, and reaffirm your machismo at every opportunity and at anyones expense - didn't any of you go to high school?

Kinda weird really, like the more manly you act, the less secure you are about it or something, maybe just too much testosterone.

At least this was just dogs.
 
xssve said:
At least this was just dogs.
No, it wasn't "just dogs"--it's been shown again and again that kids (and adults) who treat animals badly will treat people badly, too. Serial killers often start off by torturing animals.

So dismissing this as something "fortunate" because only "dogs" got hurt not people is foolish. Psychologically, those who are cruel and inhumane to pets are far more likely to be cruel, callous and inhumane to people.
 
3113 said:
No, it wasn't "just dogs"--it's been shown again and again that kids (and adults) who treat animals badly will treat people badly, too. Serial killers often start off by torturing animals.

So dismissing this as something "fortunate" because only "dogs" got hurt not people is foolish. Psychologically, those who are cruel and inhumane to pets are far more likely to be cruel, callous and inhumane to people.

Athletics of any venue will always have this problem as long as team owners are willing to pay these guys millions of dollars for their abilities. Many of these guys are very young, just out of college (a few rare prodigies right out of high school) and even if they had what you might consider a good life, none of them have ever had this much money before. They don't know how to be responsible. And in the end it leads to shit like this.

God damnit, where's my gun?
 
sad news for the team and their fans...
I was never a huge fan of Vick.. I felt that the team was only hurting themselves by relying on him so much. We'll see how this plays out for the team. Only 22 more days until their first pre-season game. (Yes, I've been counting down the days.)
I guess it's soon time for me to buy a new jersey..

-Sheila
 
I agree with Lee. These people aren't really prepared for the responsibility that amount of money or celebrity puts them in.

It's almost as if, because they are given very large sums of money in big chunks for something they have always done and would probably do even if they couldn;t earn a living by it (ie- play sport) it's as if they haven't earned it.... not in the way say, and entrepreneur has earned it. Therefore they don;t feel the same ownership and responsibility to the money itself and can the blow it a lot more easily than if they felt they had had to squeeze every penny they could... Obviously there are exceptions to the rule, but the majority of these super-rich sportsmen seem to act as if they're spending someone else's money, not their own.

Dont get me into salaries for sportsmen, though, it;s absurd. footballers (soccer players to you Americans) can earn in a week - or even a day - what it would take a year for someone like a nurse to earn. I think that is sickening on many levels, then to see the footballers blowing all that money on complete shite (like Colleen whatsherface) <shakes head> it just compounds it. These people have, by dint of their talent for kicking a ball about, become millionnaires and role models for countless children, but Beckham, irritating as he is, is probably the only one I can name who actually tries to live up his position as a role model.

</rant and threadjack>

Sorry S Des... hobby horse of mine.
x
V
 
3113 said:
No, it wasn't "just dogs"--it's been shown again and again that kids (and adults) who treat animals badly will treat people badly, too. Serial killers often start off by torturing animals.

So dismissing this as something "fortunate" because only "dogs" got hurt not people is foolish. Psychologically, those who are cruel and inhumane to pets are far more likely to be cruel, callous and inhumane to people.
I've seen worse is all I'm saying.
 
Don't totally dismiss the fact that dog-fighting is part of African-American ghetto image. Sad, but true. My friend did an excellent job of discussing the racial aspects of this unfortunate incident in his blog:

ThaShow

Of course, I don't condone Vick's behavior. He should be punished just like everyone else involved.

-Sheila
 
BlackShanglan said:
The SO and I were talking about that sort of position in a different context the other day - schools that gave satisfactory referrals to teachers who were not re-hired because of suspicions that they had inappropriate relations or physical contact with their students. It's dreadful, and yet in the legal sense it's almost impossible to make a good decision in those circumstances. Keep the teacher on and, now that concerns have been voiced, you'll be sued into oblivion if anything is proven to have occurred at a later point, because you knew that there might be a problem and didn't prevent it. Fire the teacher for the actions or give referrals indicating your suspicions, and you'll be sued into oblivion for destroying the teacher's career and reputation without courtroom-weight proof. Either group of people suing might very well be in the wrong, of course, but as the school's coffers are drained dry by legal costs, it won't be much consolation.

Shanglan

Actually, some thought might be given to the third party involved in the matter, the children. Frequently the teacher who has 'inappropriate relations' with one child hits on several children, before the actual damage is done. The offenses are frequently quite simple to prove. However, the schools don't like to undermine their own image.

If there is sufficient evidence, the matter is quite simple. There are basically four parties to a legal action. On the one side is the school and the children. On the other side is the teacher and the teacher's union. If there is sufficient evidence, as is frequently the case, the teacher can be taken down hard and the union can pay damages. However, most schools lack the guts to pursue legal action to protect the students under their care. JMNTHO.
 
S-Des said:
We know he didn't need the money, so wtf??? Not for those with weak stomachs.

RICHMOND, Va. - When a Bad Newz Kennels dog was wounded in a losing fight, NFL star Michael Vick was consulted before the animal was doused with water and electrocuted. That's just one of the gruesome details that emerged Tuesday when the Atlanta Falcons quarterback and three others were indicted by a federal grand jury.

The four were charged with competitive dogfighting, procuring and training pit bulls for fighting and conducting the enterprise across state lines.

The 18-page indictment, filed in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia, alleged the 27-year-old Vick and his co-defendants began the dogfighting operation in early 2001, the former Virginia Tech star's rookie year as the No. 1 pick.

The operation was centered at a property Vick owned in Surry County, where a fence shielded prying eyes from the back, and the two-story brick home was surrounded by fencing in the front, with several black buildings further back.

Unlike previous documents, which did not name Vick, the indictment is littered with his name, including this tidbit — Vick was known as "Ookie" in the dogfighting world.

If convicted of all the charges, Vick and the others — Purnell A. Peace, 35, of Virginia Beach; Quanis L. Phillips, 28, of Atlanta; and Tony Taylor, 34, of Hampton — could face up to six years in prison, $350,000 in fines and restitution.

About eight young dogs were put to death at the Surry County home after they were found not ready to fight in April 2007, the indictment said. They were killed "by hanging, drowning and/or slamming at least one dog's body to the ground."

"Some of the grisly details in these filings shocked even me, and I'm a person who faces this stuff every day," Goodwin said. "I was surprised to see that they were killing dogs by hanging them, and one dog was killed by slamming it to the ground. Those are extremely violent methods of execution — they're unnecessary and just sick."

Purses for the fights ranged from hundreds of dollars to the thousands, and participants and spectators often placed side bets on the outcome, according to the indictment.

After two Bad Newz Kennels dogs lost fights in March 2003, the indictment alleged Vick gave a bag containing $23,000 to the owner of the winning dogs.

Started in early 2002, according to the indictment, Bad Newz Kennels began purchasing pit bulls to train as fighters. Eventually, the defendants bought shirts and headbands "representing and promoting their affiliation."


The indictment said dogfights were held at the Virginia property and dog owners brought animals from six states, including New York and Texas.

At the start, authorities seized 66 dogs, including 55 pit bulls, and equipment commonly used in dogfighting. About half the dogs were tethered to car axles with heavy chains that allowed the dogs to get close to each other, but not to have contact — an arrangement typical for fighting dogs, according to the search warrant affidavit.

Before fights, participating dogs of the same sex would be weighed and bathed, according to the filings. Opposing dogs would be washed to remove any poison or narcotic placed on the dog's coat that could affect the other dog's performance.

Sometimes, dogs weren't fed to "make it more hungry for the other dog."

Fights would end when one dog died or with the surrender of the losing dog, which was sometimes put to death by drowning, strangulation, hanging, gun shot, electrocution or some other method, according to the documents.

Its too bad we are more grossed out and sad when it happens to animals than to our fellow beings. :(
 
CharleyH said:
Its too bad we are more grossed out and sad when it happens to animals than to our fellow beings. :(

Well... perhaps it's because animals are even less able to stand up for themselves than most humans? You only have to see the thread on priests abusing children to see that it's *any* innocent creature who must trust in adult humans for care and attention being abused that raises the hackles of everyone here...

x
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Vermilion said:
Well... perhaps it's because animals are even less able to stand up for themselves than most humans?

No - many babies and children feel the same and are in more desperate need and help from us than animals are. :kiss:

You only have to see the thread on priests abusing children to see that it's *any* innocent creature who must trust in adult humans for care and attention being abused that raises the hackles of everyone here...

I'm not sure where you are going with this. :) Explain more?
 
CharleyH said:
No - many babies and children feel the same and are in more desperate need and help from us than animals are. :kiss:



I'm not sure where you are going with this. :) Explain more?

we lump babies/children and animals together in that we feel endless compassion for them. it's pain and suffering for adult humans where the sympathy is not always so forthcoming...
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