The MFA Discussion Thread

[Tzara]

The topic of the value, or lack of value, of the Master of Fine Arts degree in writing comes up here periodically (see, for example, here). It would seem to be a relevant topic for people serious about writing poetry or fiction (or, for that matter, drama or non-fiction). I know we here on the PF&D have skirmished about the periphery of the topic while mainly talking about other things, but I would like to open this up as a topic unto itself and try to work out what we all think about it. As this is a topic that would seem to also apply to writers of fiction equally well as to poets, I welcome fiction writers' comments on this as well as poets. (Or, for that matter, anyone's comments, of course.)

So. What the heck are your collective thoughts about the MFA degree? Is it useful? Invaluable? Irrelevant? Would you like to get one? Do you wish you had one? Do you think it is irrelevant/stupid/a waste of time?

If you'd like to have one, why? If you think it's a dumb idea, why?

I suppose if you think of it as irrelevant, you don't really care one way or the other, but I'd still love your comment as to why you think that.

Anyway. Tell me what you think.





I know we have some MFA students out there. At least one or two. Your comments, people, would be especially appreciated.

 

[bronzeage]

I have several friends who either have an MFA, or are in MFA grad programs. As far as I can tell, the ones who have the degree have not benefited from it and those in school are not certain if it will be a benefit to them.

If one wants an academic position, it's a good to have. You'll be ahead of all the other English BA's who apply for the job. I am not sure what good it will do. There are probably three English Phd's for every open position.

It might help one land a job, but it won't sell one more book, just because the author can put MFA on the jacket.

 

[rjordan]

I have several friends who either have an MFA, or are in MFA grad programs. As far as I can tell, the ones who have the degree have not benefited from it and those in school are not certain if it will be a benefit to them.

If one wants an academic position, it's a good to have. You'll be ahead of all the other English BA's who apply for the job. I am not sure what good it will do. There are probably three English Phd's for every open position.

It might help one land a job, but it won't sell one more book, just because the author can put MFA on the jacket.

What sort of academic position would suit a BA in English? Third grade? Or even an MFA? Some colleges and universities will hire MFAs as adjunct, where you are basically unemployed at the end of every semester/quarter, but that's about it. An MFA will get you in a higher pay level in high school.

It's too bad that university degrees now are only valued for how well they prepare you for the corporate army. They aren't valued for the knowledge or discipline that they represent for the individual. That makes it very easy to answer the original question. There are is no value in any training not related to business management or science anymore.

rj

 

[butters]

never having studied writing in further education, i don't feel i know enough to be able to offer a valid opinion as to how relevant or beneficial the degree might be to the person who earns it.

what i would hope is that the prolonged and detailed study of writing would be of some major benefit to the growing writer:

• surely it must supply the tools you then can access at will
• broaden your literary horizons by introducing you to different writers and their styles whilst providing you the ability to better understand what they are doing on a technical level
• encourage empathy towards the varying works by developing perspective

i'm not saying a person who hasn't studied formally can't be a fantastic writer. if someone has that natural talent, they will almost always write better than someone who lacks it but has studied writing. if they have the talent and then study to hone what they have, i would hope it would serve them well - though i've heard some say it spoilt the organic nature of writing for them, making it something dry and unlovable, enough to stop them pursuing their creativity.

it is true that in the higher poetic circles if you've no writing degrees then you are considered not worth spending time reading/listening to? i want that not to be true.

like any uni degree, there are those who'll benefit from taking it and those who will gain nothing from the experience. how much that's down to what you bring to the table is debatable, of course. i'm probably too lazy, and definitely too busy, to even think about studying up to that level. i am not sitting smug and boozily artistic imagining i am the better writer for that.

 

[bronzeage]

What sort of academic position would suit a BA in English? Third grade? Or even an MFA? Some colleges and universities will hire MFAs as adjunct, where you are basically unemployed at the end of every semester/quarter, but that's about it. An MFA will get you in a higher pay level in high school.

It's too bad that university degrees now are only valued for how well they prepare you for the corporate army. They aren't valued for the knowledge or discipline that they represent for the individual. That makes it very easy to answer the original question. There are is no value in any training not related to business management or science anymore.

rj

If an MFA wants a university position, they will be competing with regular grad students as English instructors and teaching assistants. Community colleges hire Master's level degree holders, so I am sure all the Creative Writing courses are now staffed by MFA's.

You raise a pertinent point about a liberal arts education. It was never intended to prepare a person for the business world. A BA was intended to educate the sons (and later, daughters) of the wealthy, so they would not grow up to be ignorant boors when it came their turn to handle the family fortune. It was never intended to provide an education which would lead to a career and a good living. They started with a good living and had no need for a career.

 

[LillyRoses]

Lol

@ Bronzeage:

That would explain why my BA degree was about as useless as the day is long. It does make for some pretty wallpaper however.

In terms of the MFA. I have met a couple of MFA graduates and asked if they felt it was worth it. Considering they were unemployed and struggling, they replied that it had not helped.

I have also spoken with publishers who have read my work and they informed me that if someone is a good writer (as they believed I was)--then they do not need the MFA degree.

I have had many people with MFA's read my writing and have read theirs and I can honestly tell you that I can't tell the difference. They may be familiar with a few more technical words and may make better editors than I ever would but that is about a far as it goes.

Oh...and yeah...MFA's can teach (literature, writing, etc) in universities and people without the degree cannot.

For some, it gives a degree of confidence and maturity to their profession goals. At my age, another degree (I have two that I barely utilize) would really not make much of a difference in terms of my confidence or maturity.

I hope that input helps.

LillyR.

 

[Angeline]

I'd love to get an MFA. I have a BA in English and a Master's in Education, the latter being a career choice motivated mainly by people telling me I'd never make any money if I went to grad school for English. Well hardy har har because most of my career has been all about my ability to write and fix other peoples' writing, so maybe the MFA would have been a fine move. Who knows?

If I did it now it would be totally a labor of love. I imagine I'd love it for the same reason I love hanging out here with so many of you: I'm a writer and I like being around other writers. I'm sure I'd be less enchanted with the cutthroat competitiveness at many of these places. As I've often said here, I never consider myself in competition with anyone but me, and I find all the drama related to some others' need to compete to be a distraction. Any of us will be published or we won't, right? I don't write because I'm motivated to be published and I don't understand people who do. I'm certainly not against conventional success, but this is poetry after all. Success in poetry for me means I wrote a good poem...

I did some teaching in Iowa City and worked with a lot of people who were (or had been) in the Writers Workshop there. They were all very nice and mostly really smart and funny, but I know from a lot of academic experience that when people feel pitted against one another it all gets a little too Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf for me.

I have toyed with the idea of an MFA from the Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics at Naropa University in Colorado. They have a low-residence requirement MFA program in creative writing and I like the people associated with the school. I think you only have to actually live there for three months, parts of which you can complete by attending their summer writing festival. (See, I really have thought about this!) Also, they used to (maybe still do) offer a fellowship in Ted Berrigan's name and, being he is one of my poetry gods, I do like to fantasize about applying for and receiving that.

Until reality floods in again. Eagleyez and I have four kids between us, three of whom are currently in college. And the fourth will be there in another year. So I kinda need to win the lottery before I can go for another degree for myself.

Sorry for the rambling. One of those kind of days for me.

 

[SusanJillParker]

I was going to attend Emerson College in Boston for their MFA program in creative writing but my professor changed my mind.

"Unless you're going to teach, it's a waste of time," he said.

Only, it would have given value to know the names of what I'm doing when I'm writing it, instead of writing by natural talent, instinct, and seat of the pants reaction. I would have loved to know how to disect a story by intimately know what techniques the writer is using, along with all the names that go along with it.

I think any education is valuable. I have a BS in English with creative writing and literature minors, along with a degree in business. Northeastern University required it's English majors to take only 5 writing courses. I took all 32, but for business writing, copywriting, and technical writing.

After the smoke cleared, I realized that no one can teach you how to write. Either you have the disease of passion or you don't. Either you're willing to sit for hours and write or you won't. Either you have the discipline and the desire to pass up invitations and shut out the world or you can't.

We writers are all a different breed of animals. Willing to lock ourselves away with our characters, there's something wrong with people who write for a living but I wouldn't change it for the world.

I say, if you have the time and money, go for the MFA and you'll be in a select minority heads and shoulders above the rest of us. Education will never hurt, only help.

The best compliment I ever received was making my creative writing professor cry when he read my final exam paper. Wow.

One of my creative writing professors, the late, great, Robert Parker, no relation, was the first to have a Ph D in detective fiction. He didn't think having that type of eductation to write Spencer for Hire and Blue Bloods was overkill.

Good luck

 

[butters]

As I've often said here, I never consider myself in competition with anyone but me, and I find all the drama related to some others' need to compete to be a distraction. Any of us will be published or we won't, right? I don't write because I'm motivated to be published and I don't understand people who do. I'm certainly not against conventional success, but this is poetry after all. Success in poetry for me means I wrote a good poem...

this. absolutely this.

I have toyed with the idea of an MFA from the Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics at Naropa University in Colorado. ... Also, they used to (maybe still do) offer a fellowship in Ted Berrigan's name and, being he is one of my poetry gods, I do like to fantasize about applying for and receiving that.

Until reality floods in again. Eagleyez and I have four kids between us, three of whom are currently in college. And the fourth will be there in another year. So I kinda need to win the lottery before I can go for another degree for myself.

disembodied poets? how great is that name? and you never know what the future may bring, angelinadreamer

 

[twelveoone]

it is true that in the higher poetic circles if you've no writing degrees then you are considered not worth spending time reading/listening to? i want that not to be true.

the most interesting (there's that word again), i've ever seen were here. (annaswirls, WickedEve , prime examples for me early on, later fridayam and espie? ) and if you ain't interesting, why the hell bother?
BTW bubska, you next on my "what the fuck are they doing list"

education is fine, just too much orthodoxy sets in, and that is right next door to dogma.

education is fine, just be prepared to start unlearning


higher poetic circles -what the hell is that? sounds like some druid thing where they stand around an oak tree and recite their poetry until the tree dies of boredom

I think I shall never bore a tree
as thoroughly as with higher poetry

 

[bronzeage]

the most interesting (there's that word again), i've ever seen were here. (annaswirls, WickedEve , prime examples for me early on, later fridayam and espie? ) and if you ain't interesting, why the hell bother?
BTW bubska, you next on my "what the fuck are they doing list"

education is fine, just too much orthodoxy sets in, and that is right next door to dogma.

education is fine, just be prepared to start unlearning


higher poetic circles -what the hell is that? sounds like some druid thing where they stand around an oak tree and recite their poetry until the tree dies of boredom

I think I shall never bore a tree
as thoroughly as with higher poetry

Come on. You've never been in a higher poetic circle? You know, where you write all night and the next morning discover a yellow legal pad filled with three pages of stars and little four leaf clovers, filled in with a basket weave pattern.

I'm sure everyone has watched enough late night TV to see commercials for companies that buy gold and other companies that sell gold. There is money to made on both sides of the deal. There is nothing wrong with the concept of an MFA program, but it's just a version of the gold game.

Pick any of the highest income writers in the past 50 years. How many of them are on the faculty of a university? I can name Tolkien and C.S. Lewis as famous academic authors, but after that, I'm stumped. I know it will shock some people when I reveal I come from an academic background. I am familiar with the politics and incestuous manipulations of a university. In the pure sciences and applied sciences, as well, research is highly valued. Most of this research is performed by grad students. The lead professor gets the glory. He also gets glory if any of his grad students go on to do great things for themselves. Research is mostly funded by grants from business and industry. Exxon, Dupont, Cargill, Monsanto, Physer, etc, the list goes on and on. It keeps professors on the job and most important of all, well paid.

An English professor can't appeal to Cieba-Giegy for research grants. It doesn't work that way. He can start a program which attracts bright young students, who will happily pay the thousands of tuition dollars it takes to earn a Master of Fine Arts degree in writing. There is always the odd chance one of his students will be the next J.K. Rowling or Stephen King. There might even be a Rosemary Rogers in the mix. A professor can dream. One day, our professor emeritus will appear on some PBS program and tell of how he spotted this now well lauded author, and knew when he read her "The night my grandmother died" essay, she was something special.

In the meantime, it pays the bills.

 

[Angeline]

Come on. You've never been in a higher poetic circle? You know, where you write all night and the next morning discover a yellow legal pad filled with three pages of stars and little four leaf clovers, filled in with a basket weave pattern.

I'm sure everyone has watched enough late night TV to see commercials for companies that buy gold and other companies that sell gold. There is money to made on both sides of the deal. There is nothing wrong with the concept of an MFA program, but it's just a version of the gold game.

Pick any of the highest income writers in the past 50 years. How many of them are on the faculty of a university? I can name Tolkien and C.S. Lewis as famous academic authors, but after that, I'm stumped. I know it will shock some people when I reveal I come from an academic background. I am familiar with the politics and incestuous manipulations of a university. In the pure sciences and applied sciences, as well, research is highly valued. Most of this research is performed by grad students. The lead professor gets the glory. He also gets glory if any of his grad students go on to do great things for themselves. Research is mostly funded by grants from business and industry. Exxon, Dupont, Cargill, Monsanto, Physer, etc, the list goes on and on. It keeps professors on the job and most important of all, well paid.

An English professor can't appeal to Cieba-Giegy for research grants. It doesn't work that way. He can start a program which attracts bright young students, who will happily pay the thousands of tuition dollars it takes to earn a Master of Fine Arts degree in writing. There is always the odd chance one of his students will be the next J.K. Rowling or Stephen King. There might even be a Rosemary Rogers in the mix. A professor can dream. One day, our professor emeritus will appear on some PBS program and tell of how he spotted this now well lauded author, and knew when he read her "The night my grandmother died" essay, she was something special.

In the meantime, it pays the bills.

Your story about what academic fields get funded reminded me of a college experience. In my senior year one of my roommates was a chemistry major, marine chemistry. She was a very smart young woman and excelled at her studies. Well so did I. I graduated with honors, had almost as high a GPA as one can get (it was pulled down a tad by an audiology course I took and then dropped out of in my freshman year...don't ask). I had two other roommates, one an English major like me and the other a classics major. All four of us had attained much academic success. As the end of senior year rolled around, our phone began ringing off the hook for Sue (the chem major). She got one fellowship offer after another. There were so many of them--well she was really talented--but the point is that she was a woman in the sciences, everyone wanted her. The rest of us, not so much. In fact, neither I nor Anne (the other English major) got any type of fellowship offers for English. Oh I got a few in education, one of which I accepted, but like you said Bronze, there's no money out there to fund people who want advanced degrees in writing or literature. And I don't think there ever was.

I find that unfortunate because being able to communicate clearly and well in writing, and being able to adapt that skill to write for specific purposes is really underrated. And yet if you have it you can do extremely well in the corporate world simply because so few people there do. At least that was my experience.

 

[bronzeage]

Your story about what academic fields get funded reminded me of a college experience. In my senior year one of my roommates was a chemistry major, marine chemistry. She was a very smart young woman and excelled at her studies. Well so did I. I graduated with honors, had almost as high a GPA as one can get (it was pulled down a tad by an audiology course I took and then dropped out of in my freshman year...don't ask). I had two other roommates, one an English major like me and the other a classics major. All four of us had attained much academic success. As the end of senior year rolled around, our phone began ringing off the hook for Sue (the chem major). She got one fellowship offer after another. There were so many of them--well she was really talented--but the point is that she was a woman in the sciences, everyone wanted her. The rest of us, not so much. In fact, neither I nor Anne (the other English major) got any type of fellowship offers for English. Oh I got a few in education, one of which I accepted, but like you said Bronze, there's no money out there to fund people who want advanced degrees in writing or literature. And I don't think there ever was.

I find that unfortunate because being able to communicate clearly and well in writing, and being able to adapt that skill to write for specific purposes is really underrated. And yet if you have it you can do extremely well in the corporate world simply because so few people there do. At least that was my experience.

Compare the starting salaries of an MFA and an MBA, if you can find an employed MFA. The MBA concept was created for the same reason as the MFA. It captures the money of eager business grads and keeps the Business Admin department in the green. Fortunately for the MBA, it is MBA's who do the hiring over at IBM or Morgan-Stanley.

 

[twelveoone]

Come on. You've never been in a higher poetic circle? You know, where you write all night and the next morning discover a yellow legal pad filled with three pages of stars and little four leaf clovers, filled in with a basket weave pattern.

I'm sure everyone has watched enough late night TV to see commercials for companies that buy gold and other companies that sell gold. There is money to made on both sides of the deal. There is nothing wrong with the concept of an MFA program, but it's just a version of the gold game.

Pick any of the highest income writers in the past 50 years. How many of them are on the faculty of a university? I can name Tolkien and C.S. Lewis as famous academic authors, but after that, I'm stumped. I know it will shock some people when I reveal I come from an academic background. I am familiar with the politics and incestuous manipulations of a university. In the pure sciences and applied sciences, as well, research is highly valued. Most of this research is performed by grad students. The lead professor gets the glory. He also gets glory if any of his grad students go on to do great things for themselves. Research is mostly funded by grants from business and industry. Exxon, Dupont, Cargill, Monsanto, Physer, etc, the list goes on and on. It keeps professors on the job and most important of all, well paid.

An English professor can't appeal to Cieba-Giegy for research grants. It doesn't work that way. He can start a program which attracts bright young students, who will happily pay the thousands of tuition dollars it takes to earn a Master of Fine Arts degree in writing. There is always the odd chance one of his students will be the next J.K. Rowling or Stephen King. There might even be a Rosemary Rogers in the mix. A professor can dream. One day, our professor emeritus will appear on some PBS program and tell of how he spotted this now well lauded author, and knew when he read her "The night my grandmother died" essay, she was something special.

In the meantime, it pays the bills.

oh, good i thought chip was talking about drugs

as for the rest of this, i knew there was a reason i liked you
"MFA program, but it's just a version of the gold game."

the real reason to be a "professional" are the tax write-offs.

 

[twelveoone]

The topic of the value, or lack of value, of the Master of Fine Arts degree in writing comes up here periodically (see, for example, here). It would seem to be a relevant topic for people serious about writing poetry or fiction (or, for that matter, drama or non-fiction). I know we here on the PF&D have skirmished about the periphery of the topic while mainly talking about other things, but I would like to open this up as a topic unto itself and try to work out what we all think about it. As this is a topic that would seem to also apply to writers of fiction equally well as to poets, I welcome fiction writers' comments on this as well as poets. (Or, for that matter, anyone's comments, of course.)

So. What the heck are your collective thoughts about the MFA degree? Is it useful? Invaluable? Irrelevant? Would you like to get one? Do you wish you had one? Do you think it is irrelevant/stupid/a waste of time?

If you'd like to have one, why? If you think it's a dumb idea, why?

I suppose if you think of it as irrelevant, you don't really care one way or the other, but I'd still love your comment as to why you think that.

Anyway. Tell me what you think.





I know we have some MFA students out there. At least one or two. Your comments, people, would be especially appreciated.

why do you want to know?
the value assigned is subjective

btw picked up a new book by Philip Schultz winner of the 2008 Pulitzer Prize $1.

 

[The_Fool]

I've been wanting to make an MFA my next degree. That will be when I am old and coeds are wondering what that icky old fucker is doing in college.

 

[Angeline]

I've been wanting to make an MFA my next degree. That will be when I am old and coeds are wondering what that icky old fucker is doing in college.

If we both go to Naropa, we can totter around together.

 

[The_Fool]

If we both go to Naropa, we can totter around together.

You inspire me always. I'd turn out all kinds of psuedo poemies. Just call me Rod McK.

 

[bronzeage]

oh, good i thought chip was talking about drugs

as for the rest of this, i knew there was a reason i liked you
"MFA program, but it's just a version of the gold game."

the real reason to be a "professional" are the tax write-offs.

One has to have income, to have write offs.

 

[Angeline]

You inspire me always. I'd turn out all kinds of psuedo poemies. Just call me Rod McK.

Oy vey.

 

[PandoraGlitters]

You guys are kinda making me want another MFA. Not the intent, probably, but I find myself oddly pulled toward the idea when I never was before. Hmmmm.

 

[The_Fool]

I keep thinking about walking into that first poetry class and thinking, "What the fuck are they talking about?"


With my luck, the first assignment would be a flipping sonnet.

 

[Angeline]

I keep thinking about walking into that first poetry class and thinking, "What the fuck are they talking about?"


With my luck, the first assignment would be a flipping sonnet.

Or that other one that also begins with an S, but which shall not be named. By me.

 

[ninianne]

Well, I'm currently in an MFA program for fiction. I enjoy it--the classes, the friendships, and the opportunity to teach . . . sort of (I'm presently struggling through my first semester teaching Freshman composition).

But the main reason I went back to school is for the workshops. Everyone needs someone who they trust to run their writing by. Now, I'm not saying that everyone in the fiction workshop I'm part of this semester has the same skill level. But the same can be said for any other workshop I've ever been in. And I'm not saying that there are certain things I would never submit to workshop--I love fantasy but I wouldn't run it past my professor, who has a remarkably closed mind about some things. But again, the same can be said of any other workshop. There have been places I'd never take my erotica.

And a million years from now, when I've turned completely grey from thesis stress and officially graduated, I will have the training to be a complete drain on society. My professors have postulated a glowing future which includes teaching 10 different sections of freshman composition at 4 different colleges/universities to make roughly $30000 a year (that's 10/semester, 20/year), and that's if I have transportation and a solid background in teaching.

If I want to be able to get a tenure track (before they throw that concept completely away sometime before I graduate) position, an MFA will work. It's considered a terminal degree (doesn't that sound disturbing? like terminal cancer) in academic circles--as long as it comes with significant, (by which we mean literary) publication credit. There is no way to get a job in an English department, MFA or PhD without publication credit.

More likely, when I graduate, I will resort to my background in technical writing, try to become an editor, or do the other thing I've been thinking of: go back to school and get a Master of Library Science. I think they're slightly more marketable.

Maybe.

 

[Tzara]

I want to thank you all for your comments on this thread and apologize for my absence in responding to your very interesting thoughts on the topic.

I'm actually quite time-limited at the moment, so I'll have to cherry-pick my initial response:

I've been wanting to make an MFA my next degree. That will be when I am old and coeds are wondering what that icky old fucker is doing in college.

Oh, Foolie. That is all so much my retirement plan (well, except the "icky old fucker" part, which I hope to magically transform to "older and sophisticated man who knows how to give me cascaded orgasms"), that I think you must be managing my portfolio.

Anyway, people, thanks for the responses. I'll try to talk about these over the next few days.