The Kurds

[REDWAVE]

Because of the planned U.S. invasion of Iraq, the Kurds have taken on a special importance. Kurds are spread throughout five nations in the Middle East: Turkey, Iraq, Syria, Iran, and Armenia. There are an estimated 25-30 million Kurds, half of them in Turkey. About 3.5-4 million are in Iraq. They are an Indo-European people, and mostly Sunni Muslims. For most people, the Middle East conjures up images of deserts and palm trees. However, the Kurds live in a very different part of the Middle East, a land of tall mountains and huge rivers. Kurdistan gets a lot of rainfall, and has cold winters. It also has many magnificent gorges, the most notable of which is called the Gali Ali Beg.

The Kurdish people love music, poetry, and dance. Men and women often dance together in the villages. (The Taliban would not approve of them.) Kurdish musicians often play a type of flute called the zornah, or a drum called the dohol. Kurds love flowers and usually wear colorful clothes. They are great walkers and mountain climbers. Kurdish independence fighters are called peshmerga-- those who face death.

Iraqi Kurds have set up a de facto independent state in northern Iraq in recent years, under the protection of the U.S. imposed "no fly" zone. Turkish Kurds are the most cruelly oppressed of all.

Much has been made of Saddam Hussein "gassing his own people." Iraqi aircraft shelled the town of Halabja with chemical weapons on March 16, 1988, leaving 5,000 dead and 7,000 injured or with long-term illness. This was during the Iraq-Iran war, and it should be noted the U.S. government supported Iraq against Iran at the time. Also, some question whether it was Iraq or Iran which did the chemical shelling.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

So noted. So what?

 

[Guest]

I prefer the WHAYS but only when I'm tuffeting.

 

[Sandia]

There's no question here, REDWAVE, and you haven't made any intentionally infammatory declarations. You're gonna be disappointed by the response.

But, yeah, I'm curious about the Kurds too. I read an article about the gassing of one of their villages a while back. It was pretty terrible. Killing civilians is always a terrible thing, though.

 

[REDWAVE]

For the reader to decide

What, you think this is just a subtle way for me to promote my socialist "agenda," (as you like to call it), DCL? I'm not necessarily advocating anything in this thread. Each reader can draw whatever conclusions they will. But if you insist on me making a political point, here's one. The Kurds of northern Iraq have already acheived de facto independence, as I mentioned. Thus, they're not particularly eager to see Saddam toppled, since they would likely lose their independence under a new, U.S. backed regime in Baghdad.

Also, it's blatantly hypocritical for the U.S. government to profess concern about Iraqi Kurds, when Kurds in Turkey (big U.S. ally) are brutally suppressed, without a peep of protest from the State Department.

 

[Lost Cause]

My only concern...

Not to help any future Bin Laden's, or Taliban.
If a majority of them profess the religion of intolerance for "infidels", fuck 'em all, let em die..all of them. Let the Hyenas and Jackals pick at their remains, and let their cities turn to sand....in other words, stay on our side of the fence and let the most brutal side win. I don't want our soldiers dying for another ungrateful regime! (Saudi Arabia/Kuwait)

*Peace through precision termination.

 

[Problem Child]

I prefer the WHAYS but only when I'm tuffeting.

your spelling buddy sez:

whey



stupid fucking troll.

 

[REDWAVE]

Thanks for your input, LC

Thanks for expressing the openly fascist and racist view here, Lost Cause. Such candor is actually somewhat refreshing. I actually prefer it to the weasel types like DCL, who poses as a "liberal" and tries to conceal the true agenda. You, on the other hand, let it all hang out (remember that old '60's song?).

 

[JazzManJim]

Re: For the reader to decide

The Kurds of northern Iraq have already acheived de facto independence, as I mentioned. Thus, they're not particularly eager to see Saddam toppled, since they would likely lose their independence under a new, U.S. backed regime in Baghdad.

I can't say that you're right on this one.

The Kurds actually have independence insofar as Hussein isn't having their villages missiled by helicopter. The entire reason the No-Fly Zones exist are to protect some peoples Hussein was doing his dead-level best to exterminate. The Kurds are the largest of those groups.

Remember that Hussein is a self-proclaimed aficionado of Stalin who fancies himself a leader in exactly the same mold.

But I don't know how much help the Kurds would be willing to give. We (in a move I still think was a foolish and faithless thing to do) in the United States hung the Kurds out to dry at the end of the Gulf War. We promised that if they set up an governmental structure with leaders and everything, and rose up, then we'd support them. We didn't and they were slaughtered. So it's understandable if they were a bit twitchy about trusting us again.

 

[REDWAVE]

Good point, JMJ

Good point, Jazz Man J. Pappy betrayed the Kurds back in 1991, setting them up for slaughter by Hussein's troops. I'm sure they're real leery about Drubya.

You know the old saying: "Like father, like son . . ."

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

I actually prefer it to the weasel types like DCL, who poses as a "liberal" and tries to conceal the true agenda.

Way to fringe yourself, man. Everyone will take you seriously now. Good plan.

Ya hippie freak.

 

[REDWAVE]

"Ya hippie freak"

Gee, DCL, that's the nicest thing you've ever said about me.

You're not starting to get soft, are you?


Anyhoo, for more info, including a map, about the Kurds, click on this:

http://washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/daily/feb99/kurdprofile.htm

 

[iwmggw]

Re: Thanks for your input, LC

. I actually prefer it to the weasel types like DCL, who poses as a "liberal" and tries to conceal the true agenda. _____________________________________________ Thanks.......for "outing" DCL. I fell for his liberal rhetoric, and his ceaseless (and shameless), propaganda.


From now on I will blindly, and mindlessly follow you and the true path to a peaceful existance.................as soon as we kill off the intelligensia. Power to the people!

 

[SINthysist]

That's what we need.

Further Balkanization of the world and for every single little tribe to have it's own piece of turf. I think before even talking about being a country we should have a minimum standard of, "Can you build and maintain an infrastructure to an extend that you would actually be better off as a country...

You're getting it though!

 

[SINthysist]

iwwmgw - perhaps he was saying, "Why does someone jump in just to make a negative comment when silence does the exact same thing so much more graciously..."

But RED, instead, selected a response of the same tenor.

 

[iwmggw]

SINthysist

gee......hope I didn't offend anybody by putting in my 2 cents worth..........ok a cent, cent and a half tops. (I was only trying to be honest.....see Thomas Paine). As far as the 1st part of your reasoning......................naaaaaaaaaah, no way Redwave would come up with such a civilized thought, so........I'd have to say, "perhaps not."

 

[Guest]

Because of the planned U.S. invasion of Iraq, the Kurds have taken on a special importance. <snip> Also, some question whether it was Iraq or Iran which did the chemical shelling.

You are sounding like yayati on an Ecstacy pill, Red. Tell me about Turkish Kurds whose homes are going to be under the water soon. What are you going to do for them?

 

[REDWAVE]

Free the Kurds!

The Kurds are a fascinating people, who deserve better, much better, than what they're getting, especially in Turkey.

 

[Rex1960]

The problem of the Kurds is their lack of political unity since ages.

Aprox. 20 million people of different sects and different dialects divided into severel groups and tribes, divided by artificial boundaries have never successfully reached a political level as a nation since the 7th century.

The three most powerful kurdish organisations, the PKK (Kurdistan Workers Party) in Turkey, the KDP (Kurdistan Demotratic Party) and the PUK (Patriotic Union of Kurdistan) in Iraq are far away from being united when it comes to negotiations about a unified Kurdish Nation.

And that's what it makes so difficult for e.g. the US to support their fight against Baghdad/Saddam Hussein.

Rex

 

[REDWAVE]

Blaming the victims

You make it sound like it's the Kurds' fault they're oppressed, Rex. This is a common phenomenon of capitalist society in its late stage of neo-imperialist degeneration. The myriad victims of capitalist injustice must somehow be scapegoated and blamed for being oppressed. Otherwise, people might wake up to the fact that it is the capitalist system which is to blame.

And we can't have that, now can we?

 

[SINthysist]

Up until recent times, they were all either Turks or Desert Nomads. They are simply unprepared to run a country. The share a lot in common with the "Royal" Saudis.

 

[Rex1960]

Re: Blaming the victims

You make it sound like it's the Kurds' fault they're oppressed, Rex. This is a common phenomenon of capitalist society in its late stage of neo-imperialist degeneration. The myriad victims of capitalist injustice must somehow be scapegoated and blamed for being oppressed. Otherwise, people might wake up to the fact that it is the capitalist system which is to blame.

And we can't have that, now can we?

If people are unhappy with their society they are free to chose another one...
The only historical reason for all those evolutions and revolutions.

If they need to overcome an oppressor or dictator, they should just gather and concentrate their efforts for the sake of that major goal.

The Kurds chosed to stuck in their internal tribal fights since ages (somehow like Afhganistan) and if you got any idea of historical facts you could hardly consider the first Arab conquer of Kurdistan back in the 7th century a capitalistic motivated one.

If the Kurds are willing to overcome the turkish/iraqi/iranian rulers they should just go for it. You might tell them something about peaceful negotiations and how to get support by UN or any other authority you value.

And somehow we all know that will never happen. All "freedom fighters" chose terrorist acts claiming all those "colateral damage" to civilians are good under their higher value as if they own a special justice.

Don't get me wrong. I truly believe all nations have the right to be free. But I also know just by calling them "guerilleros" "mujahideen" or anything else doesn't mean they can act like killers without any response....
As well as just by calling them "terrorists" doesn't mean they don't have a basic right to fight for their freedom.

And after all it's just the killing of people for a socalled "higher reason" is what makes me sick.
We had that during the crusades and so often after that... too much of "Holy Wars" for my taste.

Rex

 

[REDWAVE]

Easier said than done

Overthrowing a dictator or oppressor is not that easy, Rex. The Kurds have risen up several times, only to be crushed. As for now, the Kurds in Iraq have a de facto independent state, only because of the protection against Iraqi warplanes provided them by the U.S. "no fly" zone. The Turkish government savagely suppresses the Kurds, banning their language, and imprisoning and torturing members of the PKK.

The UN is certainly not an authority that I value greatly. It has made some toothless declarations that I agree with in principle, but which it does nothing to enforce. Let's face it, the General Assembly is a debating club, nothing more. The power is in the Security Council, where the U.S. and several other powers all have veto power. The U.S. government does not totally control the UN, but does largely dominate it.

I don't advocate terrorist acts myself, Rex. To me they're counterproductive. I believe in slow, patient political education of the working class, ultimately culminating in the armed insurrection of the masses to overthrow capitalism.

I still have a lot of work to do.

 

[Rex1960]

Re: Easier said than done

Overthrowing a dictator or oppressor is not that easy, Rex.

total agreement here

The Kurds have risen up several times, only to be crushed. As for now, the Kurds in Iraq have a de facto independent state, only because of the protection against Iraqi warplanes provided them by the U.S. "no fly" zone.

Finally something you're willing to admit. But further progress depends on how the "iraqi kurds" are able to overcome their internal fights between KDP and PUK.

The Turkish government savagely suppresses the Kurds, banning their language, and imprisoning and torturing members of the PKK.

I still consider PKK being terrorists. They again and again attacked innocent civilians here in Germany and in the holiday resorts in South Turkey (mediterranean coast). Too much lethal effects for a "politcal" party. And since their leader Abdullah Ocallan was sentenced to death back in 1999, they won't stop.
And don't get me wrong here again. I don't think Turkey has the right to oppress the Kurds.
But when it comes to the point they should unite it occurs that those turkish kurds are fighting against the iraqi kurds and viceversa. Now which side are you going to support ? Which side represents the Kurds in general ? Wait and see what happens after the London summit of the iraqi kurds.

The UN is certainly not an authority that I value greatly. It has made some toothless declarations that I agree with in principle, but which it does nothing to enforce. Let's face it, the General Assembly is a debating club, nothing more. The power is in the Security Council, where the U.S. and several other powers all have veto power. The U.S. government does not totally control the UN, but does largely dominate it.

Another agreement here. But since the five permanent members of the security council have the same veto power, you can't blame it on the US only (the soviets and chinese played their NO role as bad as the US)

I don't advocate terrorist acts myself, Rex. To me they're counterproductive. I believe in slow, patient political education of the working class, ultimately culminating in the armed insurrection of the masses to overthrow capitalism.
I still have a lot of work to do.

Well said REDWAVE. But any kind of "armed insurrection" causes millions and millions of dead people. Or can you show me only one successful example in history ? The "communist" revolutions so far were anything else but peaceful.

Rex

 

[REDWAVE]

Bolshevik takeover of Leningrad

If the blow is strong and sudden enough, and well enough prepared, there will be very little bloodshed. The model is the Bolshevik takeover of St. Petersburg (shortly after renamed Leningrad) in 1917. The Kerensky regime was so unpopular and isolated, and the Bolsheviks had so much popular support in Leningrad (cradle of the revolution), that they simply sent out armed detachments of workers during the night to take over all the key points of the city. There was very little opposition, which was very easily and quickly overcome.

Once the overwhelming majority of the toiling and exploited masses have been won over to the side of revolution, the revolution itself will be virtually bloodless.

Of course, those few hard-core reactionaries who insist on getting in the way will be dealt with effectively . . .