The incest theme

[HandsInTheDark]

. What is is the fact you're a big fan of non consent here. ...

Please.

I doubt you've read my stuff through, and I'm not inviting you to. But I have two non consent stories, Toymaker and Becoming Marie. Toymaker is erotic scifi /horror; the main character uses an impossible mental ability to first seduce, but eventually compel, sex from women. He gets his in the end, and I don't think at any point you can read it as rape-positive. If you're unclear on that, read the sequel, Angelwatch, written from the perspective of one of his victims; it's an exploration of the damage done by rape and what redemption and healing might look like.

Becoming Marie is a tougher sell, but it's scifi and doesn't map to any real world experience. The main characters abduct womem, and they attempt to justify their actions, but the moral situation is deliberately untenable at best. If you're going to throw stones,, that's the story to aim for. The heroine has plenty to say about her plight, though.

My other stories are reluctance or submission, and some portray very aggressive seduction, but they all involve a Yes in the end.

Bottom line, I don't write rape as positive. I do, though, like taking concepts to the very edge. And I try to portray emotions and outcomes realistically, even if the settings are deliberately not of this world.

If incest writers wrote incest they way I write non-consent, the stories would end in suicides and clinical depression. But the few I've seen and slammed shut all tried to avoid any hint of negativity about the topic. So be careful with that pile of stones.

 

[MrHappy212]

I doubt you've read my stuff through, and I'm not inviting you to. But I have two non consent stories, Toymaker and Becoming Marie. Toymaker is erotic scifi /horror; the main character uses an impossible mental ability to first seduce, but eventually compel, sex from women. He gets his in the end, and I don't think at any point you can read it as rape-positive. If you're unclear on that, read the sequel, Angelwatch, written from the perspective of one of his victims; it's an exploration of the damage done by rape and what redemption and healing might look like.

Becoming Marie is a tougher sell, but it's scifi and doesn't map to any real world experience. The main characters abduct womem, and they attempt to justify their actions, but the moral situation is deliberately untenable at best. If you're going to throw stones,, that's the story to aim for. The heroine has plenty to say about her plight, though.

My other stories are reluctance or submission, and some portray very aggressive seduction, but they all involve a Yes in the end.

Bottom line, I don't write rape as positive. I do, though, like taking concepts to the very edge. And I try to portray emotions and outcomes realistically, even if the settings are deliberately not of this world.

If incest writers wrote incest they way I write non-consent, the stories would end in suicides and clinical depression. But the few I've seen and slammed shut all tried to avoid any hint of negativity about the topic. So be careful with that pile of stones.

The stories we write about incest aren't about rape, abuse or negativity but about real life situations that can and do happen. Just because you have a limited view of the world doesn't mean you know everything.

 

[MrHappy212]

Legally the parent is responsible, though. This is a legal issue.

Legal issue? so if you were 16 and your mom was ill, needed help paying bills and your father not in the picture...you're saying you wouldn't do everything you could to help? You would just continue acting like a "normal" spoiled teenager and go out drinking and partying with your friends? Or are you saying you would call the cops because your mom was too sick to pay rent and you too lazy to get a job?

Not every situation is as black and white like everyone tries to paint it.

 

[sr71plt]

Legal issue? so if you were 16 and your mom was ill, needed help paying bills and your father not in the picture...you're saying you wouldn't do everything you could to help? You would just continue acting like a "normal" spoiled teenager and go out drinking and partying with your friends? Or are you saying you would call the cops because your mom was too sick to pay rent and you too lazy to get a job?

Not every situation is as black and white like everyone tries to paint it.

I'm sorry, I don't any relevance to the issue whether a parent is legally responsible for and toward a minor child. (I also don't see any relevance to the subject of incest.)

 

[Carnal_Flower]

I see your point.

I don't even bother talking about incest erotica to ignorant dinosaurs. It's a complete waste of breath.

The stories we write about incest aren't about rape, abuse or negativity but about real life situations that can and do happen. Just because you have a limited view of the world doesn't mean you know everything.

 

[Hypoxia]

I write incest because many LIT readers apparently want it. I do not write it realistically because the reality is gross. I still try to make plausible, cohesive explanations for the encounters, or I swerve into satire -- but it's still all fantasy.

Why do readers want it? We may as well ask why folks who would never physically harm anyone read books about murder. IMHO it's all about vicarious thrills. They ain't gonna fuck mommy or daddy or sis or bro or unc or aunty -- but they like to watch.

 

[HandsInTheDark]

The stories we write about incest aren't about rape, abuse or negativity but about real life situations that can and do happen. Just because you have a limited view of the world doesn't mean you know everything.

A sentence containing "real life" and "incest" makes me want to call the police. (There are states in the US where the police couldn't do anything, but I'd still want to call.)

Everyone has a limited view of the world by definition. I'll keep mine, since I'm guessing I've talked to more incest victims than you have and have done my research on the topic, and feel convinced of my position - and deeply troubled by yours. Troubled enough, in fact, that it's Ignore time.

 

[MrHappy212]

A sentence containing "real life" and "incest" makes me want to call the police. (There are states in the US where the police couldn't do anything, but I'd still want to call.)

Everyone has a limited view of the world by definition. I'll keep mine, since I'm guessing I've talked to more incest victims than you have and have done my research on the topic, and feel convinced of my position - and deeply troubled by yours. Troubled enough, in fact, that it's Ignore time.

You keep saying Victim as if anyone in an incest relationship has to be a victim...

That's actually a pretty common response among society, at least for the fifty years or so it has been. Before that people simply ignored what they didn't like or understand. You want to believe that all relationships that don't fit your ideal view either don't exist or must be abusive, forced, or immoral in some way. I never once spoke of non consensual sex, or sex between a minor and adult, in my book those are crimes deserving of a far worse punishment than a few years in jail. My opinion is that society should not judge what goes on in the bedroom of two adults whether they be related or not.

The only reason that society believes incest between adults is wrong is because years ago it was believed this led to dangerous birth defects, which is only slightly higher than for two complete strangers. As technology improves and procedures such as IVF and embryo transplantation become more and more popular then so does incest.

What would you do if you learned your wife of six years was your biological half sister and you had a perfectly healthy child? Do you call for an annulment simply because your father was a sperm donor?

 

[Hypoxia]

You keep saying Victim as if anyone in an incest relationship has to be a victim...

IRL victims are real. IRL most incestuous relationships ARE victimization, ARE abusive imbalanced power trips, ARE non-con rapes of minors. What we write here is total fantasy. (I hope.)

The only reason that society believes incest between adults is wrong is because...

Is because it's so vanishingly rare, and a signal pointing at the near-ubiquitous abusive reality. But let's look at what "consenting adult incest erotica" means.

To start, what is incest? Fucking those within two degrees (parent/child, sibling, grand-parent/child, aunt/uncle), sure. Those beyond (first cousins et al), well maybe. Those related by marriage, not blood, well maybe. Foster parents? Godparents? Step-parents?

I'll generalize. If you consider them close family, it's incest. If not so close, well maybe. If beyond two degrees, well maybe. Hey, cousin-fucking ain't *really* incest.

The consenting adult issue snags on their earlier relationship: could one give orders to the other? If an authoritative close uncle gropes you on your 18th birthday and you feel you *must* fuck him, are you consenting willingly? Power imbalance is the key.

We must avoid reality when writing serious incest erotica. If the powerful compels the other to submit, it's more than creepy, it's tragedy, and not wank-provoking. (I hope.)

 

[MrHappy212]

People need to get used to the idea because already things are happening. I watched a show on tv a while back where 1 man donated sperm in college and now has 100 biological children all living within a 50 mile radius of each other. If two of those children ever have sex together it is legally incest . Should we as a society punish them for being born? Or do we only punish those who grow up in the same household, who love each other from the moment of birth and would never harm the other? How far are we willing to go to enforce a morality simply because some do not agree with it?


Food for thought, No where does it state that the relations in question must be within the same household. So if you had never met someone before, fell in love, had a child, then found out from dna testing that you were related, you had just committed a crime. Texas only enforces incest laws when a child is involved, adult relations are often ignored unless it is Rape. Which is why I urge people in a non con relationship to report it as a Rape and Not incest!

TEXAS PENAL CODE
TITLE 6. OFFENSES AGAINST THE FAMILY
CHAPTER 25. OFFENSES AGAINST THE FAMILY
Tex. Penal Code § 25.02 (2002)
§ 25.02. Prohibited Sexual Conduct
(a) An individual commits an offense if he engages in sexual
intercourse or deviate sexual intercourse with a person he
knows to be, without regard to legitimacy:
(1) his ancestor or descendant by blood or adoption;
(2) his stepchild or stepparent, while the marriage
creating that relationship exists;
(3) his parent's brother or sister of the whole or half
blood;
(4) his brother or sister of the whole or half blood or by
adoption; or
(5) the children of his brother or sister of the whole or
half blood or by adoption.
(b) For purposes of this section:
(1) "Deviate sexual intercourse" means any contact between
the genitals of one person and the mouth or anus of
another person with intent to arouse or gratify the
sexual desire of any person.
(2) "Sexual intercourse" means any penetration of the
female sex organ by the male sex organ.
(c) An offense under this section is a felony of the third
degree.

 

[Laurel]

Stories need conflict to be interesting. A lot of the most common fantasies and erotica scenarios--sex with your boss or subordinate, sex behind your partner's back, first-time sex, "ravishment" etc--are scenarios that have conflict built into them, which makes them very potent: They're sexually appealing AND they're naturally conflict-driven, two story goals for the price of one.

Incestuous pairings are probably the most naturally conflict-laden--the most bang for your buck.

That's my take on it as well, for the majority of readers. To establish conflict in a story built around sex, you have to show the characters as wanting to consummate the act but unable to do so because of internal/external factors. This usually means a lot of time dedicated to showing the reader these factors. ORRR you can make them related and the conflict is instantly clear. Another instant conflict is to make one or both of them married, or make it a gay/lesbian plot and have one of the characters be straight.

Incest and pseudoincest themes are a common plot device in mainstream fiction for the same reason - it's a way to add instant conflict into your story.

 

[Handley_Page]

From Wiki:-

Incest is illegal in Scotland, England, Wales, and Northern Ireland.
It is defined as sexual intercourse between a person and their parent (including adoptive parent), grandparent, child, grandchild, brother, sister, half-brother, half-sister, uncle, aunt, nephew or niece.
It is punishable with up to two years' imprisonment. For familial child sex offences (sex with a family member under 18 who lives in the same household), the relationship definitions include step-parents, step-siblings, first cousins, current and former foster parents and current and former foster siblings

 

[SusanJillParker]

That's my take on it as well, for the majority of readers. To establish conflict in a story built around sex, you have to show the characters as wanting to consummate the act but unable to do so because of internal/external factors. This usually means a lot of time dedicated to showing the reader these factors. ORRR you can make them related and the conflict is instantly clear. Another instant conflict is to make one or both of them married, or make it a gay/lesbian plot and have one of the characters be straight.

Incest and pseudoincest themes are a common plot device in mainstream fiction for the same reason - it's a way to add instant conflict into your story.

Unfortunately Laurel, as you well know, most writers who write here write pornography and most readers who read here want to read pornography.

To show conflict and tension, characters must be developed. Instead of writing sex from the start and sex to the end, writers need to not only describe their characters (not all at once but weave their descriptions in the story) and even name their characters. Too many porn stories don't even name their characters. Too many porn stories have talking heads having sex. If I can't see the character, if I can't feel the character, I can't read the story. I need to be there. I need to be engaged.

Unlike writing novels where a writer can throw everything in chapters, much easier than writing short, creative stories, a writer must eliminate much of the fat to tell the story. Yet, there's a fine line of how much to leave in and how much to discard. I concentrate more on character development than I do on sex and I pay a price for that decision. I concentrate more on erotica than I do on pornography and again I pay the price for my writing style with lower scores and bashing comments.

Unfortunately, too many readers want stroke stories. They don't want stories with unnecessary dialogue, imagery, and tension. They just want sex. To me, sex is boring. It's the people who are interesting. It's the people who make boring sex exciting.

I can't write stories with just sex, too boring. My best stories, especially incest stories, and especially mother and son stories, are when a mother seduces her son not with sex but with love. My best mother and son incest stories are when the characters finally come together and finally have sex after being fully developed while lusting over one another. My best incest stories, especially mother and son incest stories are when the reader can forget that he or she is reading a story and actually believe they are in the room watching and vicariously being part of the story.

Wow! When that happens, it's magic. To me, as a writer, creating characters that are real are addictive. I can't get enough of writing stories, whether incest, fetish, romance gay, lesbian, or cross dresser where the characters come alive, move off the page, stand behind my chair, and whisper their story in my ear as I write.

When characters that I created move me to tears of joy, as a creative writer of erotica, it just doesn't get any better than that.

 

[lovecraft68]

Unfortunately Laurel, as you well know, most writers who write here write pornography and most readers who read here want to read pornography.
Unfortunately, too many readers want stroke stories.

I agree. There is an audience here for stories with 'more', but I believe the strokers still rule.

When I first started here I equated length with stroke. I assumed all one page stories were wank fodder and anything 3 or more pages must have some depth to them.

Totally wrong, I have seen one page stories that had a good amount of substance and eight page stories that were nothing but mindless sex scene after sex scene.

As I said before as proof look at the top two authors on the fav author list. The titles of one author are pure porno(and by their own admission to draw the readers) the second author....

"Middle aged average/slightly loser type guy is suddenly beset upon by multiple hot young girls who seem to suffer from a disease that renders them mindless drooling idiots who are addicted to his cock."

That author has written that same premise countless times including three consecutive contest entries. And his numbers-which is what passes for success here-are indisputable proof stroke will rule here.

I also think that-and here I know I am generalizing, but its my opinion-is that male readers dominate here because in general woman like a little bit more to the story than a woman acting like a slut in heat while a guy lays there and tells her what to do.

For people who watch a lot of porn its 'bang brothers' style sites vs a site like "Xart or Orgasmsxxx" which are slower and more erotic.

Pandering to men who want their stories to be women acting like mindless whores (in other words, as it should be) is a recipe for success here.

Not that other authors who show it the other way-I.E. women who act like actual women and have a say in things and conflict and depth etc...-can't have success here, but its more difficult to find/build that audience.

one handed reading and misogyny go hand in hand and misogyny rules any porn site.

 

[lovecraft68]

I doubt you've read my stuff through, and I'm not inviting you to. But I have two non consent stories, Toymaker and Becoming Marie. Toymaker is erotic scifi /horror; the main character uses an impossible mental ability to first seduce, but eventually compel, sex from women. He gets his in the end, and I don't think at any point you can read it as rape-positive. If you're unclear on that, read the sequel, Angelwatch, written from the perspective of one of his victims; it's an exploration of the damage done by rape and what redemption and healing might look like.

Becoming Marie is a tougher sell, but it's scifi and doesn't map to any real world experience. The main characters abduct womem, and they attempt to justify their actions, but the moral situation is deliberately untenable at best. If you're going to throw stones,, that's the story to aim for. The heroine has plenty to say about her plight, though.

My other stories are reluctance or submission, and some portray very aggressive seduction, but they all involve a Yes in the end.

Bottom line, I don't write rape as positive. I do, though, like taking concepts to the very edge. And I try to portray emotions and outcomes realistically, even if the settings are deliberately not of this world.

If incest writers wrote incest they way I write non-consent, the stories would end in suicides and clinical depression. But the few I've seen and slammed shut all tried to avoid any hint of negativity about the topic. So be careful with that pile of stones.

The yes at the end is a cop out.

Having said that I'm not saying that so much to you, but what passes as the 'rule' here.

If a story shows a woman being forced/raped and shows that let's say 4k then in the last paragraph the woman suddenly says yes or we find out the brutal 'rape' was her husband and his friends as a birthday gift or it was a role play etc....

That's designed to say "Okay, her look, she wasn't really being raped, it was a game or see she really did want it."

Okay fine, as the author you knew that from the time you started typing, you knew no matter what you wrote 'all is well'

But let me ask you this....what was the reader jerking off to? Was it "Oh, this is so hot, bet its a role play," or "Oh, I bet she will really want it in the end"

No they were jerking off to a woman being forced/raped/assaulted and abused. Women in pain and being raped is what drives that category and its readership and again you prove heaven forbid that be admitted.

In a reverse example...let's say a young man is in his bed. His mom comes in takes her robe off jumps in bed with him and fucks his brains out.

Kid then...wakes up with a hard on, sticky sheets and his mom sleeping down the hall. Just a dirty dream.

Tell me was there no incest in that story?

Because that's what non con readers try to say. They try to say they blew a big load while reading about a woman being brutally gang raped, but then say well its not real.

Its not-in story form-but what got them off? What gets them aroused? Rape.

Although its not my kink I'm not crusading to say no one should have it, that it should not be allowed etc...

what I am saying is own the fucking kink. And they will never do it, never.

Know why? Because its a sick kink to get off to someone being hurt and they know it.

Incest in real life? Trust me if I found out the guy down the street was molesting his 12 year old daughter I would be first in in line to beat him like a dog. ON lit? Its 18 and over CONSENSUAL and pure fun fantasy, it is nothing like the abuse of real life incest.

The average rape story on any site like this? Portrays rape ina far more brutal fashion than real life. IT takes sex trafficking where women are abducted, gang raped and sold into a life of rape "sexy" and they show it just like it happens in real life, real sexy.

But no no no....that's not what we get off to the non con readers say....

Look in the mirror and own it and I say that in general to any fan of that material. Grow up and admit you have a sick kink.

 

[geronimo_appleby]

I agree. There is an audience here for stories with 'more', but I believe the strokers still rule.

When I first started here I equated length with stroke. I assumed all one page stories were wank fodder and anything 3 or more pages must have some depth to them.

Totally wrong, I have seen one page stories that had a good amount of substance and eight page stories that were nothing but mindless sex scene after sex scene.

As I said before as proof look at the top two authors on the fav author list. The titles of one author are pure porno(and by their own admission to draw the readers) the second author....

"Middle aged average/slightly loser type guy is suddenly beset upon by multiple hot young girls who seem to suffer from a disease that renders them mindless drooling idiots who are addicted to his cock."

That author has written that same premise countless times including three consecutive contest entries. And his numbers-which is what passes for success here-are indisputable proof stroke will rule here.

I also think that-and here I know I am generalizing, but its my opinion-is that male readers dominate here because in general woman like a little bit more to the story than a woman acting like a slut in heat while a guy lays there and tells her what to do.

For people who watch a lot of porn its 'bang brothers' style sites vs a site like "Xart or Orgasmsxxx" which are slower and more erotic.

Pandering to men who want their stories to be women acting like mindless whores (in other words, as it should be) is a recipe for success here.

Not that other authors who show it the other way-I.E. women who act like actual women and have a say in things and conflict and depth etc...-can't have success here, but its more difficult to find/build that audience.

one handed reading and misogyny go hand in hand and misogyny rules any porn site.

give me a nasty cuck-wimp hubby/hotwife combo any day. the readers here love that kinda shit. especially if it's inter-racial, too.

 

[LucidLucifer]

Whatever it is, it's inevitably moving into an underage discussion, which Laurel has been cracking down on here of late.

My bad, I didn't mean to turn it into something out of bounds.

Post edited.

 

[LucidLucifer]

First, if the son is 15-16 years old, there's no discussion to have about that on Lit. That's underage. In that situation, though, I agree with Freddie. No matter whether she fulfills the role or not, a step-mother of a minor has legally and in terms of responsibility stepped into the parent role and the relationship would be such that sexual activity would be incestuous.

If the guy is over 18, I don't see it as an incestuous arrangement. I do see it as time for him to get his ass out of his father's house, though, unless he's just coming home for college breaks. If he does that and sleeps with the stepmother, this is more a cuckold story than incest, I think.

Age of original post adjusted. Should have caught that one sooner.

Is it a cuckold story if the dad is not aware of what is going on?

Isn't it cuckolding when the husband is aware of and a willing participant in his wife having sex with other men?

 

[LucidLucifer]

The reactions the average person might have when told about different scenarios that are technically defined as incest might shed some light onto the issue itself.

"Did you hear that Johnny slept with his mom?"

"No, where the hell did you hear that?"

"Well it was his step-mom, but still."

"Oh, well, I guess if it's his step mom...

I would imaging sleeping with your bio mom vs a step-mom is going elicit a very different response from the average person on the street.

I'd say that would shed some light on the values and ethics of society, especially the potential gray areas.

 

[sr71plt]

Isn't it cuckolding when the husband is aware of and a willing participant in his wife having sex with other men?

Not in the classical (or dictionary) definition. Classically, everyone around knows about it but the husband and he's held in derision for not knowing.

 

[Hypoxia]

I would imaging sleeping with your bio mom vs a step-mom is going elicit a very different response from the average person on the street.

On some streets (and dirt roads) in the rural redneck / trailer trash / meth lab county just south of me, you would likely get a shrug and a "So?" Especially if they know the relationship is brief, that the step-mom is merely the dad's latest wife and never played a mothering role in the son's life. Especially if she is young -- a target of opportunity, they may think. Just because she married the dad don't make her the mom, y'know. Another shrug.

 

[LucidLucifer]

On some streets (and dirt roads) in the rural redneck / trailer trash / meth lab county just south of me, you would likely get a shrug and a "So?" Especially if they know the relationship is brief, that the step-mom is merely the dad's latest wife and never played a mothering role in the son's life. Especially if she is young -- a target of opportunity, they may think. Just because she married the dad don't make her the mom, y'know. Another shrug.

I don't think that scenario even needs an explanation.

I'm talking about places where incest is rare or completely non-existent.

 

[Hypoxia]

I'm talking about places where incest is rare or completely non-existent.

And where might such places be?

 

[LucidLucifer]

And where might such places be?

West coast? I dunno, just saying there are areas where it's more prevalent than others. I don't think there's as much incest going on in say Seattle than there is in some rural backwoods in Georgia.

 

[lovecraft68]

Something I don't know that's been mentioned here is 'reality' and how the topic itself stretches it to begin with, but where are the limits and do people even want them?

I've often thought that if you take away categories that are not reality based-sci fi. horror, non humn-then incest is the most unrealistic category by nature and the hardest to find a realistic scenario and conflict that the reader could think,. "This could happen"

I've always enjoyed that challenge, but I feel no matter how hard any author works at it, there is still going to be the moment of 'porn absurdity' because in reality, most of this would never happen.

For example the 18+ rule makes them unrealistic right off the bat. Now don't get me wrong, I am fine with the rule because as discussed previously it takes it from being the abuse if power situations it is in real life with younger children and makes it between consensual adults.

But let's face it, if a brother/sister are 19/18 and have not fooled around...its not going to happen at 18. cases of consensual sexual activity between sibs(and there is far more than people would think) happens at a young age of curiosity, the hormones are starting up, they have interest in the opposite sex, but no experience and here is a person of that sex you are already very close to, love, trust, etc....

I know several people who have stories of mutual masturbation and touching between them and their siblings, but younger than what the rule is here.

By 18 most have had boyfriends/girlfriends had sex....so by then it wouldn't really happen.

So there is your stretch right there for sibs. Parent/child? Be it mom or dad even as I write some of those stories I think...this would not happen. End of the day a parent knows better and even if the kid is over 18 you have to be seriously twisted as a parent to do that to your kid.

But again, that's reality, not the stories here.

So I find it a challenging category to write in because my style is the "conflicted" part of the category. Other side is the totally absurd, 'just doing it' for no reason.

And the relity stretches depending on your taste. I find it hard enough to convince a reader mom and son would do this, but then I see stories where its mom/son, then mom brings sis in, then dad gets in....

Those stories drive me crazy because it is impossible (unless you are using hypnosis, possession type devices) to believe an entire family would fuck on a dime, but again that's the 'absurd' end of the category.

Funny how even in the categories we write, we all have our limits of "Yes, I could see that' and "Oh, come on."

Incest, to me, has the biggest differences in that because its hard to believe to start with.