The hydrogen economy, how do we get there?

[Ishmael]

Hydrogen is a prefered fuel for mobil transportation. It's 33% more efficient in the ICE than gasoline. But the problems of getting there are legion.

What are the problems? What are the possible solutions?

Ishmael

 

[rosco rathbone]

Heard on the radio this day an ad urging oil-furnace people to switch to a new bio fuel, thought "the future has arrived." The stuff is probably made from crops grown with fertiliser made from fossil fuels, of course.

 

[Peregrinator]

Subsidize the fuck out of research and production. Use money gained by removing all subsidies and tax breaks from petro fuel production, and charge the true cost of land used for drilling, exploration, etc. Do not prejudice against energy companies who do both; let them pay for petro stuff, and give them huge breaks for hydrogen development and production. Let their accountants figure out how to balance it to make it profitable.

 

[Ishmael]

Subsidize the fuck out of research and production. Use money gained by removing all subsidies and tax breaks from petro fuel production, and charge the true cost of land used for drilling, exploration, etc. Do not prejudice against energy companies who do both; let them pay for petro stuff, and give them huge breaks for hydrogen development and production. Let their accountants figure out how to balance it to make it profitable.

Research what Perg? (And there are NO subsidies or tax breaks for foriegn produced oil. Isn't that part of the problem?)

Ishmael

 

[Peregrinator]

Research what Perg? (And there are NO subsidies or tax breaks for foriegn produced oil. Isn't that part of the problem?)

Ishmael

Research how to make production, storage, transport, point of sale, etc less expensive. It can't be that far off; there were taxis in Lowell, MA when I lived there that ran on H2. Maybe all we really need is an education program and better availability of H2-powered cars, so people will buy them and force the issue.

Well, then we have a little less to work with, I guess.

 

[Ishmael]

Research how to make production, storage, transport, point of sale, etc less expensive. It can't be that far off; there were taxis in Lowell, MA when I lived there that ran on H2. Maybe all we really need is an education program and better availability of H2-powered cars, so people will buy them and force the issue.

Well, then we have a little less to work with, I guess.

Let's start with production. Just that 'one' thing.

Hydrogen does not occur in the atmosphere in quantities that makes it readily extracted and refined for use as other gasses are. The only effective method for hydrogen extraction is electrolysis from water.

This means that Hydrogen is an energy transfer source. It takes more energy to generate useable hydrogen than the energy you get from the hydrogen. (In a perfect system you'd get as much out as you put in, but there are always innefficiencies.) Obviously using fossil fuels to generate hydrogen is not too cool. You're just trading one CO2 source for another. That leaves nuclear, solar, wind, or hydro. We aren't going to build more dams and wind isn't going to cut the mustard, so we're left with nuclear and solar.

This is all well known technology and you can throw billions of dollars at it and it won't change a thing. Oceanic methane hydrates have been suggested as an economical source, and they are. It's just that the by-product of that reduction is CO2. So we have cheap hydrogen, but the same old problem.

So, before we ever begin to address all the other issues you've raised we have to get past this little production problem.

Ishmael

 

[Ishmael]

Heard on the radio this day an ad urging oil-furnace people to switch to a new bio fuel, thought "the future has arrived." The stuff is probably made from crops grown with fertiliser made from fossil fuels, of course.

And how is all this bio-fuel reducing CO2 emissions? *chuckle*

Expensive 'feel good' shit.

Ishmael

 

[Peregrinator]

Let's start with production. Just that 'one' thing.

Hydrogen does not occur in the atmosphere in quantities that makes it readily extracted and refined for use as other gasses are. The only effective method for hydrogen extraction is electrolysis from water.

This means that Hydrogen is an energy transfer source. It takes more energy to generate useable hydrogen than the energy you get from the hydrogen. (In a perfect system you'd get as much out as you put in, but there are always innefficiencies.) Obviously using fossil fuels to generate hydrogen is not too cool. You're just trading one CO2 source for another. That leaves nuclear, solar, wind, or hydro. We aren't going to build more dams and wind isn't going to cut the mustard, so we're left with nuclear and solar.

This is all well known technology and you can throw billions of dollars at it and it won't change a thing. Oceanic methane hydrates have been suggested as an economical source, and they are. It's just that the by-product of that reduction is CO2. So we have cheap hydrogen, but the same old problem.

So, before we ever begin to address all the other issues you've raised we have to get past this little production problem.

Ishmael

Exactly. Hence my first post. You owe me a commission for giving you such an easy straight line.

 

[Ishmael]

Exactly. Hence my first post. You owe me a commission for giving you such an easy straight line.

Then why your demand to throw money at a well known problem? If the production problem isn't solved then all the others are moot.

I have the answer to that one, do you?

Ishmael

 

[Peregrinator]

Then why your demand to throw money at a well known problem? If the production problem isn't solved then all the others are moot.

I have the answer to that one, do you?

Ishmael

I just listed a few things off the top of my head that I thought would get us closer to what you were asking.

Nope. Tell me.

 

[RoryN]

Hydrogen fuel cells are bullshit. The first clue is the fact that prominent Republicans are pushing for them.

Go electric. That way you only have bad emissions at the factory - not at the car.

 

[patient1]

Research what Perg? (And there are NO subsidies or tax breaks for foriegn produced oil. Isn't that part of the problem?)

Ishmael

Do carrier task forces in the Middle East count as a subsidy?

Then again, it's borrowed money, not a fully paid current expense...

And it is taxed, so who the hell knows what the net cost is... No shell game/ponzi scheme like the Federal budget.

END tangential rant.

 

[phrodeau]

What Ishmael has to say:

"Let's have a discussion on how to make something better."

"We can't make it better, so there's no point even trying."

 

[RoryN]

What Ishmael has to say:

"Let's have a discussion on how to make something better."

"We can't make it better, so there's no point even trying."

Moreover, he thinks that, though he uses this tactic constantly, no one's caught on.

 

[MechaBlade]

What perg said. Put money in finding a more efficient way of storing energy as hydrogen. I've heard biodiesel is cleaner, we can move towards that. Nuclear isn't bad, use that more, I don't see why we can't build more dams, solar panels on everything (like they were advertisements).

Plus, I don't see why we can't look into new ways of energy generation.

Hydrogen fuel cells are bullshit. The first clue is the fact that prominent Republicans are pushing for them.

Go electric. That way you only have bad emissions at the factory - not at the car.

Well, hydrogen has cleaner output than gas, so I understand.

What Ishmael has to say:

"Let's have a discussion on how to make something better."

"We can't make it better, so there's no point even trying."

I noticed that.

 

[Peregrinator]

What perg said. Put money in finding a more efficient way of storing energy as hydrogen. I've heard biodiesel is cleaner, we can move towards that. Nuclear isn't bad, use that more, I don't see why we can't build more dams, solar panels on everything (like they were advertisements).

Plus, I don't see why we can't look into new ways of energy generation.



Well, hydrogen has cleaner output than gas, so I understand.


I noticed that.

Other than the dams, which always seem to cause more trouble than they're worth, I agree. Diversify as much as we can, and squeeze every last erg out of all the alternatives to minimize petro use. Fuck, I just heard an interview with a scientist who's designed a way of making solar panels out of plastic that can be sprayed onto surfaces and used for stuff like roofing. Can you imagine how much juice we could generate if every roof in the country had solar panels on it instead of shingles? Here's a story about it: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/01/0114_050114_solarplastic.html

 

[Ulaven_Demorte]

Hydrogen fuel cells are bullshit. The first clue is the fact that prominent Republicans are pushing for them.

Go electric. That way you only have bad emissions at the factory - not at the car.

Agreed, I'm watching the EV market closely.

For example: http://www.zapworld.com/ZAPWorld.aspx?id=386
Then there's always the Tesla: http://www.teslamotors.com/

 

[Ulaven_Demorte]

Other than the dams, which always seem to cause more trouble than they're worth, I agree. Diversify as much as we can, and squeeze every last erg out of all the alternatives to minimize petro use. Fuck, I just heard an interview with a scientist who's designed a way of making solar panels out of plastic that can be sprayed onto surfaces and used for stuff like roofing. Can you imagine how much juice we could generate if every roof in the country had solar panels on it instead of shingles? Here's a story about it: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/01/0114_050114_solarplastic.html

Nice find!

Now imagine an electric vehicle painted with solar cells for constant recharging. Granted it likely wouldn't keep the batteries charged while driving, but they would extend range and provide free charging while parked.

 

[Peregrinator]

Nice find!

Now imagine an electric vehicle painted with solar cells for constant recharging.

Yeah, I was late to class because of that interview...sat in the car to listen to it. There are all sorts of applications, and one of the really cool things is that this particular spray-on can also absorb infrared--heat--radiation. You could spray it on the inside of the engine compartment and capture some of that wasted energy. Near the brakes somewhere, maybe. On the inside of the oven. The possibilities go on and on for reducing entropy. Once you start thinking about it as an add-on to existing tech, it's pretty cool.

 

[Ishmael]

Do carrier task forces in the Middle East count as a subsidy?

Then again, it's borrowed money, not a fully paid current expense...

And it is taxed, so who the hell knows what the net cost is... No shell game/ponzi scheme like the Federal budget.

END tangential rant.

Or Social Security?

Ishmael

 

[MechaBlade]

Other than the dams, which always seem to cause more trouble than they're worth, I agree. Diversify as much as we can, and squeeze every last erg out of all the alternatives to minimize petro use. Fuck, I just heard an interview with a scientist who's designed a way of making solar panels out of plastic that can be sprayed onto surfaces and used for stuff like roofing. Can you imagine how much juice we could generate if every roof in the country had solar panels on it instead of shingles? Here's a story about it: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/01/0114_050114_solarplastic.html

cool beans.

Agreed, I'm watching the EV market closely.

For example: http://www.zapworld.com/ZAPWorld.aspx?id=386
Then there's always the Tesla: http://www.teslamotors.com/

Nice, Tesla! Oooh, $92K.

 

[Ulaven_Demorte]

cool beans.


Nice, Tesla! Oooh, $92K.

I just saw another interview with one of the owners of Tesla Inc. They're working on a more affordable version, a sedan or minivan perhaps in the $20,000 range for the future.

The Sports car was really a proof of concept vehicle. Electric vehicles don't have to be ugly, slow, or have a very short range. They proved that for sure!

 

[Ishmael]

Fools abound.

Find the flaws in your own fantasies.

Ishmael

 

[Ulaven_Demorte]

Fools abound.

Find the flaws in your own fantasies.

Ishmael

Yes Ishmael, everyone is a fool except you..

Enlighten us oh ancient and not so wise one.
Exactly what are the fantasies?

 

[Ishmael]

Yes Ishmael, everyone is a fool except you..

Enlighten us oh ancient and not so wise one.
Exactly what are the fantasies?

You contribute nothing. That makes you nothing.

Ishmael