The fight for sexual liberty; gay vs. straight leather communities

[Etoile]

For more than a year I have been interpreting (sign language) for gay leather events. They are awesome. Pretty much everybody is so wonderful and friendly...it really feels like a family.

I've noticed that there isn't an equivalent straight leather family. The word "leather" is misleading - it actually encompasses a lot more than the fabric fetish; it includes kink and BDSM and all such flavors of deviance. So there definitely are straight people out there into leather, but they aren't quite set up the same way the gay leather community is. The gay community has contests, clubs, classes, events, all kinds of stuff. The straight community has many of the same things, with the notable exception of the contests. (The gay leather contest environment is quite structured, just like beauty pageants, with local, regional, national, and international events that each have various rounds of competition, etc., and then the winner becomes a titleholder and travels the country.)

This weekend I am interpreting at the 10th annual Leather Leadership Conference in New York City. The keynote speaker for tonight's opening ceremony was Mary Frances Berry, an internationally-noted human rights leader. She spoke about about sexual liberty and freedom of sexual expression, and she emphasized that it was necessary to reach out to other groups that are in the struggle for freedom - racial equality, gender equality, sexual equality - all groups are in the fight for human rights together.

It got me wondering - why don't the gay and straight leather/kink communities interact more? There are straight groups (Black Rose of DC & TES of NYC are just two) and there are gay groups (there are motorcycle clubs, leather & levi clubs, etc all over the world). Why don't they mix? We share a lot of the same issues - seeking the right to practice consensual sexual activities of a kinky nature. So why the gap? Are we really so different?

 

[Succulent-one]

The Portland Leather Alliance recently put on Kink Fest. There were workshops and speakers from the stright, lesbian, and gay communities. There is also a monthly meeting called the Rose City Discussion Club. All sexual orientations are welcome. Everyone seems to get along quite well.

 

[Netzach]

For more than a year I have been interpreting (sign language) for gay leather events. They are awesome. Pretty much everybody is so wonderful and friendly...it really feels like a family.

I've noticed that there isn't an equivalent straight leather family. The word "leather" is misleading - it actually encompasses a lot more than the fabric fetish; it includes kink and BDSM and all such flavors of deviance. So there definitely are straight people out there into leather, but they aren't quite set up the same way the gay leather community is. The gay community has contests, clubs, classes, events, all kinds of stuff. The straight community has many of the same things, with the notable exception of the contests. (The gay leather contest environment is quite structured, just like beauty pageants, with local, regional, national, and international events that each have various rounds of competition, etc., and then the winner becomes a titleholder and travels the country.)

This weekend I am interpreting at the 10th annual Leather Leadership Conference in New York City. The keynote speaker for tonight's opening ceremony was Mary Frances Berry, an internationally-noted human rights leader. She spoke about about sexual liberty and freedom of sexual expression, and she emphasized that it was necessary to reach out to other groups that are in the struggle for freedom - racial equality, gender equality, sexual equality - all groups are in the fight for human rights together.

It got me wondering - why don't the gay and straight leather/kink communities interact more? There are straight groups (Black Rose of DC & TES of NYC are just two) and there are gay groups (there are motorcycle clubs, leather & levi clubs, etc all over the world). Why don't they mix? We share a lot of the same issues - seeking the right to practice consensual sexual activities of a kinky nature. So why the gap? Are we really so different?

A lot of what I feel to be the issue was covered by slave marsha in her LLC endnote speech better than I could have covered it.

1. majority-straight-pansexual leather events are set up with rules and playstations that are not geared towards the way GLBT-majority leatherpeople play. Think about the kinds of play you see in a GLBT Leather environment -- piercing, cutting, cigar play, fisting, bootblacking and bootpigging, FUCKING, pissplay, sucking -- and then compare this list to the way large hotel convention events have to be run. There's a gap. It's not to say no straight people enjoy the above and no gay people enjoy rope bondage or singletails, but in a general sense, this is the breakdown.

2. by not seeing a GLBT leather demographic represented at straight/pan events, GLBT players will sit these events out, or go in a gesture of community building but not necessarily feel comfortable playing in this environment.

3. There's no reason that GLBT players should or must find an atmosphere with straight players erotically charged or vice versa.

4. homophobia still exists in the pansexual majority-straight leather community, though vehemently denied all the time. A lot of straight players refuse to see their lack of inclusivity or creation of relevance to GLBT players and leather community members and still have not moved past "but why won't they come to our meetings." A lot of straight players are clueless about GLBT history and contributions to the formation of the leather community. A lot of straight players in fact politically support policies and viewpoints that are directly detrimental to the GLBT population in the country at the same time they want their own sexual freedoms protected.

 

[Evil_Geoff]

- why don't the gay and straight leather/kink communities interact more? ... Why don't they mix? ... Are we really so different?

Good questions, all... Are we really so different? In a word, yes. As Netzach pointed out, at gay leather events you will find a lot more directly sexual activity, fucking, sucking, fisting, etc... way, Way WAY more out than at straight events. Most straight events prohibit penetration, period. Those that do allow it require latex, plastic, or nitrile barriers and usually limit it to one or two rooms that have abso-freaking-lutely no way for nilla's to accidentally run into it and hard for those looking for it to find.

Straight BDSM events restrict sexual activity to make it emphatically clear that we are not "swingers", that what we are doing isn't an "orgy", God only knows what other reasons we give ourselves but it boils down to "no public sex at straight/"pan" BDSM events.

When I got started in this lifestyle, my first exposures to real-time BDSM included gay, lesbian and bi folk. My first exposure to a public play space was The Sanctuary of a Dark Angel in Atlanta, run by a gay leather Family... When I came out in this lifestyle, the first people I came out to were my openly gay, bi and other queer folk friends. I figured they would most easily understand and accept. I was right... *smiles* My ex made the mistake of accusing me of being homophobic in front of them once... they damn near laughed her out of the room. When T3WD started, a good 1/3 (pushing closer to 1/2) of our support came from the local gay leather/levi group. We had gay and bi Board members from the start.

But as more and more hets joined, the gay population dwindled. Rapidly. A few stayed involved but most disappeared. I don't have a single reason why, but some of them expressed dismay that we were so open, that anyone could find the group and join. We were stripping away the veil of secrecy and exclusivity that the gay leather community here was used too. Others told me that they were uncomfortable with all the naked and partial naked het women (the lesbians in the group didn't bother them.. go figure). Some of the hets in the group weren't at all comfy with seeing gay Masters and boys holding hands, kissing, or giving other PDA's... The gays were uncomfy with het PDA's...

At that point I threw my hands in the air and said "Fuck it! I can't make everyone happy, I can't MAKE anyone attend who doesn't want to! I'll make it as inclusive as I can but it's MY damn group and it's running on MY vision, and if my vision is too open, too het, too visible on the radar for their taste, that's too damn bad."

I don't know how to get the gay leather community more active with us. We bring in openly gay and lesbian presenters, we ask for input but no one responds... I sure miss the days when half of the Levi/Leather Brigade showed up at our meetings. I miss the experience they brought, the traditions, the history. But I wasn't creating an adjunct to their group, I was bringing my own vision to life. Unfortunately their vision and mine did not mesh as well as I had hoped. And I don't know how to change that and neither do the gay leathermen that ARE part of the group.

Good questions, Etoile, I wish I had good answers to share. I just know that it is frustrating to me to want more diversity in our membership and to get so little of it.

 

[Netzach]

Good questions, all... Are we really so different? In a word, yes. As Netzach pointed out, at gay leather events you will find a lot more directly sexual activity, fucking, sucking, fisting, etc... way, Way WAY more out than at straight events. Most straight events prohibit penetration, period. Those that do allow it require latex, plastic, or nitrile barriers and usually limit it to one or two rooms that have abso-freaking-lutely no way for nilla's to accidentally run into it and hard for those looking for it to find.

Straight BDSM events restrict sexual activity to make it emphatically clear that we are not "swingers", that what we are doing isn't an "orgy", God only knows what other reasons we give ourselves but it boils down to "no public sex at straight/"pan" BDSM events.

When I got started in this lifestyle, my first exposures to real-time BDSM included gay, lesbian and bi folk. My first exposure to a public play space was The Sanctuary of a Dark Angel in Atlanta, run by a gay leather Family... When I came out in this lifestyle, the first people I came out to were my openly gay, bi and other queer folk friends. I figured they would most easily understand and accept. I was right... *smiles* My ex made the mistake of accusing me of being homophobic in front of them once... they damn near laughed her out of the room. When T3WD started, a good 1/3 (pushing closer to 1/2) of our support came from the local gay leather/levi group. We had gay and bi Board members from the start.

But as more and more hets joined, the gay population dwindled. Rapidly. A few stayed involved but most disappeared. I don't have a single reason why, but some of them expressed dismay that we were so open, that anyone could find the group and join. We were stripping away the veil of secrecy and exclusivity that the gay leather community here was used too. Others told me that they were uncomfortable with all the naked and partial naked het women (the lesbians in the group didn't bother them.. go figure). Some of the hets in the group weren't at all comfy with seeing gay Masters and boys holding hands, kissing, or giving other PDA's... The gays were uncomfy with het PDA's...

At that point I threw my hands in the air and said "Fuck it! I can't make everyone happy, I can't MAKE anyone attend who doesn't want to! I'll make it as inclusive as I can but it's MY damn group and it's running on MY vision, and if my vision is too open, too het, too visible on the radar for their taste, that's too damn bad."

I don't know how to get the gay leather community more active with us. We bring in openly gay and lesbian presenters, we ask for input but no one responds... I sure miss the days when half of the Levi/Leather Brigade showed up at our meetings. I miss the experience they brought, the traditions, the history. But I wasn't creating an adjunct to their group, I was bringing my own vision to life. Unfortunately their vision and mine did not mesh as well as I had hoped. And I don't know how to change that and neither do the gay leathermen that ARE part of the group.

Good questions, Etoile, I wish I had good answers to share. I just know that it is frustrating to me to want more diversity in our membership and to get so little of it.

Geoff, first off no personal attack here, I can't imagine having the intestinal fortitude to be a "community leader" and I know where you stand on these things from your prior posts.

But can you see how, if I'm a queer member of your organization this might not feel so inclusive?

"Fuck it! I can't make everyone happy, I can't MAKE anyone attend who doesn't want to! I'll make it as inclusive as I can but it's MY damn group and it's running on MY vision, and if my vision is too open, too het, too visible on the radar for their taste, that's too damn bad."

I totally understand the frustration, but would a more inclusive response maybe have garnered more positive vibes? I know that if I'm faced with a "tough shit this is not a democracy" situation I'll walk. I think that queer people need more than an invite to the meeting at times to feel included, I think it's important to listen to concerns. Maybe a men-only monthly party would make the people not so into hetero boobies feel a bit more important.

 

[Marquis]

John Warren mentioned this conflict in a demo he was giving to my local group once.

John Warren, by the way is the author of The Loving Dominant, and the funniest, perviest, nicest little troll of a man you will ever meet in your life.

In my local groups first major meeting of the year there were several gay couples that never showed up again. There was a panel discussion with questions and none of the straight people asked the gay guy on the panel any questions.

They gay people did ask the straight panel members questions however.

I felt like a hand was being extended and we should've made an effort to make them feel more comfortable.


Then again, I didn't ask the gay guy any questions. Particularly for the topic being discussed - relationships - I just didn't think I had anything to gain from hearing about how to manage a complex hierarchy of D/s based relationships.

In retrospect, I wouldn't mind hearing about it, if for nothing more than for the love of knowledge.

There are tons of gay people at the parties.

 

[Evil_Geoff]

I totally understand the frustration, but would a more inclusive response maybe have garnered more positive vibes?

Hi Netzach,

First off, that "fuck it!" was a private, personal emotional reaction, not one shared with the general public or with anyone in the group for that matter. I had included our local gay community from the very start of the group. I _listened_ to their input, we included gay leathermen on the Board from the very first. They helped write the by-laws that formed the group. Their concerns about protecting privacy and making sure people understood our need for discretion helped shape our policies about requiring an orientation meeting before being allowed to join the group, etc.

I know that if I'm faced with a "tough shit this is not a democracy" situation I'll walk. I think that queer people need more than an invite to the meeting at times to feel included, I think it's important to listen to concerns. Maybe a men-only monthly party would make the people not so into hetero boobies feel a bit more important.

I understand that reaction well. But no one was ever presented with a "my way or the highway" ultimatum. I frequently asked for suggestions, ideas, concerns.... T3WD is a democracy, officers get elected for a 1 year term. Two terms and out for the President. We elect a Member-At-Large for every 25 active members who's duties are to represent the concerns of our members to the Board, they are liasons for the members, a sort of Ombudsman if you will.

I would hope, however, that you would not expect _me_ to organize an event that would exclude my girl. We (the Board, which INCLUDED queer folk) encouraged the start up of Special Interest Groups within the organization, the Submissive's SIG has been pretty damn successful, having two incarnations now. The Dom SIG, not so much (trying to herd cats has been easier and more successful). Believe me, a GLBT SIG, a Gay SIG, a Women's SIG, a CD/Tranny/TV SIG were considered. They _were_ encouraged... "You want a bar night? Great! Figure out a time and date and bar, make it happen!" "You want a men's only play night? Great! Reserve a space and announce it to the group!" The sound of crickets chirping in the background was the only response we got from the people bitching about what wasn't going on for them.

I will only bend over so far to accomodate other people. I will encourage, I will support, I will guide, but I will only DO so much of the work others need to be doing. I learned, not all that long ago in the general scheme of things, that I had stop tying myself up in emotional knots trying to please everyone else and I had to stop working myself to death to fix problems other people were causing because they were not pulling their share of the load. I couldn't do enough to make the gays happy, and they wouldn't get off their asses and run with the their own sub-group within the organization. The reaction I got made it very clear to me that just like the overwhelming majority of human beings, they wanted the actual work done for them, not by them. *shrugs*

As far as I'm concerned, I did everything I could except turn T3WD into a gay men only leather group. The funny thing, at least to me, is that the gay men who have stuck around have all been very interested in community and education. The ones who left, who said they were interested in education, in being part of a more open and inclusive community, seemed to be more interested in bar hopping and socializing and kinky sex.

The sad thing is that the Levi/Leather Brigade folded a couple of years later. Some of their members are still in T3, still teaching, still sharing. But the organized and visible gay leather community here in Columbia has, for all intents and purposes, vanished. There may be an underground gay leather community, but I have no idea how to reach them if they are here.

Again, I wish I had an answer about how to fix the problem. I don't know. I've attended leather events, our group has supported gay leather group "runs". We've had leather title holders and others come and present to our group. I'm the "old man", the "Founder" etc... But I can only do so much. I feel like I've made the gestures, the overtures, made the opportunities available, but no one stepped up to the plate. At some point you HAVE to let go and say "fuggeddaboudit". They know we are here. Google "Columbia, SC Leather" We're on the first page. Search "Columbia, SC BDSM" and we're there. . . The interested ones will find us, it's not like we are the one's hiding.

YIK,
- Geoff

 

[catalina_francisco]

Great post Geoff, and some good points made. I have had similar experiences myself with organising groups, attempting to get groups of various and similar interest together, and just dealing with people in general. I made it a rule that for me I was never going to exclude one group or person, in the interests of appeasing another...like you, I wanted cohesion where everyone could come together and feel they had just as much right to be there as the next person, and that no-one was going to get special treatment to encourage them to participate. I don't believe you achieve inclusiveness through exclusion.

Unfortunately, though there were successes, overall when dealing with the human race, there are plenty who will complain and grumble about what needs to be done, but very few who are willing to put in any effort themselves, instead seeing it as the responsibility of someone else and then if it doesn't happen, claiming they have been excluded or not heard. As you say, you can't make all the people happy all the time, and while some will wander off grumbling, the ones willing to put in the effort to find their own place and happiness will respond positively and put there stength in alongside yours on equal terms. Sheesh, where would feminism and the gay movement have gotten if both groups had sat on their hands and waited for others to win their rights for them.

I think part of the problem also lies in people in general like their comfort zones. While gays and straights mix socially etc., there are time where they feel more comfortable with those they feel they relate to best and walk in the same or similar shoes of. Stepping out of that comfort zone to come together with others who may not conform exactly to their tastes requires compromise, understanding, tolerance, effort....all things many are not willing to do in our disposable and quick fix and gratification society.

Catalina

 

[Evil_Geoff]

... I think part of the problem also lies in people in general like their comfort zones. While gays and straights mix socially etc., there are time where they feel more comfortable with those they feel they relate to best and walk in the same or similar shoes of. Stepping out of that comfort zone to come together with others who may not conform exactly to their tastes requires compromise, understanding, tolerance, effort....all things many are not willing to do in our disposable and quick fix and gratification society.

Catalina

Francisco is a lucky man catalina! I think I just fell in love! *LOL*

Exactly what happened I think, with the gays participating. When the group was small, they were almost half the active members. Let's face it, when 8 or 10 out of 20 people are there, that's a sizable chunk of the conversation. But when those 8 or 10 are only part of 50... suddenly that sub-group isn't so much a part, perhaps it's not so cozy anymore. T3 grew and grew FAST in the het BDSM community, but there was little or no growth in the gay membership and many may have simply felt overwhelmed and uncomfortable in the situation. The _active_ membership has stayed around 50 - 60 people the last few years but the mail list... OMG... we have 300+ regularly, we've had over 350.

Wish I knew an answer to making T3 more comfortable for our gay leather brothers. It seems to me to be a "Catch 22"... to get more gays to participate we need to make them feel more comfortable but to make them feel more comfortable we have to get more gays to participate... *sighs*

 

[Netzach]

Where events are matters a lot.

When more events and meetings moved to gay bars or venues with Queer membership and in diverse urban neighborhoods, as opposed to sports bars and suburban chain restaurants in my city, GLBT participation in the larger organizations went up and brought GLBT participants out into the burbs and sports bars subsequently.

Most munches I know of take place in suburban chains outside of predominantly gay neighborhoods.

Look at your events with a different perspective. If you can't fathom getting in drag and suviving being at the bar you picked, do you think you are going to get CD's to your event?

 

[alice_underneath]

This weekend I am interpreting at the 10th annual Leather Leadership Conference in New York City. The keynote speaker for tonight's opening ceremony was Mary Frances Berry, an internationally-noted human rights leader.

This Mary Frances Berry?

http://www.maryfrancesberry.com/

If so, I'm jealous! I would love to hear her speak. I don't always agree with everything she says, but she's one gutsy woman - with consistent principles that I admire very much.

She spoke about about sexual liberty and freedom of sexual expression, and she emphasized that it was necessary to reach out to other groups that are in the struggle for freedom - racial equality, gender equality, sexual equality - all groups are in the fight for human rights together.

Etoile, if you are aware of an online transcript of her speech, would you please provide the link? (I tried, but was unable to find one.)

As I understand your summary of her suggestion, it makes sense to me from about 20,000 feet in the air. Closer to the ground, however, it gets a bit tricky.

On the one hand, there are civil rights activists who share the view of the late Coretta Scott King, who said:

"Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood. This sets the stage for further repression and violence that spread all too easily to victimize the next minority group."

and

"For many years now, I have been an outspoken supporter of civil and human rights for gay and lesbian people. Gays and lesbians stood up for civil rights in Montgomery, Selma, in Albany, Ga. and St. Augustine, Fla., and many other campaigns of the Civil Rights Movement. Many of these courageous men and women were fighting for my freedom at a time when they could find few voices for their own, and I salute their contributions."

On the other hand, some of the most outspoken opponents of gay marriage are the same African American religious leaders who are vociferous supporters of racial equality.

Similar comments could be made in reference to those actively fighting for gender equality. Some may embrace the ideal of sexual freedom, regardless of the choice made, but some will hold very strong opinions of the type quoted in this post:

https://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=16692681&postcount=101

Of course, Ms. Berry is fully aware of this dichotomy - which is why I am interested in reading the text of her address.

It got me wondering - why don't the gay and straight leather/kink communities interact more? There are straight groups (Black Rose of DC & TES of NYC are just two) and there are gay groups (there are motorcycle clubs, leather & levi clubs, etc all over the world). Why don't they mix? We share a lot of the same issues - seeking the right to practice consensual sexual activities of a kinky nature. So why the gap? Are we really so different?

In the context of a discussion of sexual liberty, I would say that there are very significant differences between the gay and straight groups.

There are tangible legal differences, most notably surrounding the issue of marriage (and the accompanying implications relating to children, property rights, hospital visitation, etc.).

There are also intangible differences in the discrimination faced by gay vs. straight people of kink. If Mr. and Mrs. Sadist buy a home in my neighborhood, as long as they keep their consensual sexual behavior private, maintain a well-manicured front lawn, and bring their garbage cans in promptly at the end of trash day, no one is going to raise an eyebrow at their presence on the block.

But if Mr. and Mr. Sadist buy a home in my neighborhood, they will immediately face snubs and discrimination from some members of the community, in ways that range from the petty to the very significant.

I realize that I am not telling you anything you don't already know, Etoile, but I wonder if focusing on these differences might provide one answer to your question..... Why don't the gay and straight leather/kink communities interact more?....... particularly if you are asking this question in the context of the fight for sexual liberty.

Alice

 

[Etoile]

Yep, that's exactly the right one. She did actually refer to Coretta King a few times, it seems the two were friends. Unfortunately I doubt her speech would be posted online anywhere, but perhaps you can write to her care of the University of Pennsylvania and ask if she has notes she can send you?