The Female Gaze

[Kelliezgirl]

Some thoughts on the difference between male and female perspectives. We often see the phenomenon explained as women being "less visual" but this provides an interesting alternative explanation.

https://www.maryharrington.co.uk/p/the-female-gaze

This week in silly internet discourse, the singer Olly Murs got fit, and posted Before and After shots. Then the psychologist William Costello posted the shots, and polled men and women on which looked better. More men chose the After shot, but vastly more women chose the Before. Cue pandemonium, including a lot of men saying the women who claim to prefer “Before” are lying.

 

[onehitwanda]

I don't think I'm less visual, I'm just allergic to caricatures. After is a caricature dressed in a budgie smuggler. Before is honest, and true to life, and infinitely more attractive as a whole.

That said, the actual piece is very... confused. I don't buy the argument that women prefer before to after because the picture is gender-incongruent.

 

[SimonDoom]

The results don't surprise me. It's interesting, though, that so many men would have a difficult time accepting the results, because the results, one would think, would be welcome to most men, i.e., women do NOT prefer men who look like they spend all their time working out in the gym and trying to look good.

 

[bumpercars]

This same phenomenon has been visible for a while: Hugh Jackman on the cover of men's magazines is jacked all to hell; Hugh Jackman on the cover of women's magazines is smiling and wearing a sweater.

I think the phenomenon is interesting, although I agree with onehitwanda that the article is pretty suspect.

 

[Erozetta]

I saw that before.

Personally, I would prefer the before image.

I like laying my head on a soft stomach to read. He looks more approachable to me. I could see being his friend pretty easily.

My husband has the "after" build, though. Unfortunately for me, I got to know him before I ever saw what he looked like, and by that point, I was completely enamored.

 

[SimonDoom]

IMH (and mostly non-scientific, and at-best marginally worthwhile)O, the error people make in these discussions--and this article commits this error--is the error of essentialism. It's erroneous essentialism to say "all men and women are fundamentally the same." And it's also erroneous essentialism to say "men and women are fundamentally different." Men and women are two populations of widely varying individuals whose behaviors and attitudes are all over the map, but there probably are very significant mean differences between the populations. So it's fine and useful to make some generalizations, but always keeping in mind that the generalizations are just generalizations and don't take into account that there's bound to be significant overlap even while the means are different.

The results of this study do not at all surprise me as observations about mean differences in the attitudes of the two populations.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

As others have noticed, this is not a valid comparison. The after image is indeed caricatural. If the guy just lost some weight and did some moderate muscle exercises, and then made a reasonable picture, I believe 90% of both men and women would have voted After. But this is just silly.

 

[StillStunned]

I'm working very hard on my "before" body to satisfy the female gaze.

 

[SimonDoom]

As others have noticed, this is not a valid comparison. The after image is indeed caricatural. If the guy just lost some weight and did some moderate muscle exercises, and then made a reasonable picture, I believe 90% of both men and women would have voted After. But this is just silly.

But what's interesting and somewhat surprising, assuming the results are statistically valid, is that so many men DO think the after picture is better and don't believe that women actually prefer the first photo. It is rather extreme but men prefer it and assume that women would, too. You're probably right that a more modest fitness increase might produce more similar results between the two groups, but that wouldn't illustrate the point.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

IMH (and mostly non-scientific, and at-best marginally worthwhile)O, the error people make in these discussions--and this article commits this error--is the error of essentialism. It's erroneous essentialism to say "all men and women are fundamentally the same." And it's also erroneous essentialism to say "men and women are fundamentally different." Men and women are two populations of widely varying individuals whose behaviors and attitudes are all over the map, but there probably are very significant mean differences between the populations. So it's fine and useful to make some generalizations, but always keeping in mind that the generalizations are just generalizations and don't take into account that there's bound to be significant overlap even while the means are different.

The results of this study do not at all surprise me as observations about mean differences in the attitudes of the two populations.

The author isn't claiming that this is universal, I just don't think it's necessary to pile on 100 caveats that there are always exceptions.

You can say that men are taller than women, and reasonable people can recognize that this is a true statement, and that some women are taller than some men. You don't have to belabor those exceptions.

 

[NotWise]

The one thing the article makes perfectly clear is that I'd never subscribe to MaryHarrington. I find it generally unimportant and unsurprising, I disagree with quite a bit, and I dislike the way it's written.

As far as the photos go, I think the "after" shot is a look that men work on to impress other men. Straight women enjoy men's bodies, but the "after" look is too extreme for most women to appreciate.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Interesting article, since I have no interest in men, I have no preference between the versions of the same man. I'm more auditory than visual. With that said, people in good shape are more visually pleasing than those who aren't. However, the man wasn't in bad shape before he became obsessed with fitness. To me, girl muscles are far more pleasing than boy muscles.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

But what's interesting and somewhat surprising, assuming the results are statistically valid, is that so many men DO think the after picture is better and don't believe that women actually prefer the first photo. It is rather extreme but men prefer it and assume that women would, too. You're probably right that a more modest fitness increase might produce more similar results between the two groups, but that wouldn't illustrate the point.

I suspect that many among the men who voted After did so acknowledging the caricatural part of the image, but still judged it better than the Before. I doubt it's those men who are in disbelief of women's choices.

 

[nice90sguy]

Olly Murs looks fucking weird in the "after" pic. <brrr...>

 

[NotWise]

To me, girl muscles are far more pleasing than boy muscles.

Girl muscle can be done in different ways, as can men's. My preference leans to this, though less extreme is good too.

 

[MillieDynamite]

But the percentages on the chart are all fucked up. They add up to a total of 100%, so were there fewer women in the poll? Of the 100% only 37% were women from the get-go!

 

[Kelliezgirl]

But the percentages on the chart are all fucked up. They add up to a total of 100%, so were there fewer women in the poll? Of the 100% only 37% were women from the get-go!

They only allow 4 choices, so you had to select gender and result as one choice.
But yes, it appears the majority of votes cast were male.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Girl muscle can be done in different ways, as can men's. My preference leans to this, though less extreme is good too.

View attachment 2563267

Absolutely don't disagree with that. In fact, I would give up body parts to look like her(um, ahem...)
For me though, male or female, it's the honesty of their smile that trumps everything else. If I can see it in their eyes, I'm at least interested.
Staying with women for the moment, petite, Rubenesque, it doesn't matter if her eyes sparkle when she smiles.


EDIT: I just noticed your tag line... Um, I hate coffee. LOL

 

[MillieDynamite]

That's not a proper survey in the first place.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

That's not a proper survey in the first place.

I don't think the guy who posted the survey was trying to conduct research for a peer reviewed study.
Interestingly though, the results of that survey seem to agree with what everyone here is saying about the images.

 

[onehitwanda]

Girl muscle can be done in different ways, as can men's. My preference leans to this, though less extreme is good too.

View attachment 2563267

I'll be in my bunk!

 

[Gamblnluck]

I see a few fallacies here. One is they only looked at male vs female without regard to age. I could see 20 something females going more for the after with older females (even 40's) going for the before. Why? They'd feel pressured by the after pic. They'd feel inadequate if with somebody like that.

The same 40 year old might love to have a young 'after' pursuing her for an affair however. They only asked what they liked, not why. Like do you find it appealing in general or as a companion.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Girl muscle can be done in different ways, as can men's. My preference leans to this, though less extreme is good too.

View attachment 2563267

Tastes are such a strange thing. The girl's face is both cute and pretty, but her body puts me off a lot.

Is there an image Before?

 

[Erozetta]

Tastes are such a strange thing. The girl's face is both cute and pretty, but her body puts me off a lot.

Is there an image Before?

Look at her feet. That girl is a ballerina. The before image would be, I hope, significantly more off-putting than a muscular female body.

 

[Gamblnluck]

The girl's face is both cute and pretty, but her body puts me off a lot.

Is that because 'gym rats' in general might bother you? Like you extrapolate this woman's primary attention is centered on her own body?