The existence of ghosts and spirits

[MartinHeidegger]

There's as much good evidence for ghosts as there is for the lizard people who anally violate Rightguide.

 

[Comshaw]

The Schrodinger's cat paradox was proposed to illustrate the absurdities of quantum theory, in particular a certain interpretation of something called state superposition and collapse by observation, when applied to the macro world. Most physicists would say that superposition is a real phenomena. The exception being, as far as I know (there may be others) those holding to something called quantum Bayesianism. But that interpretation is antirealist, anyway.

This has nothing to do with common sense intuitions.

It may have been proposed originally to illustrate the absurdities of quantum theory (which I was not aware of), but has since made it's way into philosophy as a mental exercise on the human belief system showing that two opposing beliefs can exist simultaneously, one as valid as the other, until such time as one or the other is proven.


Comshaw

 

[MartinHeidegger]

It may have been proposed originally to illustrate the absurdities of quantum theory (which I was not aware of), but has since made it's way into philosophy as a mental exercise on the human belief system showing that two opposing beliefs can exist simultaneously, one as valid as the other, until such time as one or the other is proven.


Comshaw

Are there any articles on this use of Schrodinger's cat that you can point to? Genuinely asking, as this is not something I'm familiar with. Every time I've encountered Schrodinger's cat in philosophy, it's been in the context of philosophy of science or philosophy of physics in particular. The holding of two contradictory beliefs simultaneously I've seen called cognitive dissonance (which is a different sense, from the epistemological).

 

[LupusDei]

It may have been proposed originally to illustrate the absurdities of quantum theory (which I was not aware of), but has since made it's way into philosophy as a mental exercise on the human belief system showing that two opposing beliefs can exist simultaneously, one as valid as the other, until such time as one or the other is proven.


Comshaw

Some now are doing away with the observer paradox by proposing that all matter, even an election has some level of conciousness, so it chooses it's quantum state not fall in one randomly. So, universe observes itself. And even then, non-locality is a difficult animal. Perhaps particles don't travel in any uninterrupted sense, but teleport at quantum distances.

Or, some would say (thousands of years ago), we're all dreams of Krishna.

 

[Comshaw]

You did not claim that "some" humans and cultures were religious zealots and your anecdotes about those that were has no bearing in the discussion. The Church of Christ, Scientist members today reject medical treatments. Does that mean that Comshaw version 3030 a.d. can claim that people of 2020 believed that?

Neither the mental acuity nor capacity to understand the discussion. No I did not claim that "some" humans in that era were zealots, although if you bother to read history you will discover that the vast majority were. And as far as my anecdotes having no bearing on the discussion, you were the one claiming that those of that age understood the connection of germs and viruses (even if they didn't know exactly what they were) to illnesses. All I did was point out, with the help of an article, that most in that era attributed those illness to god and not some earthly reason, so it had every bearing on the discussion..

Neither youz nor your granddad's peers invented scientific method. Not having yep discovered many of the things that we now know does not mean that they were not searching the physical world for answers. The fact that many turned to religion and superstition out of frustration and limited options has nothing whatsoever to do with their innate abilities.

Where did I say they weren't using what scientific knowledge they had to search for answers? I never said or implied any such thing. Some were, but they were very few and far between.
On the other hand you claimed,
"...but they were aware of both scientific method, not much different than we have today, the concept of naturally occurring diseases from physical causes and the tramsmissibility thereof." So they were aware of all that, but the vast majority still attributed the plague to God's wrath? Yea, okay. That and your insistance that my "anecdotes" having no bearing on the discussion is an ignorant statement.
You really need to study more history. Read the cite that I posted and get back to me.

You're barely smarter than Luk; you are certainly not smarter than ancient physicians. You just have more knowledge then they did and that's only because the knowledge you have is common knowledge today. The common knowledge of today is built on the limited knowledge of the past.

The attempted insult aside, I never claimed to be smarter then "ancient physicians" and I have no idea why you would even say that or the rest of that totally irrelevant and incomprehensible statement. And FYI bloodletting wasn't only done by physicians, it was done by barbers, black smiths, inn keepers and whom ever decided to hang out a shingle for that particular service. Many of which weren't bloodletting to try to bleed an infection, but were doing so to try to let out the evil spirits. Yea, i think you need to educate yourself more on history before you open your mouth and put your foot firmly into it.

Comshaw

 

[Comshaw]

Are there any articles on this use of Schrodinger's cat that you can point to? Genuinely asking, as this is not something I'm familiar with. Every time I've encountered Schrodinger's cat in philosophy, it's been in the context of philosophy of science or philosophy of physics in particular. The holding of two contradictory beliefs simultaneously I've seen called cognitive dissonance (which is a different sense, from the epistemological).

I'll have to see if I can find the articles I was reading about this and get back to you. Cognitive dissonance is a different thing. It's when a single person holds two opposite beliefs as opposed to two people holding opposing beliefs. The former is incongruous in that it's impossible for a single person to justify one while also justifying it's opposite. In the latter instance, both can be considered valid because of the lack of proof for either one. As a layman in philosophy you'll have to forgive my some what incomplete explanations.

Comshaw

 

[Conager]

Neither the mental acuity nor capacity to understand the discussion. No I did not claim that "some" humans in that era were zealots, although if you bother to read history you will discover that the vast majority were. And as far as my anecdotes having no bearing on the discussion, you were the one claiming that those of that age understood the connection of germs and viruses (even if they didn't know exactly what they were) to illnesses. All I did was point out, with the help of an article, that most in that era attributed those illness to god and not some earthly reason, so it had every bearing on the discussion..




Where did I say they weren't using what scientific knowledge they had to search for answers? I never said or implied any such thing. Some were, but they were very few and far between.
On the other hand you claimed,
"...but they were aware of both scientific method, not much different than we have today, the concept of naturally occurring diseases from physical causes and the tramsmissibility thereof." So they were aware of all that, but the vast majority still attributed the plague to God's wrath? Yea, okay. That and your insistance that my "anecdotes" having no bearing on the discussion is an ignorant statement.
You really need to study more history. Read the cite that I posted and get back to me.




The attempted insult aside, I never claimed to be smarter then "ancient physicians" and I have no idea why you would even say that or the rest of that totally irrelevant and incomprehensible statement. And FYI bloodletting wasn't only done by physicians, it was done by barbers, black smiths, inn keepers and whom ever decided to hang out a shingle for that particular service. Many of which weren't bloodletting to try to bleed an infection, but were doing so to try to let out the evil spirits. Yea, i think you need to educate yourself more on history before you open your mouth and put your foot firmly into it.

Comshaw

I'm not the one claiming that history was devoid of science and medicine and consisted exclusively of religion and superstition. You did that. The fact that you want to backpedal from that doesn't change the fact that you're the one that did that.

 

[Comshaw]

I'm not the one claiming that history was devoid of science and medicine and consisted exclusively of religion and superstition. You did that. The fact that you want to backpedal from that doesn't change the fact that you're the one that did that.

Please go back, find and quote where I said that. Go on, supply my quote. There's only three pages on this thread so it really shouldn't be hard to find. What you gunna do? Prove me a liar, or keep silent and prove yourself one? Choose wisely.

Comshaw

 

[nowisthetime]

Now why in the heck would they want to come back here on this hellhole called Earth after passing? Death is eternal peace.

 

[HisArpy]

Now why in the heck would they want to come back here on this hellhole called Earth after passing? Death is eternal peace.

Can you supply any evidence of this? Comshaw would like to see it.

 

[HisArpy]

What evidence? Where? your sightings? THe observation of others? That's your evidence? If that's your evidence, perhaps you should go back to the beginning of this thread and read the article. you know the one you haven't. If there is any other valid evidence i'd like to see it.

Comshaw

It's not just my personal observations. We have other personal observations as well as video which shows inexplicable incidents of SOMETHING. Audio recordings as well.

Some of the audio can be explained as a "recording" (like that pub wall in the UK) but there are numerous audio recordings made at Gettyburg which have sounds that cannot be explained.

You can choose to disbelieve. That doesn't mean there's no evidence, it means there's evidence you don't want to believe.

 

[LupusDei]

Now why in the heck would they want to come back here on this hellhole called Earth after passing? Death is eternal peace.

Well, the thinking on this is going a bit differently, they just doesn't leave, for some reason.

In one interpretation, we have physical body, spiritual body and soul (a bit like a trio of Russian dolls or whatever). When you have out-of-body experiences you travel with the spiritual body. Soul is completely immaterial and can't be bared in this world, and once the physical body, the vehicle we ride, breaks beyond repair the soul goes to, where you point to, to the God, in most broad sense.

The spiritual body, it is left behind, and should dissolve, but sometimes may not, and continue on it's own for a while. Yet sometimes, somehow, a "true" ghost may be created, if the soul remain with the spiritual body, keeping it intact. It is in general, indeed not a good thing, but may, presumably, happen for a purpose (with must be prohibitively hard to achieve in that form, but whatever). More likely, it supposedly may happen if the death is a sudden shock and isn't accepted, and/or the soul lacks maturity or guidance how to ascend (although quite believably most of us will be totally taken by surprise by whatever after, if any, there might be (that is, if whatever remains for any after can experience surprise)).

Anyways, the ghost state is mostly perceived to be "lost" or "misguided" and not "natural" order of things. "Freeing the ghost," basically letting it finally rightfully die, is a recurring theme in ghost stories.

Perhaps, messing with spiritual world without necessary knowledge may create predispositions for that to happen, somehow. And there's how, and it's a much more troubling possibility: that a non-human spirit seeking expression in this plane of existence "stoles" the not yet dissolved spiritual body and wear it as a disguise, including access to imperfect copy of the surface memories. It is widely believed that most, if not all attempts to contact the dead end up talking with such impostors of unknown (and supposedly sometimes rather dangerous) motives.

From here, I think it's easy to see how investing enough willpower it may be possible to create a ghost, either by trapping the dying soul (by ultra-intense mourning or magical actions, including malicious intent, or whatever), or failing that, by pulling in a wandering spirit replacement.

And just for a note, all spiritual beings feed on faith.

 

[Comshaw]

It's not just my personal observations. We have other personal observations as well as video which shows inexplicable incidents of SOMETHING. Audio recordings as well.

Some of the audio can be explained as a "recording" (like that pub wall in the UK) but there are numerous audio recordings made at Gettyburg which have sounds that cannot be explained.

You can choose to disbelieve. That doesn't mean there's no evidence, it means there's evidence you don't want to believe.

Questions: Who is "We"? Video of what? Light blobs? Human figures? Sounds that can't be explained covers a lot of ground. So, like what? growls? moans? a continuous faint throbbing, a rendition of Bohemian Rhapsody? Have the recordings and video been examined and verified by experts? If that's the case, where can I see the videos, hear the recordings? There is evidence and then there is what some want desperately to be evidence.

Comshaw

 

[LupusDei]

Some of the audio can be explained as a "recording" (like that pub wall in the UK)

Ah yes, recordings. That's one possible explanation for what people may be obsessing although in comparison to what I would consider "true ghost" a completely different phenomenon. And not just sound only either. There's supposedly a whole lot recurring ghostly scenes of the past that just replay images, some type of holographic recording in, well, something, often mist is mentioned among requirements, but just as likely it only is a screen for the light show. The necessary characteristic of this type of "ghosts" is static repetition, devoid of any interactions (although like with any recording it is possible for one to fool himself or others some limited interaction happens), either on a schedule or in specific conditions.

Those indeed appear to be possible to instrumentally document, but almost equally easy to fake, so, maybe, but... And even it it does exist as phenomenon, it's likely just interesting physics toying with imagination. I very much doubt we could access that mechanism to observe past arbitrary or anything like that.

It's not unlike taking video projector a few centuries in the past and then saying to the natives, "look, ghosts!" The only difference is the recordings appear 3D and we have no idea how they happened to be recorded or how are played back.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

i grew up in a house that had a very benign ghost. we never saw him but he made himself known in various other ways, unless my whole family of 7 were simultaneously hallucinating.

...which is a much more likely explanation than corporeal reconstitution.

 

[HisArpy]

Ah yes, recordings. That's one possible explanation for what people may be obsessing although in comparison to what I would consider "true ghost" a completely different phenomenon. And not just sound only either. There's supposedly a whole lot recurring ghostly scenes of the past that just replay images, some type of holographic recording in, well, something, often mist is mentioned among requirements, but just as likely it only is a screen for the light show. The necessary characteristic of this type of "ghosts" is static repetition, devoid of any interactions (although like with any recording it is possible for one to fool himself or others some limited interaction happens), either on a schedule or in specific conditions.

Those indeed appear to be possible to instrumentally document, but almost equally easy to fake, so, maybe, but... And even it it does exist as phenomenon, it's likely just interesting physics toying with imagination. I very much doubt we could access that mechanism to observe past arbitrary or anything like that.

It's not unlike taking video projector a few centuries in the past and then saying to the natives, "look, ghosts!" The only difference is the recordings appear 3D and we have no idea how they happened to be recorded or how are played back.

The thing is we're talking about "evidence" of something that transcends human knowledge and experience. Whether it's merely an interesting physics phenomenon or not isn't the point. The point is that it exists.

 

[HisArpy]

Questions: Who is "We"? Video of what? Light blobs? Human figures? Sounds that can't be explained covers a lot of ground. So, like what? growls? moans? a continuous faint throbbing, a rendition of Bohemian Rhapsody? Have the recordings and video been examined and verified by experts? If that's the case, where can I see the videos, hear the recordings? There is evidence and then there is what some want desperately to be evidence.

Comshaw

The message that is coming across is that you disbelieve something you've never researched.

However, there are recordings on YouTube.

Here's one

Here's another

 

[MartinHeidegger]

Evidence of transcendental involves a contradiction of terms.

 

[Comshaw]

The message that is coming across is that you disbelieve something you've never researched.

However, there are recordings on YouTube.

Here's one

Here's another

Oh FFS! You don't think those could easily be faked? It would be very easy to do. I trust those recordings like I trust most things claimed on the net. Were they examined by experts and verified? No? Why not? If they're real they should be able to stand up to that kind of scrutiny.
Also why would some ghost on a civil war battle field be playing Yankee Doodle? Dixie maybe, Battle Hymn of the Republic possibly, a battle cadence yes but Yankee Doodle?

You can point to all these you want and it means jack if they haven't been examined and verified. This is the problem with things like this,"My brother's friends, cousins, sister saw one and made a fuzzy out of focus photo of it so I know it's true!

You are engaged in advanced confirmation bias. You pick out anything that might possibly support your belief, even if it's so fabulously contrived.

Comshaw

 

[rae121452]

There's as much good evidence for ghosts as there is for the lizard people who anally violate Rightguide.

pictures?

 

[enigma3]

I've been given the willies a few times after dark, which was disconcerting to say the least

I can imagine I've been scared stiff a few times

 

[Biggs_Darklighter]

I believe in God, I think most of Jesus' miracles probably happened and I have never totally discounted the possibility of vampires but I simply do not believe in ghosts at all. Not even a tiny bit.

 

[dolf]

I believe belief in gods, ghosts, and anything past the physical realm is a way to explain things people don't understand, and a way to avoid the bleak reality that we're just self aware blobs of pretentious energy, killing time until we decay into cosmic tepidity.

A whole lot of the woowoo can be explained by the way brains work, magnets, weather, fakery, wishful thinking... possibly even quantum entanglement, or time moving in ways far more complex than most of the meat sacks can conceive.

 

[oggbashan]

I don't watch ghost-hunting programs - they are an hour of finding nothing...

 

[Biggs_Darklighter]

I don't watch ghost-hunting programs - they are an hour of finding nothing...

yep. They act like every sound is proof of ghosts and plenty of people buy into it but in the end they never really find shit.
I did see one once where they actually found bones buried in a supposedly haunted basement. Never followed up on the story but what I read at the time made it seem a legit find and got the cops interested.