The Dumbing Down of our Children...

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

All the more reason to offshore jobs to places where people are shot if they dont conform.

 

[midwestyankee]

I am amazed at the number of comments about how things are in schools these days by people who aren't there. I am. I don't see any of this crap--especially in my class.

Same here, bear.

What amuses me is the degree to which people - and they're mostly conservative folk, though not universally so - who presume that the "problem with schools today" is something that they don't like. Funny how the "problem with schools today" is never that teachers in many states - and I know that California is one of them - find themselves paying for materials to be used and consumed (i.e., pencils, chalk, notebooks, paper) in their classrooms because the parents won't accept a bit of tax hike to cover the rising costs of the very programs that they demand the schools provide.

Sure, schools could be better. But so could your local McDonalds and your local government. Institutions are rarely perfect.

And as for the whole meme that 'kids these days don't have no respect and theyll never amount to a damn thing" I can assure anyone reading this that that same meme was popular in the 1940s and 50s. Of course, it was that generation of "kids" that put our men on the moon and brought them back.

But facts rarely matter to the kinds of people whose goal in life is to achieve their daily quota of bitching.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

So what has happened to you since to make you such an insufferable know-it-all who clings to right-wing dogma about taxation, despite overwhelming evidence that your beliefs, when implemented, fail to have the predicted outcomes?

Because I'm not a communist like you.

 

[Huckleman2000]

Because I'm not a communist like you.

You know, Zeb, you can waste a lot of energy and brain cycles trying to rationalize that the people who have money and healthcare problems deserve those problems, that those people aren't productive parts of the system you believe in so unquestioningly. It doesn't make them go away. You can call me a communist, a leach, a layabout, retarded, a liberal - any name you like. It doesn't make me go away; I'm still a citizen, just like you. Calling me names doesn't get me a job or health insurance. It doesn't protect you if your COBRA runs out before you have a job. It doesn't protect you if your new job doesn't pay you enough to cover your mortgage and health insurance, and you can't sell your house for what your mortgage is worth.

Your hate of me doesn't solve any problems. It's just some mental gymnastics that you perform in order to shift blame away from yourself for all the things you despise in yourself.

Grow the fuck up.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

You know, Zeb, you can waste a lot of energy and brain cycles trying to rationalize that the people who have money and healthcare problems deserve those problems, that those people aren't productive parts of the system you believe in so unquestioningly. It doesn't make them go away. You can call me a communist, a leach, a layabout, retarded, a liberal - any name you like. It doesn't make me go away; I'm still a citizen, just like you. Calling me names doesn't get me a job or health insurance. It doesn't protect you if your COBRA runs out before you have a job. It doesn't protect you if your new job doesn't pay you enough to cover your mortgage and health insurance, and you can't sell your house for what your mortgage is worth.

Your hate of me doesn't solve any problems. It's just some mental gymnastics that you perform in order to shift blame away from yourself for all the things you despise in yourself.

Grow the fuck up.

Well quite a diatribe. So I despise myself...that's the humorous thing I have ever heard. You may despise yourself, but I can assure you I don't. And while I'm unemployed I'm not crying about how unlucky I am to be one of those who is. And when I can't get insurance when my COBRA runs out you won't hear me on this board crying about it to you.

And when ObamaCare is forced on all of us at higher costs than now I'll be laughing at you when you start crying about how much it's costing you for your insurance, mandated by that same loving government you cherish so much.

 

[Huckleman2000]

[..] And when I can't get insurance when my COBRA runs out you won't hear me on this board crying about it to you.
[...]

Right. You'll just shut up and die, like a real man does when he can't defend the herd any longer.

 

[Katyusha]

I think you misspelled JFK, or maybe it was LBJ, but it might have been Eisenhower or Truman.

It wasn't the politicians that started the decline, though; it was the invention of Child Psychology that produced a generation of politicians that think NCLB is a reasonable response to the failings of the educational system.

What's happening is the best example I can currently think of about not learning from the past mistakes of others. Back in the 80s and 90s Japan tried the standardized testing thing that NCLB is modeled after...and discovered that teaching children this way fails miserably. But at the time NCLB was implemented Japan had one of the strongest education systems in the world. They didn't think to look at what Japan was doing right then. They looked at what Japan had done ten years before and decided that had to be what worked.

I don't know of a teacher who thinks NCLB is a wise idea, or believes that it works.

 

[Huckleman2000]

[...]I don't know of a teacher who thinks NCLB is a wise idea, or believes that it works.

The weird thing is that the people who think innovative new technologies will always solve problems and expand the economy, are the ones who seem to think standardized one-size-fits-all doctrinaire teaching is the foundation of such a system.

 

[stephen55]

What to do about John Hopkins Middle School....

I'm afraid they do, at least everyone involved says these kids intimidate the cops.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/education/k12/article1076646.ece

Reading the article, I get the sense that the cops (and everyone else) are exasperated, tired of the mayhem and desperate for effective measures to get the school under control. That is, desperate for effective methods to deal with the hooligans. But as the associate superintendent said, "there is no magic bullet." Not living in St. Petersburg Florida makes me ineligible to make any specific suggestions for solutions but I suspect that the problems might have something to do with the nature of kids. It also might have something to do with the nature of adults reacting to the nature of kids.

I've been fortunate to live in a community where the schools are reasonably sane. There are the expected fist fights for the usual reasons (usually male hormones competing in aggression displays to attract female hormones) and every few months some kid is taken in by the RCMP for dealing drugs. It's much as I remember from my days at school. Gang activity has slowly been growing around here and the level of street violence has risen in lockstep. The local RCMP has made an effort, successfully, to work with the schools to teach students that it's their schools and to resist the urge to remain silent about observed gang related activity. Students can call an anonymous hot line and give the RCMP a head's up about going's on. The key was in getting student's to accept that remaining silent out of some "code of distrust for authority" was not a good idea. There are the usual cliques of personality (race, interest, jock, nerd, goth, emo, etc., etc.) types and friction has been lessened by programs to get the kids to understand that their similarities greatly outweigh their differences. As a result, the gangs still try to get into the schools (no on ever accused them of being quitters) but they are for the most part unsuccessful.

My point is that the kids around here are being shown how to deal with violence by not allowing the breeding ground of violence to get established in the first place. The old, established reasons for fisticuffs will, I suspect, go on. How the adults in St. Petersburg reduce and hopefully remove the breeding ground is beyond me. I just hope they come up with a few things that work.

 

[Guest]

What does that mean.. "When my COBRA runs out?".

I am not familiar with the term (or acronym)

 

[Zeb_Carter]

What does that mean.. "When my COBRA runs out?".

I am not familiar with the term (or acronym)

Here you go...enjoy.

The Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1985 (or COBRA) is a law passed by the U.S. Congress and signed by President Reagan that, among other things, mandates an insurance program giving some employees the ability to continue health insurance coverage after leaving employment. COBRA includes amendments to the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974 (ERISA). The law deals with a great variety of subjects, such as tobacco price supports, railroads, private pension plans, disability insurance, and the postal service , but it is perhaps best known for Title X, which amends the Internal Revenue Code and the Public Health Service Act to deny income tax deductions to employers for contributions to a group health plan unless such plan meets certain continuing coverage requirements. The violation for failing to meet those criteria was subsequently changed to an excise tax.

Although this statute became law on April 7, 1986, its official name is the Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1985 (Pub.L. 99-272, 100 Stat. 82). Because of the discrepancy between the official name of the Act and the year in which it was enacted,[1] some government publications refer to the Act as the Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1986. The Act is often referred to simply as "COBRA".

 

[Guest]

Here you go...enjoy.

Thank you for the information, I understand it a little better now.

 

[3113]

From Charles J. Sykes, author of the book Dumbing Down Our Kids: Why American Children Feel Good About Themselves But Can't Read, Write, Or Add:

You know what? I'd like to analyze some of this essay. Not all of it, just a few of the more salient points. Let's really take it apart and see if accurate--or missing the boat.

Rule No. 1: Life is not fair.
Let's stop there. So. We're not suppose to say, "It's not fair!" Ever? Funny. "It's not fair!" is why people tossed tea over the side of a boat. It's why the colonies had a war with Britain and became their own country in hopes of letting everyone elect their leaders rather than, unfairly, allowing only certain people to lead by right of birth. "It's not Fair!"--seeing that and saying that, realizing it--is why people marched against Jim Crow laws--at great risk to their lives--and put an end to them.

So. When black folks weren't getting the same education as whites, weren't allowed to eat at the lunch counters or ride at the front of the bus, we should have said to them, "Hey, life's not fair" and left it at that? When women weren't paid the same as men for the same work, we should've told them, "Hey, life's not fair?" We shouldn't teach our kids to try and do anything about unfairness, just accept it?

Nice. From now on, when you complain about how unfair you find something--anything--I'm going to remind you..."Life's not fair. Stop whining." Because, obviously, you shouldn't care about fairness. Not ever. Or fight for it. Or try to change it. Is that about right?

The average teen-ager uses the phrase "It's not fair" 8.6 times a day.
Hm. How many teens did he sample to get that stat? And, okay, so teens say it 8 times a day. Did they say it 8 times a day back in the 50's? Back in Victorian times? Oh, wait. He probably doesn't have those stats. In other words, he's making it seem like they say it a lot and "learned this from their parents"--when he really knows no such thing. Has he measured how many times an adult says this? How about how many times former teens who said this 8 times a day say it when they're 20? If it goes away, why should he take it as evidence of anything more than what teens say because they're teens?

Rule No. 3: Sorry, you won't make $40,000 a year right out of high school.
We're in a bitter recession right now. Kids are living with parents who are both on unemployment. Those kids are watching their homes and the contents of their home being sold. They're getting jobs if they can get them--and know how little they make in a year at those jobs. They know not to complain if they're sick because their parents can't afford to take them to do the doctor. Their parents can barely afford to put food on the table.

If you think teens now have this inflated idea of the salary they deserve to be earning, you're the one who's fuckin' fooling yourself.

Rule No. 5: Flipping burgers is not beneath your dignity
See my answer to Rule 3. Kids are seeing their parents flip burgers to keep the family afloat. If you think they think it "below" their dignity, you're the one who's out of touch. Job fairs aren't happening any more because every job has a dozen desperate applicants and most of those are unemployed adults. Teens know they'll be lucky to get a job flipping burgers--because a dozen adults who have to feed their families are going to be fighting them for that job.

Rule No. 6: Don't whine about it, or you'll sound like a baby boomer.
Tsk. Tsk. Zeb. Does this guy remember that Boomers are the ones who fought in Vietnam? Would he call those ex-vets winers? And yet they're just as much baby boomers as the ones who marched for civil rights in Mississippi. Can we take this bigoted stereotype as an example of how much we should trust this guy's observations?

Rule No. 10: Television is not real life.
It wasn't when this guy wrote this stupid essay. Now there's reality tv.

In conclusion, I'd like to point out that this article mentions "Kurt Cobain." Oh, dear. That makes it 20 Fucking Years old! It might be time to get a new, more accurate and current essay on what teens are facing in todays schools and job market--and with their parents. Otherwise, you just end up sounding dated, tired, and ill-informed rather than witty and clever.

You're welcome.

 

[Guest]

***
In conclusion, I'd like to point out that this article mentions "Kurt Cobain." Oh, dear. That makes it 20 Fucking Years old! It might be time to get a new, more accurate and current essay on what teens are facing in todays schools and job market--and with their parents. Otherwise, you just end up sounding dated, tired, and ill-informed rather than witty and clever.

You're welcome.

I remember Kurt Cobain. Of course, if I were married to Courtney Love, I probably would have shot myself too.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

I remember Kurt Cobain. Of course, if I were married to Courtney Love, I probably would have shot myself too.

I was and did...

3113...so life is fair?

The rest I could care less about. When did life become fair?

 

[Katyusha]

3113...so life is fair?

The rest I could care less about. When did life become fair?

The way I interpreted her post was that the author is advocating simply shrugging and accepting that life isn't fair and to not attempt to do anything about it, and she thinks that's ridiculous.

As an example, you're a huge proponent of the Fair Tax Act. Why's it called the Fair Tax Act? When I was debating the merits of the Fair Tax Act with you, what would your response have been if I'd said, "Look, Zeb, I agree the current income tax system isn't fair, but life isn't fair, so just accept it and move on?"

If we were all to shrug and simply accept that life isn't fair, things like the Fair Tax Act wouldn't even become a rough draft of a bill, because nobody would think to fight against the unfairness of the current system and nothing at all would ever get done.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

The way I interpreted her post was that the author is advocating simply shrugging and accepting that life isn't fair and to not attempt to do anything about it, and she thinks that's ridiculous.

As an example, you're a huge proponent of the Fair Tax Act. Why's it called the Fair Tax Act? When I was debating the merits of the Fair Tax Act with you, what would your response have been if I'd said, "Look, Zeb, I agree the current income tax system isn't fair, but life isn't fair, so just accept it and move on?"

If we were all to shrug and simply accept that life isn't fair, things like the Fair Tax Act wouldn't even become a rough draft of a bill, because nobody would think to fight against the unfairness of the current system and nothing at all would ever get done.

But you see, life isn't fair. It's what's called a truism. It never has and it never will but you don't teach kids it is, was what the author was saying. Schools today don't prepare the little darlings they teach to deal with real life. If all though school everything is "fair", then how are they going to deal with the unfairness of real life?

 

[Huckleman2000]

The way I interpreted her post was that the author is advocating simply shrugging and accepting that life isn't fair and to not attempt to do anything about it, and she thinks that's ridiculous.

As an example, you're a huge proponent of the Fair Tax Act. Why's it called the Fair Tax Act? When I was debating the merits of the Fair Tax Act with you, what would your response have been if I'd said, "Look, Zeb, I agree the current income tax system isn't fair, but life isn't fair, so just accept it and move on?"

If we were all to shrug and simply accept that life isn't fair, things like the Fair Tax Act wouldn't even become a rough draft of a bill, because nobody would think to fight against the unfairness of the current system and nothing at all would ever get done.

Now there you go, "explaining things", and "making sense". You'll never get anywhere with that attitude.

 

[Guest]

Check THIS out.

Students at several of Indiana University's game design courses begin their class with zero "experience points," which corresponds to an F grade. Instead of completing presentations, they'll perform "quests;" sitting exams becomes "fighting monsters;" and handing in assignments becomes "crafting." Students even team up into "guilds" to tackle group projects.

Admittedly, it is for a game design school but what if this concept makes it into traditional education. Can you see awarding experience points for essays?

Other than the names that they are changing, I don't see a huge departure from the traditional grading system. If a paper is worth 100 points towards the final grade, and you give the students the number (80%? B?) instead of a letter grade (say, 80 points, instead) does that harm anything?

 

[Loring2]

The dumbing down of our children started under the Reagan Administration by the systematic underfunding of our schools (1981) and subsequent reductions in federal funding. His regime encourgaged the so-called Christian right activists to attack the teaching of history, science, and social issues in the public schools...when he got elected this nation had just endured a historical growing pain of an educated electorate....not a great resource for the rich and powerful....they'd rather have you waving racist signs at the 'teabagger protests' than making educated decisions about your future....welcome to the monkey house......and thank your 'Great White Fatha - Ronnie Rayguns - for the demise of the middle class.....
The Repubtards hope that no one remembers their concerted efforts to bring this great nation to its knees.....
Every republican president since roosevelt has increased the national debt....don't take my word for it, investigate and find out for yourself....think for yourself.....it might hurt at first, but so much more satisfying when it's accomplished......

Come on Lippy ... they quit giving awards for the most stupid and ignorant response .. you win them all anyway.

Loring

 

[Dragonlipz]

Come on Lippy ... they quit giving awards for the most stupid and ignorant response .. you win them all anyway.

Loring

I'm with you Loring, we need to quit giving it all away to the niggers! They didn't do anything to deserve it! They didn't appreciate the great projects we built for them or the social matrix we provided. They still give awards to the most racist and mentally challenged! You got a good shot at one and I've got your back! I'm rooting for you! You are the dumbest! Yo mama says so.....

 

[xssve]

Check THIS out.

Students at several of Indiana University's game design courses begin their class with zero "experience points," which corresponds to an F grade. Instead of completing presentations, they'll perform "quests;" sitting exams becomes "fighting monsters;" and handing in assignments becomes "crafting." Students even team up into "guilds" to tackle group projects.

Admittedly, it is for a game design school but what if this concept makes it into traditional education. Can you see awarding experience points for essays?

Other than the names that they are changing, I don't see a huge departure from the traditional grading system. If a paper is worth 100 points towards the final grade, and you give the students the number (80%? B?) instead of a letter grade (say, 80 points, instead) does that harm anything?

It actually sounds like a good approach to me - writing an essay is an experience, properly done, it involves a lot of research, presenting ideas in a logical order, learning the conventions w/regard to attribution and annotation, objective vs. subjective analysis, etc.

Presumably, writing and essay is practice for writing reports, but it's core purpose is an exercise in problem solving, critical thinking, and dialectic reasoning, thesis, antithesis and synthesis - which requires a significant degree of objectivity to pull off properly.

I love writing research papers, I always learn something, I learned a huge amount about the relationship between media violence and violent behavior in children, and there is no empirical evidence that suggests it's plays anything other than a indirect, peripheral role, and the role it does play is completely counterintuitive to the usual superficial analysis of "monkey see, monkey do".

Just to make it short, violent media has little to do with it, Leave it to Beaver is actually one of the shows that cased the crime rate to rise beck in the Fifties and Sixties, see perception of inequality", and this has been a well known and established phenomena in social psychology for over Fifty years.

To illustrate, I'd have to give poor Zeb here 0 experience points for this essay - for a start, it's plagiarized, all the thinking involved is strictly confined to reinforcing his preconceived notions - second, there really isn't much in the way of valid argument here, a lot of undefined presumptions being touted - yes, in the "real world" employers expect results, but results themselves are typically attained through the application of critical thinking - try blaming your liberal colleague next time you're late with a work assignment, and see how far the particular problem solving approach taken in this essay takes you in "the real world".

All we end up with is, "beat your kids", and "suck it up chuck" - this might work in certain situations, but I don't believe even the military takes this approach much, at least the first part, and military training involves training people to go against their every instinct and shred of common sense, which tells you that when people are shooting at you, you run the other way.

It's just a hell of a lot more complicated than that. Even in combat, you don't take the direct approach until you've exhausted all the other possibilities that are less likely to get you killed, no? Is there not a certain amount of critical thinking involved, or do you just fling bodies at a bunker?

Right wing neo-con logic dictated that you wait for them to invite you in, whilst dancing and strewing flowers in your path - with no apparent plan B. Even as bleeding heart liberal, that strikes me as a trifle optimistic, and seems to me that sure enough, that didn't work out so well, and a lot of people had to do a lot of improvising.

 

[Guest]

...All we end up with is, "beat your kids", and "suck it up chuck" - this might work in certain situations, but I don't believe even the military takes this approach much, at least the first part, and military training involves training people to go against their every instinct and shred of common sense, which tells you that when people are shooting at you, you run the other way.

It's just a hell of a lot more complicated than that. Even in combat, you don't take the direct approach until you've exhausted all the other possibilities that are less likely to get you killed, no? Is there not a certain amount of critical thinking involved, or do you just fling bodies at a bunker?

We do not do a lot of critical thinking at the private level. At that level, we need obedience. Once you make a promotion or three, however, we expect you to have the basics down and start asking questions as a Specialist or Corporal (both the same pay grade). It takes about a year before we actually expect critical thinking out of a soldier.

At my level, though it's nearly ALL critical thinking and supervision.

a big reason for that, actually, is that they are not prepared to think critically when they arrive in the Army. No one ever taught them how. We work it into them slowly and through push-ups.

At my level, though it's nearly ALL critical thinking and supervision.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

XSSVE's idea of logic is indistinguishable from astrology or deciphering the riddle of chicken entrails.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

SGT

You want cannon fodder to obey without question and act based on training.

From where I sit it looks to me that today's army has its head up its ass; youve been in Afghanistan almost 10 years and accomplished shit. You have all the toys but no brains and no balls.