The Double Standard

[dr_mabeuse]

The one that allows men to fuck around as much as they want, but brands women who do it "whores". Who started it: men or women? Who maintains it? Is it dying out or going strong?

Does it exist in the gay community as well?

I was always of the opinion that women were more judgmental of other women than men were, but I think that was just true of the crowd I grew up with, which was very liberal. I don't think I ever heard a man seriously disparage a woman as a "whore" till I was out of college, and I remember thinking at the time that person must be kidding, that the term was almost quaint in period of sexual liberation. I was pretty naive. At the same time, it wasn't that uncommon to hear women refer to other women as whores back then, and they meant it.

I guess the situation was kind of similar to the situation with the word "bitch" or "nigger" today, it was a "privileged epithet". You could use it if you were a woman, but not if you were a man.

 

[TheeGoatPig]

Men are the ones who go and and pay for whores. So I would have to guess that it is women who further the insitution that women shouldn't sleep around.

Also, it's usually another slut that throws the first stone. "You slept with how many guys? You're a slut!" Even though she slept with X + 2 guys herself.

 

[Guest]

Men are the ones who go and and pay for whores. So I would have to guess that it is women who further the insitution that women shouldn't sleep around.

Also, it's usually another slut that throws the first stone. "You slept with how many guys? You're a slut!" Even though she slept with X + 2 guys herself.

It's usually another slut?

Perhaps you wish to rephrase?

I thought you said it was the women who further the institution.

 

[TheeGoatPig]

It's usually another slut?

Perhaps you wish to rephrase?

I thought you said it was the women who further the institution.

Most of the women I have known are sluts?...

*runs away*

 

[Guest]

Most of the women I have known are sluts?...

*runs away*

That's not even worth arguing over, TGP.

 

[CeriseNoire]

Most of the women I have known are sluts?...

*runs away*

Do you feel the same about the guys you know who have slept with x+2?

 

[BlackShanglan]

I'll show my Marxist roots here, but I think it's economic. Throughout most of history, men held the money and women handled the production of heirs. A man who had sex with whomever he liked wasn't really a financial threat; until it became possible to test the DNA of a child, the path of denial generally worked. Women who had sex outside of marriage (in the sense of a social/financial institution) were a threat because they could divert resources to inappropriate targets. The man could end up investing money and resources in raising someone else's children. Depending on the society, even worse could be in store; in England, for instance, as late as the 1800's, an entailed estate could legally be withheld from a man's son and end up with a distant relative if substantial doubt were raised as to his wife's constancy (and hence the parentage of the heir).

The chief way to prevent that from happening, of course, was to prevent the woman from having sex with anyone else, and that led to a host of charming institutions the world over, which it be physical confinement, genital mutilation, covering women with sacks, or simply labelling any woman who displayed sexual desire for any man as a slut. If you go back just a few hundred years, any sexual desire, even for the woman's lawful spouse, is rather suspect. I think it's Swift who calls a woman who runs off with (and marries) a man she feels a passion for "half wife, half whore," and certainly Gulliver is repulsed by the thought of man and wife having sex while the wife is pregnant. After all, they've already achieved the only decent goal.

Shanglan

 

[gauchecritic]

I think the situation arises, possibly through male insecurity. In general a man would rather not be compared with others in the shagging department.
It matters not (we are told) that other men have longer, thicker penii and can last longer than 4 minutes before they cum but we generally can't believe that it doesn't matter.

Apparently, for women, it's the man that matters not the penis. But however much we are told that we would prefer that a woman doesn't have enough experience to know the difference. The experience doesn't matter, it's the knowing.

Oddly enough (and I know it's only make believe) Every woman on 'Friends' has an enormous amount of experience whereas Chandler and Ross have had about 6 women altogether between them. (ooer)

So each and every woman, representing any kind of social hierarchy you care to mention are 'sluts' to the bone, but never once (to my memory) has it ever been so much as hinted at that it is a bad thing.

 

[NoJo]

I think its cos humans are polygynous, male harem animals, like gorillas, and some chimps. But we share the bonobo's proimscuous nature too.

So it's biological. So fuck.

 

[gauchecritic]

certainly Gulliver is repulsed by the thought of man and wife having sex while the wife is pregnant. After all, they've already achieved the only decent goal.

Shanglan

I think that might be more to do with "the sulphurous pit" than with reasons for sex.

That is to say:

Down from the waist they are centaurs,
Though women all above:
But to the girdle do the gods inherit,
Beneath is all the fiend's; there's hell, there's darkness,
There is the sulphurous pit; burning, scalding, stench,
consumption; fie, fie, fie! pah, pah!

Sex and its distraction being wielded by the female that should be subordinate but holds a magical power over men and thus (in a biblical stylee) holding man back from achieving angelhood.

(Can someone start a critical appreciation thread for Lit work?)

 

[Stella_Omega]

My guess is that women censure promiscuous women far more than men do. And plenty of men do so as well. Sexually aggressive women quickly learn that the social environment of highschool-based cliques is pretty much hostile towards them. Of course that depends on where you are; Big cities and university towns are much more tolerant, just the way they are more tolerant of gays and lesbians, and other races...

 

[Guest]

My guess is that women censure promiscuous women far more than men do. And plenty of men do so as well. Sexually aggressive women quickly learn that the social environment of highschool-based cliques is pretty much hostile towards them. Of course that depends on where you are; Big cities and university towns are much more tolerant, just the way they are more tolerant of gays and lesbians, and other races...

Women are horrible to other women.

Situation - several women approaching each other from different directions on a sidewalk. One woman is gorgeous and carries herself well, the other two are of average beauty. After they pass, one of the average women turns to her friend and says, "Bitch."

I remember in high school and college we used the terms "slut" and "whore" not necessarily for women who slept around, but primarily for those women who slept around with men we were interested in (or even our current boyfriends).

But I also remember the guys referring to women they dated as "sluts "just because they knew before going out they were going to get laid. They shared the name of the "easy" woman with buddies so they could pass her around, so to speak.

One girl they called "Hoover" because she was great with blow jobs.

Is it better now? It's been a few years since I was an undergrad. I hope so.

 

[3113]

I was always of the opinion that women were more judgmental of other women than men were

But that's putting the cart before the horse.

*Historically* speaking and in most cultures where there is a "slut" factor, it's all been about men keeping women as prizes, as evidence of their masculinity and power. A guy accumulates beautiful wives and they sleep only with him and the number of wives indicate his powerful position. However, if said wives sleep with other men, then the husband there loses points in masculinity. He can't "keep" the wives, other *better* men are luring them away. Putting it another way, there's no prestige for a guy who is with a woman who will sleep with anyone. He's nothing special if she'll sleep with anyone, is he?

Hence, we end up with the slut factor--created by men to discourage women from sleeping around and, thus, helping to maintain their masculine pride. It's a way of making sure that if the woman sleeps around, it doesn't reflect on the husband; just like if she doesn't produce a child. It must be her fault not his--she's damaged goods. However, just as the word "slut" was created to take away the power of a sexually active woman to immaculate men (to make them feel "not special"), so the word, once in the system, is freely used by women who need to feel superior. A woman sees a girl who is prettier, sexier and richer than her--well, "she's a slut!" allows that woman to feel superior to this girl.

By the way, my crowd has always been the geek/nerd crowd and I *never* heard that word used by any girls or guys in my group...probably because they'd all have been grateful to have slutty guys/girls to have sex with and who the fuck cares if they're sleeping around! But I notice the word thrown around a lot on reality t.v. shows. I kinda think that indicates the level of intelligence that birthed this term and keeps it alive for the sour-grapes purpose of feeling superior.

 

[3113]

I think its cos humans are polygynous, male harem animals, like gorillas, and some chimps. But we share the bonobo's proimscuous nature too.

So it's biological. So fuck.

Apples and oranges to compared Gorillas and Chimps:

"Adult male gorillas weigh about twice as much as a female. That is because of the advantages in owning a harem of females so a larger male can keep other gorillas at bay. But chimpanzees don't compete and sex with the females is shared. There is an alpha chimp who takes more sexual favors but he doesn't monopolize the females and the others also take their turn. Since there is less competition for a troop of females with chimpanzees there is no evolutionary pressure to be larger and besides it is a benefit for climbing trees not to be so big."

We are more like chimps with alpha males ruling the roost and getting more sex--but not running off or withholding from other males. We are not like gorillas who have a single male "king" who keeps all other males at bay and are surrounded only by females.

 

[NoJo]

Apples and oranges to compared Gorillas and Chimps:


We are more like chimps with alpha males ruling the roost and getting more sex--but not running off or withholding from other males. We are not like gorillas who have a single male "king" who keeps all other males at bay and are surrounded only by females.

What do you mean, "we"? Societies with male harems are common, in fact, if you count them up, MOST common. Okay, not the society you and I live in.

You'll find this graph interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:POLYGYNY.JPG

 

[christabelll]

Oh lets not stop there...
Go back even further before the Destruction of the Goddess and the Emergence of the God...
Women painted their hands and feet red to indicate sexual maturity and the goddess given right to have pleasure with a man... (hmm wonder where the red light district came from) hence the term Scarlet Woman. For millenium before the rise of judaism, christianity and moslem religions, Women willingly offered and gave their bodies to men, because they KNEW that without willing access to the fount of life - men turned into warring ravening beasts...

In General sex has been corrupted and villified with the fall of the goddess as a means to control womens direct and indisputable link with creation.
They are termed sluts if they like anything that feels good.
Ther are termed whores if they sleep with more than one man over the course of their lifetime...

Hmm I must be a slut and a whore... who happens to adore the goddess
I prefer the green man how ever as - I know he will keep up with me > LOL

 

[christabelll]

And let us not forget the typecasting we have for men...

They are not manly if they don't fuck their first girl by 16.
They are not manly if they dont have at least 7 women with whom to fornicate with by they time they are 20.
They are considered men only if they can claim monstrous proportions and divine ability to give orgasms... (Even if they lie and make it all up).

They are not considered whores if they have more than one partner.
They are not considered sluts if they actually like more than the missionary position.

They are considered lucky bastards and perverts instead LOL...

The Victorians did more to send sex underground than any other.
Even with the advent of sexual liberation the people still live under the contrived morals of an era come and gone.

I say -
If it harm none - no foul!

 

[dr_mabeuse]

What do you mean, "we"? Societies with male harems are common, in fact, if you count them up, MOST common. Okay, not the society you and I live in.

You'll find this graph interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:POLYGYNY.JPG

I noticed by your Av you've taken up the harem lifetsyle. How's that working out for you, Joe?

 

[Guest]

I noticed by your Av you've taken up the harem lifetsyle. How's that working out for you, Joe?

BWAH!

 

[Stella_Omega]

I noticed by your Av you've taken up the harem lifetsyle. How's that working out for you, Joe?

He's the Big Man in purdah!

 

[Varian P]

For millenium before the rise of judaism, christianity and moslem religions, Women willingly offered and gave their bodies to men, because they KNEW that without willing access to the fount of life - men turned into warring ravening beasts...

Hi Christabel,

Would you by any chance be able to point me toward some reference that discusses this? It's fabulously germaine to my current work-in-progress.

 

[NoJo]

I noticed by your Av you've taken up the harem lifetsyle. How's that working out for you, Joe?

It's perfect. I get sex as often as I want. I think my next time is the 18th of November.

 

[rgraham666]

An old bit from Hollywood Squares.

Player: I'll take Paul Lynde for the block.

Announcer: Paul. The custom of having more than one wife is dying out in the world. Why?

Paul Lynde: (Trademark Paul Lynde snark) Fatigue.

 

[3113]

What do you mean, "we"? Societies with male harems are common, in fact, if you count them up, MOST common. Okay, not the society you and I live in.

I didn't say they weren't common. What I meant was that we don't have societies where men stay ONLY WITH WOMEN and eschew other males. THAT is the Gorilla. He doesn't LIKE other males and will kill them rather than let them near his family.

That's hardly the same as an alpha male who lets his women wander about and who, HIMSELF, interacts with other males, and simply gets mad if guys try to hit on his ladies and undermine his power. Hence, we are more like CHIMPS--we do, after all, share a 98% genetic similarly to them. We DO NOT share as much of a genetic similarity to Gorillas.

Show me a chart with a high percentage of human societies where a single male lives only with other women and kicks out all his male off-spring while running off any other males who come near....and THEN we'll talk about how similar we are to gorillas (and no, weird Mormon cults in Colorado don't count).

 

[BlackShanglan]

By the way, my crowd has always been the geek/nerd crowd and I *never* heard that word used by any girls or guys in my group...probably because they'd all have been grateful to have slutty guys/girls to have sex with and who the fuck cares if they're sleeping around! But I notice the word thrown around a lot on reality t.v. shows. I kinda think that indicates the level of intelligence that birthed this term and keeps it alive for the sour-grapes purpose of feeling superior.

Mmm. Interesting point. Perhaps the propensity of women to attack either other for sexual behavior is proportional to their belief that their primary method of advancement socially / financially is sex. No one likes competition.