The dark side of kindness

[KillerMuffin]

"The desire to help humanity is the hidden desire to control humanity."

It's not an exact quote and I forgot who said it or I would get the exact, but the gist of it is still correct.

Do you agree or disagree? Why or why not?

 

[sufisaint]

True compassion is not always kind...

 

[MissTaken]

"The desire to help humanity is the hidden desire to control humanity."

It's not an exact quote and I forgot who said it or I would get the exact, but the gist of it is still correct.

Do you agree or disagree? Why or why not?

I think it depends on the individual.
Those who perform acts of charity and goodness and feel a need to tell their friends, co workers, etc, are likely seeking control,.

Then, there are those who are natural "helpers." They help as though it is a vocation and do not take "credit."

There are two sides to the coin. (As usual )

 

[Freya]

No matter how it's shrouded in fluff - charity is, in part, a selfish act.

By "helping" others, are people not attempting to mold them to how they feel they should be?

 

[MissTaken]

No matter how it's shrouded in fluff - charity is, in part, a selfish act.

By "helping" others, are people not attempting to mold them to how they feel they should be?

I don't agree.

The person who simply drops off money, food or clothing to a shelter anonymously is not trying to mold anyone.

How could they be?

 

[Freya]

I don't agree.

The person who simply drops off money, food or clothing to a shelter anonymously is not trying to mold anyone.

How could they be?

It's the assumption that those who they are helping are not at the level they should be. They shouldn't be living in a shelter, or wearing those old, hand me down clothes - so we'll dress them up a bit and get them to where they should be.

I'm not saying it's wrong, nor is it wrong to help others - and most likely, those people in the shelter don't want to be there, but if by helping others, it makes a person feel some sense of pride, it therefore makes that act of helping no longer a completely unselfish act. Lots of people help others to boost themselves up somehow, or so that they can then use that charity as a way of looking better to others.

 

[patient1]

I appreciate your quality questions this weekend, KM.

I don't agree. Even if the motives are selfish, as Mark Twain could argue if he were here ( although I have no clue who you are alluding to, either.), it doesn't mean that they are external.

Kindness could simply be an attempt to control oneself, to find inner peace, to appease guilt, to restore self-respect, to walk one's talk & live the convictions.

I think some people are kind because they are happy. I think some people are kind to avoid conflict, so I guess you could call that controlling if you like, but I think that's misleading to characterize cooperative behavior as controlling.I think some people are kind because it's their cultural norm.

 

[MissTaken]

Yes, there are many who build their path to heaven by their charity.

The rich who drop off the clothing that actually can't be used, but feel like it gets them somewhere or soemthing

Anyone who uses their kindness as part of their own ego boost is not sincere.

Then, there are some

who do it

just because that is what they do.

As unconciously as letting the cat out, some engage in altruistic acts. Perhaps, not enough, or this thread wouldn't go anywhere

To do a kindness with no benefit of any kind, including inflating one's ego does happen. In that sense, true kindness exists.

It is just difficult to find it, perhaps because those who are such people don't broadcast their kindnesses.

 

[crappie master]

"The desire to help humanity is the hidden desire to control humanity."

It's not an exact quote and I forgot who said it or I would get the exact, but the gist of it is still correct.

Do you agree or disagree? Why or why not?

For some people that might be true,butI just don't believe that it is true of everyone.
When stated as an absolute I'm going to have disagree.

 

[Freya]

Yes, there are many who build their path to heaven by their charity.

The rich who drop off the clothing that actually can't be used, but feel like it gets them somewhere or soemthing

Anyone who uses their kindness as part of their own ego boost is not sincere.

Then, there are some

who do it

just because that is what they do.

As unconciously as letting the cat out, some engage in altruistic acts. Perhaps, not enough, or this thread wouldn't go anywhere

To do a kindness with no benefit of any kind, including inflating one's ego does happen. In that sense, true kindness exists.

It is just difficult to find it, perhaps because those who are such people don't broadcast their kindnesses.

You're probably right. I don't always help charities, usually because I'm only about half a step above those in need, but when it comes to acts of kindness with friends and family, I know lots of people who help without even thinking about it - just because it's what you do.

 

[Jimi]

No way...

No matter how it's shrouded in fluff - charity is, in part, a selfish act.

By "helping" others, are people not attempting to mold them to how they feel they should be?

True help is (or should be!) totally neutral - I won't move your furniture, or vet your essay, or give you money for a meal, unless I want to... and because I have done this, I have no "right" to reciprocity... but friends generally do reciprocate.

 

[HeavyStick]

"The desire to help humanity is the hidden desire to control humanity."



Do you agree or disagree? Why or why not?

No, some people can be motivated to do good without a reward.




Wanna pull my finger?

 

[MissTaken]

Re: No way...

True help is (or should be!) totally neutral - I won't move your furniture, or vet your essay, or give you money for a meal, unless I want to... and because I have done this, I have no "right" to reciprocity... but friends generally do reciprocate.

My dear ole mum surprised me with a brand new , much needed microwave yesterday.

Why?

Because she could and I needed it.


for my mom!

 

[Freya]

Re: No way...

True help is (or should be!) totally neutral - I won't move your furniture, or vet your essay, or give you money for a meal, unless I want to... and because I have done this, I have no "right" to reciprocity... but friends generally do reciprocate.

All I really meant, was that most people do it because it makes them feel good about themselves. And of course, there's those who do it so that someone is indebted to them for it.

And again, it's not that it's bad thing to help others, even if the result is to make you feel better along with them, it's just very rare that people do it unconsciously, for no reason whatsoever.

For example - I have two friends, who are probably my best friends. With R. and I, we go back and forth between helping each other. It's so natural that we no longer think about it - her car has died, I drive her places - I have no money for food, she brings some over, etc etc. We don't do it to feel better, or for that other person to owe us - we just do it. Granted, in the back of our minds there might be the thought that it will all come around at some point, but it's not an issue as to when or how. With my other friend S., it always as if there's a scorecard. not that she's unwilling to help - she does quite often, but it'll be mentioned again after the fact, or subtle hints dropped about how nice she was to have done whatever she did. I just think more people are like her, than the other way.

 

[Rhys]

In the words of my Contracts professor "I would suggest to you, that even Mother Theresa did it for herself"

Ergo, there is no True Altruism. But, since no one's motives are truely pure, you have to look at the matter of intent. There is a weird thing where you know you can't be what a person wants and needs, so you make a sacrifice. You want them around for all the selfish reasons, but you want them to be happy as well. You love them enough to push them away and to the thing/person/whatever you think they need or want, because you cared enough about them to try to let them go.

intent is all that there is.

 

[MissTaken]

Intent is the crux of hte matter.

Again, there may be someone who helps unconciously, with no other intent than to do what they do.

I do believe in pure altruism.

I also believe that in this day and age, that sort of altruism is often met with skeptiscm.

Others wonder what the "helper's" motives are. That can make doing the things you do, difficult and leaving a bitter taste in one's mouth.

 

[Aquila]

Well now you've found my motivation to be a dark tyrant. I want to help you.

 

[Luminary]

The is nothing wrong with being kind.
It gives it own reward.....

 

[Shaq]

Word to luminary.

It's not selfish to feel good for being charitable. If someone is being kind to control a person then they aren't being kind.

True compassion is geniune altruism. The intrinsic benefits people may get from it just illustrate how rewarding being kind can be.

 

[Lancecastor]

I disagree with the statement.

There are lots of people who donate their time, goods, knowledge and efforts to help others without looking for credits in return.

If you call the good feeling you get from doing a good deed "selfish" then I'd suggest that generally speaking, people like that are living their lives in darkness.

The Red Cross, Doctors Without Borders, The Salvation Army...anyone who's seen those and other like minded orgs in action would be hard pressed to call their motives selfish.

Then again, given that the tone of the GB is essentially cynical, selfish, bitter and negative a great deal of the time (reflective of the online personalities of the majority of the Top Ten Posters), it wouldn't surprise me if several tried to float the notion that the Red Cross et al are selfish orgs....to which I'd say: "Enjoy your darkness; I prefer to live in the light, thanks."

Lance "glass half full" Castor

 

[Jimi]

Fuckin EH! BeaverSpear!

I disagree with the statement.

There are lots of people who donate their time, goods, knowledge and efforts to help others without looking for credits in return...

If you call the good feeling you get from doing a good deed "selfish" then I'd suggest that generally speaking, people like that are living their lives in darkness...

Then again, given that the tone of the GB is essentially cynical, selfish, bitter and negative a great deal of the time (reflective of the online personalities of the majority of the Top Ten Posters), it wouldn't surprise me if several tried to float the notion that the Red Cross et al are selfish orgs....to which I'd say: "Enjoy your darkness; I prefer to live in the light, thanks."

Lance "glass half full" Castor

So what if one gets "fished-in" once in awhile... the majority of us Earthly drones are good folks, who get a buzz from a friendly smile, a "Thanks!" or whatever..

MOST Excellent, Dude!

 

[Pyper]

I'm not saying it's wrong, nor is it wrong to help others - and most likely, those people in the shelter don't want to be there, but if by helping others, it makes a person feel some sense of pride, it therefore makes that act of helping no longer a completely unselfish act. Lots of people help others to boost themselves up somehow, or so that they can then use that charity as a way of looking better to others.

This is interesting, allow me to play devil's advocate. So if a person anonymously made contributions to the poor, but didn't enjoy it (in other words, it did not give him a sense of pride, or he was indifferent to how it made him feel), would he then be completely selfless? Would he qualify for the model of helping without trying to control?

 

[caraliza]

World improvement = world control?

What's wrong with wanting to control the world? As long as it's this way:

"Consciously or unconsciously, every one of us does render some service or other. If we cultivate the habit of doing this service deliberately, our desire for service will steadily grow stronger, and will make, not only our own happiness, but that of the world at large."–Mahatma Gandhi


And then this doesn't make any sense to me, sufisaint:

"True compassion is not always kind ..." ?

When is true compassion not kind?

compassion -- n 1: a deep awareness of and sympathy for another's suffering [syn: compassionateness] 2: the humane quality of understanding the suffering of others and wanting to do something about it [syn: pity]

kindness -- \Kind"ness\, n. [From Kind. a.] 1. The state or quality of being kind ...
Syn: Good will; benignity; grace; tenderness; compassion; humanity; clemency; mildness; gentleness; goodness; generosity; beneficence; favor.

 

[Freya]

This is interesting, allow me to play devil's advocate. So if a person anonymously made contributions to the poor, but didn't enjoy it (in other words, it did not give him a sense of pride, or he was indifferent to how it made him feel), would he then be completely selfless? Would he qualify for the model of helping without trying to control?

Why else would they be doing it? If they are doing it because they think they have to, or because they are "expected" to, or are being forced somehow into it, then it negates the whole notion of charity doesn't it?

Maybe selfish was the wrong term to use, because it conjures up such negative connotations. I'm not sure what other word I could use - but all I meant is that there are very few people who do charity just because that's the way they are. Generally it's a pride thing - I'm helping others, and that makes me feel good about myself - along with (in some cases) a desire to help those less fortunate.

 

[caraliza]

Maybe selfish was the wrong term to use, because it conjures up such negative connotations. I'm not sure what other word I could use - but all I meant is that there are very few people who do charity just because that's the way they are.

How about if one of the reasons for the kind act is because you wish to become a better person? In that case, then you're saying that the desire to be a better person is "the dark side of kindness"? Because you're accomplishing self-betterment *and* a kind act?

I don't buy that.

Generally it's a pride thing - I'm helping others, and that makes me feel good about myself - along with (in some cases) a desire to help those less fortunate. [/QUOTE]

I guess the issue might be: Is it good pride or bad pride? Or, in other words, is it self-esteem or vanity? I mean, are you doing the kindness because you value generosity and community responsibility in yourself, or is it because you want others to value you for your generosity and community responsibility?

I don't think it really matters in the long run, unless you later use the kindness against someone. But that's another issue ...