The Dance

[Angeline]

Thank you, Ms. Angeline. Friends?

Sure I'm a friendly person. But I gotta tell you I think you're missing Under Your Spell's point. I don't think she so much wanted you to change your poem as she was trying to give you helpful feedback. There's a core of people here (and as you might guess I'm one of them) who strongly believe in listening to each other's feedback and learning and growing as writers from it. If someone doesn't want to change stuff that's no big deal: I don't take a suggestion myself unless I think it's helpful. But she was really giving you good advice. And that's nothing you need to apologize for, but maybe it should be food for thought.

 

[jinxybaby]

I like it

I actually like the poem and screw those who don't even have a degree in literature and think they are so freaking awesome and right about everything.


UNDERYOURSPELL- You should go back to school and learn how to use adjectives. There's a big difference from saying lust to intense lust. It's like saying "That looks like a delicious cake" to "That chocolate fudge goodness, from fresh out the oven, warmed my heart and bones from such a frigid day and made my mouth water." There's a difference more than just cutting the words. Limit the words and you risk limiting the emotion you are trying to show. I went to college for English and had straight A's since I first started school and think you are full of crap. Just because it's not what you would have wrote or isn't your style that doesn't mean it isn't any good.

Poetry is a way of self expression and can be dramatized if the writer chooses. Critiquing is fine as long as you make sense and know what the heck you are talking about.

Thank you and if you disagree then kick rocks...because I don't give two cents.

 

[bigbaddad]

Sure I'm a friendly person. But I gotta tell you I think you're missing Under Your Spell's point. I don't think she so much wanted you to change your poem as she was trying to give you helpful feedback. There's a core of people here (and as you might guess I'm one of them) who strongly believe in listening to each other's feedback and learning and growing as writers from it. If someone doesn't want to change stuff that's no big deal: I don't take a suggestion myself unless I think it's helpful. But she was really giving you good advice. And that's nothing you need to apologize for, but maybe it should be food for thought.

As I said...I didn't dismiss her advice...I just didn't, at this time, implement it. There's a difference. Don't think that if someone took the time to offer advice that I won't consider it. Thanks again, I do appreciate everyone's input.

 

[butters]

I actually like the poem and screw those who don't even have a degree in literature and think they are so freaking awesome and right about everything.


UNDERYOURSPELL- You should go back to school and learn how to use adjectives. There's a big difference from saying lust to intense lust. It's like saying "That looks like a delicious cake" to "That chocolate fudge goodness, from fresh out the oven, warmed my heart and bones from such a frigid day and made my mouth water." There's a difference more than just cutting the words. Limit the words and you risk limiting the emotion you are trying to show. I went to college for English and had straight A's since I first started school and think you are full of crap. Just because it's not what you would have wrote or isn't your style that doesn't mean it isn't any good.

Poetry is a way of self expression and can be dramatized if the writer chooses. Critiquing is fine as long as you make sense and know what the heck you are talking about.

Thank you and if you disagree then kick rocks...because I don't give two cents.

my my - you saved your first post for this? colour me amazed

firstly, one doesn't need to have gone to college or university to be able to read, appreciate, and write poetry.

secondly, if you profess to have done so, your tone here

I actually like the poem and screw those who don't even have a degree in literature and think they are so freaking awesome and right about everything.

and here

and if you disagree then kick rocks...because I don't give two cents

kind of belies that. having said that, you sound quite passionate about defending the poem (or would that be its author?) so i'm guessing there's something else going on behind the scenes. now, we tend to be fairly polite to one another here, and your inflammatory comments don't really move the discussion on. it is absolutely fine to disagree, but there are ways of phrasing things that help a debate - you may wish to consider 'returning to school' yourself to gain that insight....

p.s a degree in literature doth not a poet make. a poet is born.

 

[jinxybaby]

Ha

Really? As if I didn't know that. I am a natural poet and have rewards for my work. I'm a writer and it's freedom of speech so I can say what I want. Like I said before, limiting words can limit emotions shown in your work. If it was an actual critique that was helped then it would have been fine but it wasn't.

Trust me dollface, I was being nice. I tamed my response. Education and degrees do not limit ones feeling or emotions so as for your comment on my tone, I could care less. I've seen professors and doctors swear so you do not make any sense pointing out my attitude.

I'm passionate about art in general. If I feel that someone was wronged I will say so. I have no problem telling anyone what I feel or how I feel about them. As regards about the author, it's the writing I was defending.

Another thing about my education. I went to school to study English so that I could teach it and show my students the freedom of expressing themselves and finding themselves through writing.

One last thing. I will debate as I want and how I want. If you don't like it then you can ignore it. Trust me doll, my feelings won't be hurt either way.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

I wasn't advising him to cut his adjectives just to find a way around having too many gerunds in the whole piece. editting poetry and cutting away the dead wood actually lifts it to a higher plane and if you knew anything about poetry at all you would appreciate that point. Up till now I have been polite because that's how I was brought up to be, other people may not have been taught manners and so are inclined to insult strangers in an uncouth and foul mouth way it's not their fault lesser breeding will always out. Anyone can take a piece of prose and put in line breaks and call it poetry, others prefer to edit and edit again until its beauty flys from the page.

 

[Angeline]

Really? As if I didn't know that. I am a natural poet and have rewards for my work. I'm a writer and it's freedom of speech so I can say what I want. Like I said before, limiting words can limit emotions shown in your work. If it was an actual critique that was helped then it would have been fine but it wasn't.

Trust me dollface, I was being nice. I tamed my response. Education and degrees do not limit ones feeling or emotions so as for your comment on my tone, I could care less. I've seen professors and doctors swear so you do not make any sense pointing out my attitude.

I'm passionate about art in general. If I feel that someone was wronged I will say so. I have no problem telling anyone what I feel or how I feel about them. As regards about the author, it's the writing I was defending.

Another thing about my education. I went to school to study English so that I could teach it and show my students the freedom of expressing themselves and finding themselves through writing.

One last thing. I will debate as I want and how I want. If you don't like it then you can ignore it. Trust me doll, my feelings won't be hurt either way.

I have degrees in literature and awards. And I bet my publications list is both longer and better than yours. But pissing contests are so silly, don't you think?

 

[Angeline]

Really? As if I didn't know that. I am a natural poet and have rewards for my work. I'm a writer and it's freedom of speech so I can say what I want. Like I said before, limiting words can limit emotions shown in your work. If it was an actual critique that was helped then it would have been fine but it wasn't.

Trust me dollface, I was being nice. I tamed my response. Education and degrees do not limit ones feeling or emotions so as for your comment on my tone, I could care less. I've seen professors and doctors swear so you do not make any sense pointing out my attitude.

I'm passionate about art in general. If I feel that someone was wronged I will say so. I have no problem telling anyone what I feel or how I feel about them. As regards about the author, it's the writing I was defending.

Another thing about my education. I went to school to study English so that I could teach it and show my students the freedom of expressing themselves and finding themselves through writing.

One last thing. I will debate as I want and how I want. If you don't like it then you can ignore it. Trust me doll, my feelings won't be hurt either way.

PS Been an English teacher and an editor. And a senior editor and a managing editor. So go get em, tiger.

 

[hmmnmm]

Ange & Annie: you're making me laugh. Was just happening by and the word that popped in my mind was 'manners' - the lack of them. And lo, I see it has already been mentioned. What put me into a momentary perplexity (not a great big double purple perplexity, just a pesky, quizzical, buzzing fly kind of perplexity - heck maybe perplexity isn't even the best word - still on the first cup of coffee), but apparently people can make it all the way to and then through institutions of higher learning without learning manners. Then again I don't keep up with contemporary culture too much. Seems like self-expression is a fast-growing trend and being favored over the practice of good manners, especially in public. Maybe if we as a civilization can wake up in time this new phenomenal thingamajig they're calling self-expression can be stopped, or at least discouraged, suppressed, and then it can be greatly stifled; because that's what the manners do, they suppress self-expression, so I think it's high time to bring back manners, if it isn't already too late. Now it's possible that because of its widespread popularity, that there's been an underground Jersey Shore University development, that is beginning to appear in various human guises among us earthlings. If that is the case, well then it may be really too late, and we could really be just plain fucked. Well I'll mosey on now. Wishing a beautiful day upon all.

 

[Angeline]

Ange & Annie: you're making me laugh. Was just happening by and the word that popped in my mind was 'manners' - the lack of them. And lo, I see it has already been mentioned. What put me into a momentary perplexity (not a great big double purple perplexity, just a pesky, quizzical, buzzing fly kind of perplexity - heck maybe perplexity isn't even the best word - still on the first cup of coffee), but apparently people can make it all the way to and then through institutions of higher learning without learning manners. Then again I don't keep up with contemporary culture too much. Seems like self-expression is a fast-growing trend and being favored over the practice of good manners, especially in public. Maybe if we as a civilization can wake up in time this new phenomenal thingamajig they're calling self-expression can be stopped, or at least discouraged, suppressed, and then it can be greatly stifled; because that's what the manners do, they suppress self-expression, so I think it's high time to bring back manners, if it isn't already too late. Now it's possible that because of its widespread popularity, that there's been an underground Jersey Shore University development, that is beginning to appear in various human guises among us earthlings. If that is the case, well then it may be really too late, and we could really be just plain fucked. Well I'll mosey on now. Wishing a beautiful day upon all.

And to you, too, my dear friend.

I should have been nicer but I had just awakened lol and was getting ready for my morning write, so I wasn't in the best of moods. But the argument that passion (or poetic inspiration or whatever one calls it) somehow equals poetic license and absolves a writer of needing to revise or learn or even correct typos has always bugged the hell outta me. It's a stupid and specious argument. It just is!

 

[hmmnmm]

And to you, too, my dear friend.

I should have been nicer but I had just awakened lol and was getting ready for my morning write, so I wasn't in the best of moods. But the argument that passion (or poetic inspiration or whatever one calls it) somehow equals poetic license and absolves a writer of needing to revise or learn or even correct typos has always bugged the hell outta me. It's a stupid and specious argument. It just is!

Actually I can understand some of the sentiment. I was once of the mindset that, "this is how I wrote this thing and I'm not changing it" and I have to say there is something about that way that is charming: one of many exercises which I haven't really done for a long time - whatever is put down stays that way - a certain feel of immediacy. I guess what stopped that was when I discovered how much fun it is to play around - with lines and words and try anything that comes to mind, so now I've gone to other end where I view nothing as really finished. Any single word or line or paragraph or sentence someone from any disciplinary level might suggest alterating or whatever, my only response must be, "that's certainly possible, because I'm still learning and I hope to always be learning." but mostly just fucking around and having tons of fun doing so. That's the main thing. Lose that and it's all over. Gotta go allll the way back to the beginning.

hey! just had a brand new idea! Oh yeah!

 

[butters]

Really? As if I didn't know that. I am a natural poet and have rewards for my work. I'm a writer and it's freedom of speech so I can say what I want. Like I said before, limiting words can limit emotions shown in your work. If it was an actual critique that was helped then it would have been fine but it wasn't.

Trust me dollface, I was being nice. I tamed my response. Education and degrees do not limit ones feeling or emotions so as for your comment on my tone, I could care less. I've seen professors and doctors swear so you do not make any sense pointing out my attitude.

I'm passionate about art in general. If I feel that someone was wronged I will say so. I have no problem telling anyone what I feel or how I feel about them. As regards about the author, it's the writing I was defending.

Another thing about my education. I went to school to study English so that I could teach it and show my students the freedom of expressing themselves and finding themselves through writing.

One last thing. I will debate as I want and how I want. If you don't like it then you can ignore it. Trust me doll, my feelings won't be hurt either way.

ok, as a "natural poet", perhaps you'd care to share some of your erudite works with us - but on another thread. this one was intended to display bigbaddad's write and resulting comments about his creation.

passion's good. ill-manners are not. this is a moderated board, and whilst i am perfectly willing to tolerate the high-blood of the talented in debate, i won't allow a succession of bombastic, rude posts to bring down the quality we're actually quite proud of here. so, please debate away, but with consideration for your fellow posters... to a degree, at any rate

 

[UnderYourSpell]

One can be incredibly insulting without losing ones manners *see above* actually I feel sorry for bigbaddad (unless he's also jinxybaby then I don't) because his big mouthed fan has just sunk his boat

\o waves to Tim

 

[Angeline]

Actually I can understand some of the sentiment. I was once of the mindset that, "this is how I wrote this thing and I'm not changing it" and I have to say there is something about that way that is charming: one of many exercises which I haven't really done for a long time - whatever is put down stays that way - a certain feel of immediacy. I guess what stopped that was when I discovered how much fun it is to play around - with lines and words and try anything that comes to mind, so now I've gone to other end where I view nothing as really finished. Any single word or line or paragraph or sentence someone from any disciplinary level might suggest alterating or whatever, my only response must be, "that's certainly possible, because I'm still learning and I hope to always be learning." but mostly just fucking around and having tons of fun doing so. That's the main thing. Lose that and it's all over. Gotta go allll the way back to the beginning.

hey! just had a brand new idea! Oh yeah!

I'm pretty sure that ee cummings and WB Yeats and Edgar Allen Poe and Billy Collins and all the poets we love were/are "natural" and had/have "passion." Those qualities and improvement ain't mutually exclusive. To think so is typical of young or new writers and it may feel right at the time, but it doesn't make you a better writer. But then people can either learn or let their denial calcify.

Off to Nano. I want to write another 1k or so today.

 

[bigbaddad]

One can be incredibly insulting without losing ones manners *see above* actually I feel sorry for bigbaddad (unless he's also jinxybaby then I don't) because his big mouthed fan has just sunk his boat

\o waves to Tim

@UnderYourSpell....I always speak for myself, and have no need to hide who I am. I took your advice, applying it to other works. I just chose not to use it here. I do not consider the fact that I didn't use it here to be a moratorium on your advice. Nor do I consider my decision not to apply it here to mean it makes me less of a poet or my work a lesser work. You are entitled to take it as you wish. I don't mind or care either way. I AM appreciative of the fact that you took your time to comment...and would hope my inaction in this instance would not prevent you from further critique of future postings. I have been nothing but polite and respectful here. Please afford me the same consideration. Take care.

 

[hmmnmm]

One can be incredibly insulting without losing ones manners *see above* actually I feel sorry for bigbaddad (unless he's also jinxybaby then I don't) because his big mouthed fan has just sunk his boat

\o waves to Tim

Well I'm not exactly the disputatious sort. People want to discuss or even bicker over poetry or poems or who's the better poet with the better poems or so on, well let em go at it, because fightin just ain't my bag.

But talking rude to my gal...

 

[bigbaddad]

I'm pretty sure that ee cummings and WB Yeats and Edgar Allen Poe and Billy Collins and all the poets we love were/are "natural" and had/have "passion." Those qualities and improvement ain't mutually exclusive. To think so is typical of young or new writers and it may feel right at the time, but it doesn't make you a better writer. But then people can either learn or let their denial calcify.

Off to Nano. I want to write another 1k or so today.

I would ask you to afford me a modicum of respect and not chose to berate me as a writer or a person because, in this one instance, I chose to accept a critique, but not implement suggested changes. I don't put down anyone or diregard or disrespect who they are and where they come from. I am somewhat offended by the insinuation of some that, because I chose not to make a change now, that I am somehow less of a writer/poet/whatever for having made that choice. I respect every single person that has commented, whether I agreed with them or not...and, if you read back, you will find I have not insulted anyone, or insinuated that they are any less of a person/writer/poet/whatever for having offered me a critique. Good luck on your future postings and writings.

 

[Angeline]

I would ask you to afford me a modicum of respect and not chose to berate me as a writer or a person because, in this one instance, I chose to accept a critique, but not implement suggested changes. I don't put down anyone or diregard or disrespect who they are and where they come from. I am somewhat offended by the insinuation of some that, because I chose not to make a change now, that I am somehow less of a writer/poet/whatever for having made that choice. I respect every single person that has commented, whether I agreed with them or not...and, if you read back, you will find I have not insulted anyone, or insinuated that they are any less of a person/writer/poet/whatever for having offered me a critique. Good luck on your future postings and writings.

You're wrong to take it personally. I don't intend it that way at all. I do however believe that unwillingness to listen and learn doesn't promote growth. I'm not saying you personally are unwilling. For all I know you revise your writing all the time and think it's a great idea, but I don't think the poem you posted here is evidence of that.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

@UnderYourSpell....I always speak for myself, and have no need to hide who I am. I took your advice, applying it to other works. I just chose not to use it here. I do not consider the fact that I didn't use it here to be a moratorium on your advice. Nor do I consider my decision not to apply it here to mean it makes me less of a poet or my work a lesser work. You are entitled to take it as you wish. I don't mind or care either way. I AM appreciative of the fact that you took your time to comment...and would hope my inaction in this instance would not prevent you from further critique of future postings. I have been nothing but polite and respectful here. Please afford me the same consideration. Take care.

Was I being disrespectful? No not to you I wasn't but your fan doesn't treat me with respect so shouldn't expect the same consideration. In fact we were about to get along from a somewhat bumpy start but then out of the blue some oaf started shouting and hurling insults in my direction, so as I said she's rather sunk your boat because this incident will for a long time be in my mind (and many others) whenever you post from now on. Saints preserve us from over zealous fans with big gobs

*aside do they have gobs in America? oh well google it under English slang*

 

[bigbaddad]

You're wrong to take it personally. I don't intend it that way at all. I do however believe that unwillingness to listen and learn doesn't promote growth. I'm not saying you personally are unwilling. For all I know you revise your writing all the time and think it's a great idea, but I don't think the poem you posted here is evidence of that.

Your opinion on this poem...clearly you don't care for it..has been noted. Thank you for letting me know.

 

[bigbaddad]

Was I being disrespectful? No not to you I wasn't but your fan doesn't treat me with respect so shouldn't expect the same consideration. In fact we were about to get along from a somewhat bumpy start but then out of the blue some oaf started shouting and hurling insults in my direction, so as I said she's rather sunk your boat because this incident will for a long time be in my mind (and many others) whenever you post from now on. Saints preserve us from over zealous fans with big gobs

*aside do they have gobs in America? oh well google it under English slang*

I respect your decision on this. And I know what a gob is. Take care.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Oh and by the way as jinxybaby obviously made the name just to hurl insults and the use of the words 'doll face' which I've seen her use before I've more than a good idea who it is ...... she just can't help herself bringing more mayhem to this board

 

[UnderYourSpell]

I respect your decision on this. And I know what a gob is. Take care.

What decision? and as for what you said to Angeline I don't think a single person has said they 'don't like' your poem just that they don't agree with your editting

 

[butters]

bbd, how about posting another poem if you'd care to hear comments on its makeup, or - if you'd prefer - visit some of the other writings to be found here and offer your own thoughts, whatever they may be? the fastest and surest way to get to know members here is to read them and offer your own opinions. it also helps keep the forum moving and prevents it from getting bogged down in what are, ultimately, unrewarding exchanges. thankyou for remaining polite in your responses here.

 

[bigbaddad]

bbd, how about posting another poem if you'd care to hear comments on its makeup, or - if you'd prefer - visit some of the other writings to be found here and offer your own thoughts, whatever they may be? the fastest and surest way to get to know members here is to read them and offer your own opinions. it also helps keep the forum moving and prevents it from getting bogged down in what are, ultimately, unrewarding exchanges. thankyou for remaining polite in your responses here.

Will post another..for what it is. As always, comments to it are welcome.