The Bratty Thread

[MisterSir]

Mediocre's one step below average, the mildest word you can use to say somebody's bad at something. I'm a mediocre conversionalist, for instance.

 

[minx1]

However, I do have times (rare, thankfully) were I am strongly defiant. Without question it is a act against submission itself and not my PYL. Especially in the beginning of the relationship but even now I struggle. I would think many pyls struggle with perfect obedience. We are human. Does the fact I am defiant occasionally make me less of a submissive? I don't think so. Behaving like a brat can be seen the same way.

I think you are completely right ES.

I am only talking about how I view myself. Sorry to everyone if I didn't make that clear. I wasn't saying that everyone who acts like a brat now and then is less of a submissive. Who am I to judge?!

Its just for me, I have questioned my submissiveness for a while. This is just one aspect with which I struggle.

I guess we probably all struggle with obeying to different degrees. Its all relative afterall.

I guess a lot comes down to judgements I make about myself and standards I set myself.
And in my particular case, does it make me less submissive? Well honestly, I don't know. maybe not...but maybe yes.
But thats just because I'm not sure about my capacity to be submissive sometimes.


lol sorry I am tired and its way past my bed time.

I will probably come back in the morning and explian it much better!

 

[minx1]

Mediocre's one step below average, the mildest word you can use to say somebody's bad at something. I'm a mediocre conversionalist, for instance.

i thought it came from the medius or middle....

To be moderate at something.

and thats how I was applying it

 

[StrayKat]

i thought it came from the medius or middle....

To be moderate at something.

I though mediocre was exactly the same thing as average, only one comes from French/Latin and the other one from English.
Since none is my native language I could be wrong.

 

[MisterSir]

I've only ever heard it used in the mildly pejorative sense.

 

[StrayKat]

In my country its used in the same sense as "average" only when one wants to sound very educated and fancy

 

[SimonBrooke]

In my country its used in the same sense as "average" only when one wants to sound very educated and fancy

You're completely right as to etymology and MisterSir is completely right about usage. That's the nature of English - because it has plundered so many words from so many different languages it has a veritable cornucopia of words for every purpose, and consequently it can have very subtle understood differences of meaning between words which have the same literal meaning. So literally, 'average' and 'mediocre' are the same, but in usage 'average' is usually value neutral and 'mediocre' is usually negative.

To say someone is of average intelligence is to say he's neither clever nor stupid; to say his intelligence is mediocre is to imply that he's a fool.

 

[StrayKat]

That's the nature of English - because it has plundered so many words from so many different languages it has a veritable cornucopia of words for every purpose, and consequently it can have very subtle understood differences of meaning between words which have the same literal meaning.

Indeed.
That is why we who speak English as second or third language find sometimes bit hard to express ourselves and not be misunderstood. Especially online.

The same word exist in my language (of course bit modified) but actually has the same meaning and is not very used in common everyday speak.

 

[ataxia.girl]

i don't think i'm a mediocre bottom because i'm a brat, not in the slightest.

 

[ecstaticsub]

Well actually no I'm afraid I wasn't.

But not because of what any PYL has ever said. More my own analysis of myself when it comes to being submissive or at least aspects of it.

But I actually don't see it as a really bad thing to admit to feeling.

To me it says I'm just ok....I don't excel at something.

I am a mediocre cook. I am mediocre gardener. I am even a mediocre friend sometimes! I am less than mediocre at public speaking, and much more than mediocre at lots of things Ido. Its just my own self appraisal I guess. Perhaps sometimes I set the bar too high and am a bit of a perfectionist, but I am also aware of my own limitations and areas I feel i need to improve.

I don't see being mediocre as terribly bad thing. I was never a straight A student....I was average.

But I have learned a lot and I think developed and improved.

This is just something else that I am ok at. There are also some aspects of it that I feel I can improve on.

Sorry, if I misunderstood. I took it as a play on how people say that some people claim to be super perfect submissives who always obey and enjoy every single second of it. I would certainly be mediocre if not way below mediocre if compared to that.

But I, personally have never bothered comparing myself to anyone else. There is no mediocre, or above average or complete failure submissives if we simple don't bother comparing. Doing comparisons are pointless.

This applies to Dominants as well as submissives. There are some PYLs who are more dominant than others.

I think you are completely right ES.

I am only talking about how I view myself. Sorry to everyone if I didn't make that clear. I wasn't saying that everyone who acts like a brat now and then is less of a submissive. Who am I to judge?!

Its just for me, I have questioned my submissiveness for a while. This is just one aspect with which I struggle.

I guess we probably all struggle with obeying to different degrees. Its all relative afterall.

I guess a lot comes down to judgements I make about myself and standards I set myself.
And in my particular case, does it make me less submissive? Well honestly, I don't know. maybe not...but maybe yes.
But thats just because I'm not sure about my capacity to be submissive sometimes.


lol sorry I am tired and its way past my bed time.

I will probably come back in the morning and explian it much better!

I didn't think you ever were referring to brats as less submissives. It was mentioned earlier in this thread



I hope you had a good nights sleep

 

[Homburg]

i will never "tone it down" to spare a Dominants feelings again. They can take my tongue or they can't. i don't spare egos.

This is internet tough guy bullshit. Plain and simple.

If your daddy gets a phone call telling him that his younger brother was just killed in a car accident, are you going to continue to sass, or are you going to tone it the fuck down?

I'm not talking about salving egos. I'm talking about knowing a time and place when a given behaviour is appropriate, and when it is not.

--

You're completely right as to etymology and MisterSir is completely right about usage. That's the nature of English - because it has plundered so many words from so many different languages it has a veritable cornucopia of words for every purpose, and consequently it can have very subtle understood differences of meaning between words which have the same literal meaning. So literally, 'average' and 'mediocre' are the same, but in usage 'average' is usually value neutral and 'mediocre' is usually negative.

To say someone is of average intelligence is to say he's neither clever nor stupid; to say his intelligence is mediocre is to imply that he's a fool.

This is an excellent post from a linguistics standpoint. Rock on, Simon.

 

[00Syd]

This thread is a huge mess, and there is a ton of stuff that needs to be addressed, and I don't know if I have the patience for it. Just, one thing:

I wish we could get past the "bratty little spoiled brat child" definition of the term, because we are talking about ADULTS who obviously (at least its obvious to me) have very, very different motivations, feelings, etc. than a goddamn six year old.

Yes, its easy to go to a dictionary and point to that definition, but we're talking about the BDSM community definition of a "brat" which isn't going to be found anywhere in Merriam Websters. So, lets stop doing that, and try to consider that these "brats" we are discussing might have some more emotional complexity, and intelligence, than a child.

 

[ataxia.girl]

This is internet tough guy bullshit. Plain and simple.

If your daddy gets a phone call telling him that his younger brother was just killed in a car accident, are you going to continue to sass, or are you going to tone it the fuck down?

I'm not talking about salving egos. I'm talking about knowing a time and place when a given behaviour is appropriate, and when it is not.

That is not what i mean AT ALL. i do not sass all the time. In fact i normally do not sass, its not the status quo of our communication by any means. What i mean is that when i do i do not hold back. There is no imaginary line that i am not going to cross.

Like a lot of people i harbor resentments and hurts and anger. Some people use playful banter to sorta kinda let this stuff sneak out. They needle without formally crossing any lines. They push buttons because they want to deal with someone but they are afraid of really laying it out there.

Well i lay it out there and get it out. What i have found is this actually makes it less necessary for me to push buttons and needle in between episodes.

 

[JMohegan]

This thread is a huge mess, and there is a ton of stuff that needs to be addressed, and I don't know if I have the patience for it. Just, one thing:

I wish we could get past the "bratty little spoiled brat child" definition of the term, because we are talking about ADULTS who obviously (at least its obvious to me) have very, very different motivations, feelings, etc. than a goddamn six year old.

Yes, its easy to go to a dictionary and point to that definition, but we're talking about the BDSM community definition of a "brat" which isn't going to be found anywhere in Merriam Websters. So, lets stop doing that, and try to consider that these "brats" we are discussing might have some more emotional complexity, and intelligence, than a child.

Once you chuck the dictionary out the window, there is no commonly held definition of a given word.

This is exactly my point.

I should think it would be obvious from this thread that there is no "BDSM community definition" of brat.

That's why I've asked, Syd, what do you mean when you use the term? What are the defining traits of the brat persona, in an adult, in your view?

 

[ataxia.girl]

From UrbanDictionary.com

brat

A relatively recent development in the BDSM community, a brat is a woman who suggests she is ripe for a submissive sexual encounter, but diliberately and flagrantly torment prospective doms. Brats often dress like young girls, sport Catholic school uniforms or dress like Bratz dolls. Often they band in packs and suggest there is immense pleasure available from the group for the right (and lucky) dominant male. Males must "prove" their dominance to the satisfaction of the group. Most serious BDSM practioners put a premium on total honesty and trust and thus the brat phenomenom has not been welcomed by all.

 

[ownedsubgal]

wow. the times, they are a'changin', lol.

 

[JMohegan]

I have had moments of brattiness and I don't care for them very much. They sometimes surface when i am trying to be playful and momentarily forget where the boundaries of acceptable behaviour lie, but moreso I think that they sometimes appear as an act of defiance.

I wonder sometimes if its an act of defiance against submission as oppose to the Pyl.

I spend a lot of time lately analysing if I am a submissive, to the point of being able to be a satisfactory sub to someone that is. I know its subjective. But sometimes i feel like I fall so short of the mark. And it leaves me wondering that perhaps I want to be a sub more than I am capable of being one.

Anyway I digress. One of the last times I acted this way went like this....I was talking on my way home from work and said something that was a little out of line. He said ''I won't accept that and you know what to do when that's the case.'' And indeed...I did know but instead of just apologising and saying yes Sir, I replied something along the lines of 'ha! I'm in the middle of the street...how's that gonna happen?!''

I was goading. I was annoyed and things felt unfair and there you have it. If I was as submissive as i would like to be... have strived to be I might feel sometimes that things are unfair, but I wouldn't react to them; I would accept them.

I am so definitely not uber sub...I am mediocre sub

Yeah, personally I don't actually care for being perceived as a brat. To me and this is purely my own standard of acceptable behaviour...there is a difference between me being playful and me being a brat.

I just need to work out how and if I can control it. Which again probably brings me back to the whole bigger picture...am i really a submissive, question again.

ETA: and I know that this dynamic works for many and thats really great if thats the case. Its'just that in my case i dont want to find a PYL with who would tolerate it or who would embrace it, for the simple reason that I myself don't think its an acceptable way to behave if I am their submissive.

Minx! Nice to see you again.

I hope you don't mind me saying that this post has me alternating between the desire to hug you, and the desire to slap you upside the head. Since I can't do either, I'll just make a few points and hope you think about them a bit, after you've had some rest.

Point one - sexual orientation is not a better/worse thing. I'm not a sub at all, yet that fact does not make me feel like a failure, or mediocre. Nor does it make me feel superior, or anything else of a qualitative nature. This is a wiring, not a character, issue.

Point two - when it comes to ceding or accepting control, more is not better, less is not worse, and the reverse is also true. The list of areas in which I am totally uninterested in exerting control is long indeed. I have no interest in pretending that a partner is a car, or a slave who has no right to leave, or a woman who needs to be punished, or an adult who defers to me with regard to her career. If this makes me "less domly," that's perfectly fine. Why on earth would I care? I'm not going to pretend to be interested in or satisfied by something, just so I can climb some alleged kink ladder or hierarchy.

Point three - all humans occasionally say things to their partners that they really shouldn't. Everyone gets annoyed, snaps, or slips up at times. I'd bet my house that the guy you were addressing in the middle of the street has been out of bounds sometimes too.

In short - for god's sake, woman. Don't be so hard on yourself.

 

[ataxia.girl]

my brattiness is simply born out of frustration at not having any power in the relationship. People keep talking about maturity but the thing is most "mature" adults have power. In a D/s relationship the power of the s is significantly curtailed and that can sometimes lead to intense frustration. It really gets my goat when D types seem to think it should just be easy to be on the bottom and have no real power to change things. Like you are naturally sub or you aren't. i naturally need a more Dominant partner than myself, it doesn't mean i'm a natural sub and don't get conflicted, confused, and pissed off about the whole thing.

Both Daddy and i agree that if i lived with him 24/7 i would likely be much less bratty. A lot of it is just a need to release pent up hostility and frustration. Getting it all off my chest and out there through a tantrum is cathartic and honestly he enjoys watching the storm but that's not why i do it. i don't do it to amuse him. It just happens.

i'm really not even much of a back-talker but when i get on one watch out.

 

[ataxia.girl]

Point three - all humans occasionally say things to their partners that they really shouldn't. Everyone gets annoyed, snaps, or slips up at times. I'd bet my house that the guy you were addressing in the middle of the street has been out of bounds sometimes too.

i enjoy having one relationship where this is truly not the case. No i would not sass at him if he told me his son just died because i would be genuinely concerned for him, whatever else was going on would cease to matter. In every day interaction though i really can say whatever pops into my brain to him and i do. He does not want a filter. He wants access all the way down to the operating system and he gets it.

 

[BiBunny]

Sorry, if I misunderstood. I took it as a play on how people say that some people claim to be super perfect submissives who always obey and enjoy every single second of it. I would certainly be mediocre if not way below mediocre if compared to that.

But I, personally have never bothered comparing myself to anyone else. There is no mediocre, or above average or complete failure submissives if we simple don't bother comparing. Doing comparisons are pointless.

This applies to Dominants as well as submissives. There are some PYLs who are more dominant than others.

Just because one tries to do the best one can doesn't mean one is trying to convince everyone else one is perfect.

I try to be obedient all the time. My owners proved to me a long time ago, without me having to directly "test" them, that their wills are stronger than mine, and I accept that. So I try to please them. Does that mean I don't screw up? Hardly. I doubt a day goes by where I don't do something stupid. But they know that my intentions are always good, even if my actions are less than stellar at times.

The more I think about it, the more I think my disconnect here may be because of the differences in the mindsets between service-oriented sub types and non-service-oriented sub types. I notice many of the people in this thread who are calling themselves "brats" are the same people who have said in other threads that they're not service-oriented.

Maybe that's a lot of the difference and the reason I can't wrap my head around it.

 

[ownedsubgal]

The more I think about it, the more I think my disconnect here may be because of the differences in the mindsets between service-oriented sub types and non-service-oriented sub types. I notice many of the people in this thread who are calling themselves "brats" are the same people who have said in other threads that they're not service-oriented.

Maybe that's a lot of the difference and the reason I can't wrap my head around it.

yep, that is what i'm thinking also, and why it remains such a confounding phenomena for me too. when i think submissive, i think inclined to obey, inclined to surrender, inclined to please. if someone identifies as submissive but has none of those inclinations, or rarely has such inclinations, it confuses me.

what i do understand is the need for active dominance and control from one's partner. i just know that there are many ways to feel and experience that without all the pushing and testing and misbehavior that bratting implies.

 

[callinectes]

I have never understood why we spend so much try to define labels and then having to deal with the hurt feelings that ineveitibly follow. As long as you and your PYL are good with it, why does anyone else need to give a flying fuck about it? Some things described in this thread would result in my being shown the door. On the other end of the spectrum, some of the things I do and say would earn OSG a severe beating. *shrug* I just don't get the point of these discussions.

 

[ownedsubgal]

my brattiness is simply born out of frustration at not having any power in the relationship. People keep talking about maturity but the thing is most "mature" adults have power. In a D/s relationship the power of the s is significantly curtailed and that can sometimes lead to intense frustration.

ataxia, do you know why your lack of power in your relationship causes you frustration? this bit just really jumped out at me and made me wonder, as being powerless in general has always made me feel "meh, such is life," and being powerless in my relationship makes me feel the deepest sense of relief and calm. it's like, i just don't have to worry about it. it's not on my shoulders, and i don't have to pretend like i'm capable and normal and all that crap. it doesn't mean that things are easy on this side...but that's a whole different subject imo.

 

[BiBunny]

I have never understood why we spend so much try to define labels and then having to deal with the hurt feelings that ineveitibly follow. As long as you and your PYL are good with it, why does anyone else need to give a flying fuck about it? Some things described in this thread would result in my being shown the door. On the other end of the spectrum, some of the things I do and say would earn OSG a severe beating. *shrug* I just don't get the point of these discussions.

'Cause if we all didn't have something to bitch about, we'd just sit around and look dumbly at each other?

ataxia, do you know why your lack of power in your relationship causes you frustration? this bit just really jumped out at me and made me wonder, as being powerless in general has always made me feel "meh, such is life," and being powerless in my relationship makes me feel the deepest sense of relief and calm. it's like, i just don't have to worry about it. it's not on my shoulders, and i don't have to pretend like i'm capable and normal and all that crap. it doesn't mean that things are easy on this side...but that's a whole different subject imo.

Yeah, me, too. That's gotta be why I don't get it.

 

[subish2009]

If your daddy gets a phone call telling him that his younger brother was just killed in a car accident, are you going to continue to sass, or are you going to tone it the fuck down?

I'm not talking about salving egos. I'm talking about knowing a time and place when a given behaviour is appropriate, and when it is not.

See, now, I wouldn't call that being a brat, I'd call that being a bitch. To me, brattiness is insolence, petulance, mouthiness. Continuing that behavior in the face of a loved one's personal tragedy? That's majorly bitchy, and I wouldn't expect anyone, Dom or sub, to put up with that.

I wish we could get past the "bratty little spoiled brat child" definition of the term, because we are talking about ADULTS who obviously (at least its obvious to me) have very, very different motivations, feelings, etc. than a goddamn six year old.

Yes, its easy to go to a dictionary and point to that definition, but we're talking about the BDSM community definition of a "brat" which isn't going to be found anywhere in Merriam Websters. So, lets stop doing that, and try to consider that these "brats" we are discussing might have some more emotional complexity, and intelligence, than a child.

I agree. If all we're talking about is the standard English definition, then nothing I've said in this thread applies. I don't operate like a six-year-old either; I don't throw tantrums; I have a two-year-old and there's plenty of that kind of behavior in the house already.

My impression is that we're discussing the BDSM definition. Just as "bottom" means something more here than it does in the vanilla world, so does brat. And I don't think we've yet settled on what that is; perhaps we won't come to a consensus.

Like a lot of people i harbor resentments and hurts and anger. Some people use playful banter to sorta kinda let this stuff sneak out. They needle without formally crossing any lines. They push buttons because they want to deal with someone but they are afraid of really laying it out there.

This is likely one reason some people do these things, but it's certainly not true for us all. I use bratty behavior as a form of play. When I need to address resentments and hurt and anger that I'm harboring, I address it very openly, honestly, assertively, and maturely with my partner. This is not to say that i never slip up and lash out from hurt like many people do, BDSM or vanilla. I certainly DO do that, unfortunately, because I'm human. But that's not bratty behavior either; that's just human weakness.

The more I think about it, the more I think my disconnect here may be because of the differences in the mindsets between service-oriented sub types and non-service-oriented sub types. I notice many of the people in this thread who are calling themselves "brats" are the same people who have said in other threads that they're not service-oriented.

Maybe that's a lot of the difference and the reason I can't wrap my head around it.

Bingo. I think you've nailed it here. Well, part of it anyway.