The AH’s Circle of Friends

[Kantarii]

No, this isn’t a coffee shop or a reading room. There are no word games or scrabble - Hell, no bingo night either. This is a place where we as writers can associate, communicate, and reflect.

So what is my inspiration for this thread? Why, it’s none other than William Shakespeare, probably the most “quotable” person in history.

The man has influenced and inspired all those who have followed him. I find myself occasionally saying something based on what he said. I’m sure I’m not the only one here either.

“To thine own self be true.” - WS.

Oh, and don’t feel limited to talk about Shakespeare. It’s just a nice way to open the thread for any and all open discussion Kant

 

[Voboy]

Ahhh.

But how many of us really ARE true to ourselves? It seems to me that anyone claiming that would have a short, but formidable checklist to say "no" to:

1. Have you ever agreed to do anything you didn't want to do?
2. Have you ever accepted a job you didn't enjoy?

And another to say "yes" to:

1. Have you ever said "no" to authority when you knew it would impact you negatively?
2. Do you act ONLY as your conscience demands, in all things?

I can't satisfy the first checklist; for the second, I can only say yes to the first one. I'm not sure I'd care to live in a world where everyone was really being true to themselves; I think that would come close to a state of nature, and I'm not sure I've got enough ammo to survive that.

 

[CoffeeWithMonkeys]

Honestly I know zilch about Shakespeare. I quit school at 15. Never learned about him.

1. Have you ever agreed to do anything you didn't want to do?
Every fucking day of my life.

2. Have you ever accepted a job you didn't enjoy?
Of course.

And another to say "yes" to:

1. Have you ever said "no" to authority when you knew it would impact you negatively?
I can't think of when I've ever said No to anyone.

2. Do you act ONLY as your conscience demands, in all things?
I try. Fucking hell do I try.

And I thought this was a place to say oh hey here's my info if I ever disappear, try me here.
For some reason I can only get on Lit at home something about it not being secure so no free wifi will let me log in, or something like that, so if I lose home internet I'm fucked.
I don't have FB though, or a actual working phone, I do have Instagram but it's mostly me posting about my muse, or my dog.

 

[Voboy]

I don't know all that much about Shakespeare either, but I know I never got as much out of reading his plays as of watching them performed. He'd understand that.

Hell of a poet, though. I should write more poems; it used to be something I enjoyed a great deal. I wonder why I don't...

I think it's because poems seem too personal to me. I can easily hide in prose, but not in poems.

 

[ChloeTzang]

I don't know all that much about Shakespeare either, but I know I never got as much out of reading his plays as of watching them performed. He'd understand that......

I'm sure he would, and this is still my favorite piece from Shakespeare

 

[yukonnights]

Honestly I know zilch about Shakespeare. I quit school at 15. Never learned about him...

...And I thought this was a place to say oh hey here's my info if I ever disappear, try me here.
For some reason I can only get on Lit at home something about it not being secure so no free wifi will let me log in, or something like that, so if I lose home internet I'm fucked.

I don't have FB though, or a actual working phone, I do have Instagram but it's mostly me posting about my muse, or my dog.

Try this log-in page (below), it shows up as secure/verified by GoDaddy.com It's the so called "new control panel". There's a drop down "Explore" menu that'll get you to the Forum and other places.

Link to LIT log-in -> https://www.literotica.com/members/index.php?forward=**Fstories**Fmembers**Fmain.php

 

[Voboy]

I'm sure he would, and this is still my favorite piece from Shakespeare

Yes.

Teachers who show movies in class get a bad rap usually; it's thought of as lazy pedagogy, at least where I teach. But Shakespeare? I think it's indispensable.

The Baz Luhrmann Romeo and Juliet was a real eye-opener for me. The words came more alive in that goofy context than they ever had during the haltingly-read sections we did in English class, or the Zefferelli version my teacher showed.

 

[yukonnights]

I don't know all that much about Shakespeare either, but I know I never got as much out of reading his plays as of watching them performed. He'd understand that.

Hell of a poet, though. I should write more poems; it used to be something I enjoyed a great deal. I wonder why I don't...

I think it's because poems seem too personal to me. I can easily hide in prose, but not in poems.

I agree about poems being more personal. My problem is that I never really studied or learned the rules of poetry...thus, my bits of thought are more often just scraps of rhyme that are pleasing to me but not really polished enough for poetry. But I get what your saying.

 

[SamScribble]

I agree about poems being more personal. My problem is that I never really studied or learned the rules of poetry....

Poetry has rules? Eek! Now you tell me.

 

[KeithD]

Personal requirements perhaps. I require poetry to have cadence, rhyme, and recognizable message. I consider free verse lazy prose. So, I don't read much poetry these days. It's OK with me that others have different parameters for their poetry, though. I've found I can live without it. (Although I do volume edit a periodic anthology that has a lot of poetry in it. I just don't do the selection for the anthology.)

 

[Voboy]

I used to be a pretty fair poet, published and all that, but that was more than twenty years ago. I like that poetry has rules, but also that they can be broken; the very breaking of the rules is, in and of itself, a form of expression, and the poet can use that.

 

[ChloeTzang]

Speaking of poetry, are there any rules for Anglo-Saxon poetry and I'm thinking here of Beowulf. I'm writing a full-length novel version of "Blood Sacrifice" and weaving some Anglo-Saxon style poetry(?) if that's what you'd call it, into the story. And I have no idea if there are any rules to that sort of style. I was trying to figure it out from reading Beowulf. I mean, I look at this and the only thing I understand is that their's a cadence to the spoken words that sounds natural.

LO, praise of the prowess of people-kings
of spear-armed Danes, in days long sped,
we have heard, and what honor the athelings won!
Oft Scyld the Scefing from squadroned foes,
from many a tribe, the mead-bench tore,
awing the earls. Since erst he lay
friendless, a foundling, fate repaid him:
for he waxed under welkin, in wealth he throve,
till before him the folk, both far and near,
who house by the whale-path, heard his mandate,
gave him gifts: a good king he!

So here's one of my attempts....

“Hearth-companion to my love, husband to my dream-maiden,
For my wyrd has been woven, my fate now sealed.
Fated was I, to love a dream. Followed my heart
‘Cross the ice-peaks and grasslands.
Leading my house-carls, ‘cross the wastes,
Finding my love in a land unknown,
Sealed now to her, ‘till the end of time.”

And another one....

“Long have the warrior’s hands
Known only the spear-shaft’s timber
See how they laugh to hold
Once more the war-man’s blade.”

So, oh experts, your ruthless critiquing is solicited - did I do okay or am I about to get cast to the whale-path?

 

[Kantarii]

I read some of the Valentines Day story submissions. Now, I didn’t read them all, but I did leave a comment and show my support to some of the authors I recognize from in here. KudosKant

Another quote from Shakespeare, “All’s well that ends well.”

I find myself using that quote a good bit in everyday conversation.

 

[Voboy]

Speaking of poetry, are there any rules for Anglo-Saxon poetry and I'm thinking here of Beowulf. I'm writing a full-length novel version of "Blood Sacrifice" and weaving some Anglo-Saxon style poetry(?) if that's what you'd call it, into the story. And I have no idea if there are any rules to that sort of style. I was trying to figure it out from reading Beowulf. I mean, I look at this and the only thing I understand is that their's a cadence to the spoken words that sounds natural.

LO, praise of the prowess of people-kings
of spear-armed Danes, in days long sped,
we have heard, and what honor the athelings won!
Oft Scyld the Scefing from squadroned foes,
from many a tribe, the mead-bench tore,
awing the earls. Since erst he lay
friendless, a foundling, fate repaid him:
for he waxed under welkin, in wealth he throve,
till before him the folk, both far and near,
who house by the whale-path, heard his mandate,
gave him gifts: a good king he!

So here's one of my attempts....

“Hearth-companion to my love, husband to my dream-maiden,
For my wyrd has been woven, my fate now sealed.
Fated was I, to love a dream. Followed my heart
‘Cross the ice-peaks and grasslands.
Leading my house-carls, ‘cross the wastes,
Finding my love in a land unknown,
Sealed now to her, ‘till the end of time.”

And another one....

“Long have the warrior’s hands
Known only the spear-shaft’s timber
See how they laugh to hold
Once more the war-man’s blade.”

So, oh experts, your ruthless critiquing is solicited - did I do okay or am I about to get cast to the whale-path?

Chloe, this was JRR Tolkien’s professional field, and many of the works his son Christopher reproduced in some of the “History of Middle-Earth” volumes treat just this subject at length, with explanatory notes and commentary.

As I recall (it’s been years), the structure is based on alliterated pairs in the middles of each line; in your posted example, prowess-people, Danes-days, honor-aethelings, etc.

A fascinating subject, but alas; even in JRRT’s time, not exactly a vibrant and robust field.

 

[oggbashan]

Chloe, alliteration was a favourite part of epic poetry, to help the narrator's memory.

These lines show it:

Oft Scyld the Scefing from squadroned foes,

friendless, a foundling, fate repaid him:

You need to think about alliteration in your versions.

 

[ChloeTzang]

Chloe, alliteration was a favourite part of epic poetry, to help the narrator's memory.

These lines show it:

Oft Scyld the Scefing from squadroned foes,

friendless, a foundling, fate repaid him:

You need to think about alliteration in your versions.

Aiiiiiiiii. I’m going to have to read up on alliteration now that I know that’s what it is. You don’t know what you don’t know and I don’t think they ever covered that one in my High Scool English classes. I’m on a mission now. Thanks guys

Now what in heck is a glottal stop? My brain cells are overheating here. I need some of Kantari’s metal music

 

[Voboy]

Aiiiiiiiii. I’m going to have to read up on alliteration now that I know that’s what it is. You don’t know what you don’t know and I don’t think they ever covered that one in my High Scool English classes. I’m on a mission now. Thanks guys

Now what in heck is a glottal stop? My brain cells are overheating here. I need some of Kantari’s metal music

I’m on it.

It’s the verbal space in between the syllables of “uh-oh,” for example. It’s a temporary, intentional blockage of air in your glottis.

It shows up in Arabic a lot.

Cleanse the palate by YouTubing and listening to the band Mammothor at high volume. You’re welcome.

 

[ChloeTzang]

I’m on it. .... It’s the verbal space in between the syllables of “uh-oh,” for example. It’s a temporary, intentional blockage of air in your glottis.

Okay, I found a couple of great examples of alliteration from Tolkien and I'm getting this figured out now. The structure is derived from the alliteration and the syllables which are alliterated. Alliteration is based on the initial sound of a word, not its spelling. For example, “cat,” “king,” and “quit” all alliterate, but “cat,” “cent,” and “ciao” do not.

From dark Dunharrow in the dim morning
with thane and captain rode Thengel's son:
to Edoras he came, the ancient halls
of the Mark-wardens mist-enshrouded;
golden timbers were in gloom mantled.
Farewell he bade to his free people,
hearth and high-seat, and the hallowed places,
where long he had feasted ere the light faded.
Forth rode the king, fear behind him,
fate before him. Fealty kept he;
oaths he had taken, all fulfilled them.
Forth rode Theoden. Five nights and days
east and onward rode the Eorlingas
through Folde and Fenmarch and the Firienwood,
six thousand spears to Sunlending,
Mundberg the mighty under Mindolluin,
Sea-kings' city in the South-kingdom
foe-beleaguered, fire-encircled.
Doom drove them on. Darkness took them,
horse and horseman; hoofbeats afar
sank into silence: so the songs tell us.

So I also picked up this, that the basis of Anglo-Saxon alliterative meter (such as Beowulf) is 4-beat accentual meter. Aaaaggghhhhh. What the heck is that, Chloe whimpers.

And this: A quick overview of how Old English Alliterative Meter works:

OEAM consists of two half-lines. Each line contains 4 strong stresses; each line is divided by a strong medial caesura into two half-lines (also called "hemistiches"), each half-line containing two stresses. .

Alliteration falls on the stressed syllables (called lifts). The first lift of the second half-line dictates the alliteration. Either or both of the lifts of the first half-line alliterate with the first lift of the second half-line, but generally the second lift in the second half-line does not alliterate with it. (For poetical flourish, it can alliterate with other syllables, though.)

Notice that Anglo-Saxon metre at least is held together by an obligatory alliterative pattern; one or both of the stresses in the first half-line must alliterate with the first stress (but not the second) in the second half-line

ie if the stresses are 1 2 // 3 4, and underlined stresses are alliterating, the following are allowed -

1 2 // 3 4
1 2 // 3 4
1 2 // 3 4

A-S metre is made audible by more than just a stress-count. The pattern of two-stress half-lines tied together with heavy alliteration is much more distinct than a simple four-stress line would be.

There are five patterns for each half-line. Tolkien brilliantly explained them in his essay "On Translating Beowulf". They are:

A type: KNIGHTS in ARmour (lift, drop, lift, drop)

B type: the ROARing SEA (drop, lift, drop, lift)

C type: on HIGH MOUNtains (drop, lift, lift, drop)

D(a) type: BRIGHT ARCHangels (lift, lift, half-lift, drop)

D(b) type: OLD, BRAzen faced (lift, lift, drop, half-lift)

E type: HIGH crested HELMS (lift, drop, drop, lift)

Unaccented prefixes (a-, be-, ge-, on-, etc) did not count towards alliteration. Consonant clusters only alliterated with the same clusters (i.e., "striking" alliterates with "stand", not "sail") A number of unaccented syllables (drops) could be interspersed in a half line without disrupting the meter.

If we look at Theoden's speech, we can see Tolkien demonstrating the meter:

B Arise, arise, - riders of Théoden! A
E Fell deeds awake: - fire and slaughter! A
A Spear shall be shaken, - shield be splintered, A
A A sword-day, a red day, - ere the sun rises! C

OMG. I have to master this?
The things one does for a fantasy novel!!!!!

 

[Voboy]

Okay, I found a couple of great examples of alliteration from Tolkien and I'm getting this figured out now. The structure is derived from the alliteration and the syllables which are alliterated. Alliteration is based on the initial sound of a word, not its spelling. For example, “cat,” “king,” and “quit” all alliterate, but “cat,” “cent,” and “ciao” do not.

From dark Dunharrow in the dim morning
with thane and captain rode Thengel's son:
to Edoras he came, the ancient halls
of the Mark-wardens mist-enshrouded;
golden timbers were in gloom mantled.
Farewell he bade to his free people,
hearth and high-seat, and the hallowed places,
where long he had feasted ere the light faded.
Forth rode the king, fear behind him,
fate before him. Fealty kept he;
oaths he had taken, all fulfilled them.
Forth rode Theoden. Five nights and days
east and onward rode the Eorlingas
through Folde and Fenmarch and the Firienwood,
six thousand spears to Sunlending,
Mundberg the mighty under Mindolluin,
Sea-kings' city in the South-kingdom
foe-beleaguered, fire-encircled.
Doom drove them on. Darkness took them,
horse and horseman; hoofbeats afar
sank into silence: so the songs tell us.

So I also picked up this, that the basis of Anglo-Saxon alliterative meter (such as Beowulf) is 4-beat accentual meter. Aaaaggghhhhh. What the heck is that, Chloe whimpers.

And this: A quick overview of how Old English Alliterative Meter works:

OEAM consists of two half-lines. Each line contains 4 strong stresses; each line is divided by a strong medial caesura into two half-lines (also called "hemistiches"), each half-line containing two stresses. .

Alliteration falls on the stressed syllables (called lifts). The first lift of the second half-line dictates the alliteration. Either or both of the lifts of the first half-line alliterate with the first lift of the second half-line, but generally the second lift in the second half-line does not alliterate with it. (For poetical flourish, it can alliterate with other syllables, though.)

Notice that Anglo-Saxon metre at least is held together by an obligatory alliterative pattern; one or both of the stresses in the first half-line must alliterate with the first stress (but not the second) in the second half-line

ie if the stresses are 1 2 // 3 4, and underlined stresses are alliterating, the following are allowed -

1 2 // 3 4
1 2 // 3 4
1 2 // 3 4

A-S metre is made audible by more than just a stress-count. The pattern of two-stress half-lines tied together with heavy alliteration is much more distinct than a simple four-stress line would be.

There are five patterns for each half-line. Tolkien brilliantly explained them in his essay "On Translating Beowulf". They are:

A type: KNIGHTS in ARmour (lift, drop, lift, drop)

B type: the ROARing SEA (drop, lift, drop, lift)

C type: on HIGH MOUNtains (drop, lift, lift, drop)

D(a) type: BRIGHT ARCHangels (lift, lift, half-lift, drop)

D(b) type: OLD, BRAzen faced (lift, lift, drop, half-lift)

E type: HIGH crested HELMS (lift, drop, drop, lift)

Unaccented prefixes (a-, be-, ge-, on-, etc) did not count towards alliteration. Consonant clusters only alliterated with the same clusters (i.e., "striking" alliterates with "stand", not "sail") A number of unaccented syllables (drops) could be interspersed in a half line without disrupting the meter.

If we look at Theoden's speech, we can see Tolkien demonstrating the meter:

B Arise, arise, - riders of Théoden! A
E Fell deeds awake: - fire and slaughter! A
A Spear shall be shaken, - shield be splintered, A
A A sword-day, a red day, - ere the sun rises! C

OMG. I have to master this?
The things one does for a fantasy novel!!!!!

Yes. I love this, too. I read about it maybe ten years back, and it absorbed me.

I feel for Tolkien. You just know he wished he could have been the great twentieth-century Anglo-Saxon poet, but his time had passed fourteen centuries before. It’s why I value the Christopher Tolkien books; there was so much more to the man than “just” LOTR, as if that wasn’t enough.

 

[jomar]

Haha...Chloe, you definitely don’t need to get in the weeds unless total immersion is your style, which can be enlightening or paralyzing. You really just need to know enough to not stray too far afield and irk the purists.

But I get it. I’m on the verge of submitting a sci fi story to a magazine and wondering if my “science” will pass. It’s not a hard sci fi story, but I do wonder if the references will be ok. We’ll see, I guess.

Bottom line...it’s your thing, do what you wanna do. (Extra credit for source )

 

[yukonnights]

Did I hear someone ask early if there were any rules in poetry

 

[vanmyers86]

I'm no poet, but I do write songs. Meter is such an integral part that once I have the first draft I go back to note which syllables are stressed, and that's generally when the melody takes shape. I then rewrite based on both tune and stressed syllables.
Which is my round-about way of saying that if I were tackling a project like yours, Chloe, I would consider having/finding a basic tune to place it on. It's easier for me, at least, to feel whether it's right that way. YMMV, of course.

Best wishes on this - I admire your vision and ambition!

 

[KeithD]

Row, row, row your boat . . .

 

[Hypoxia]

Row, row, row your boat . . .

Propel, propel propel thy craft...
_______

I'm a poet.
I know it.
Do I show it?
Hope I don't blow it.
_______

Q: What's the difference between poetry and songwriting?
A: Royalties.
_______

"A poet who reads his verse in public may have other nasty habits."
--RA Heinlein

 

[Tio_Narratore]

Speaking of poetry, are there any rules for Anglo-Saxon poetry and I'm thinking here of Beowulf. I'm writing a full-length novel version of "Blood Sacrifice" and weaving some Anglo-Saxon style poetry(?) if that's what you'd call it, into the story. And I have no idea if there are any rules to that sort of style. I was trying to figure it out from reading Beowulf. I mean, I look at this and the only thing I understand is that their's a cadence to the spoken words that sounds natural.

LO, praise of the prowess of people-kings
of spear-armed Danes, in days long sped,
we have heard, and what honor the athelings won!
Oft Scyld the Scefing from squadroned foes,
from many a tribe, the mead-bench tore,
awing the earls. Since erst he lay
friendless, a foundling, fate repaid him:
for he waxed under welkin, in wealth he throve,
till before him the folk, both far and near,
who house by the whale-path, heard his mandate,
gave him gifts: a good king he!

So here's one of my attempts....

“Hearth-companion to my love, husband to my dream-maiden,
For my wyrd has been woven, my fate now sealed.
Fated was I, to love a dream. Followed my heart
‘Cross the ice-peaks and grasslands.
Leading my house-carls, ‘cross the wastes,
Finding my love in a land unknown,
Sealed now to her, ‘till the end of time.”

And another one....

“Long have the warrior’s hands
Known only the spear-shaft’s timber
See how they laugh to hold
Once more the war-man’s blade.”

So, oh experts, your ruthless critiquing is solicited - did I do okay or am I about to get cast to the whale-path?

You've done a very good job of emulating the Modern English translations of Beowulf, many of which do try to capture the cadence of the original. You might want to listen to it read in Old English/Anglo-Saxon. Here's a link to get you started, if you wish...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K13GJkGvDw