The Ability to Construct Arguements

sanchopanza

Really Really Experienced
Joined
Oct 5, 2003
Posts
433
I've been thinking about arguing lately. I used to think that maybe if you just show use of logic and valid arguements and the other person will see sense. Boy was I wrong. So this post in not a rant on how pissed off I get when people argue in circles but instead just a list a la Thouless of dishonest tricks used in arguements.

Situations in which cold, unemotional thinking is needed generally involve whenever you discuss controversial topics.

1. The use of emotionally toned words.
2. Making a statement in which 'all' is implied but 'some' is true.
3. Proof by selected instance.
4. Extension of an opponent's proposition by contradiction or misrepresentation of it.
5. Evasion of a sound refutation of an arguement by the use of a sophistical formula.
6. Diversion to another question, to a side issue, or by irrelevant objection.
7. Proof by inconsequent arguement.
8. The arguement that we should not make efforts against X which is admittedly evil because there is a worse evil Y against which our efforts should be directed.
9. The recommendation of a position because it is a mean between two extremes.
10. Pointing out the logical correctness of the form of an argument whose premisses contain doubtful or untrue statements of fact.
11. The use of an argument of logically unsound form.
12. Argument in a circle.
13. Begging the question.
14. Discussing a verbal proposition as if it were a factual one, or failing to disentangle the verbal and factual elements in a proposition that is partly both.
15. Putting forward a tautology (such as that too much of the thing attacked is bad) as if it were a factual judgement.
16. The use of speculative argument.
17. Change in the meaning of a term during the course of an argument.
18. The use of a dilemma which ignores a continuous series of possibilities between the two extremes presented.
19. The use of the fact of continuity between them to throw doubt on the real difference between two things (the 'argument of the beard').
20. Illegitimate use of or demand for definition.
21. Suggestion by repeated affirmation.
22. Suggestion by use of a confident manner.
23. Suggestion by prestige.
24. Prestige by false credentials.
25. Prestige by use of pseudo-technical jargon.
26. Affectation of failure to understand backed by prestige.
27. The use of questions drawing out damaging admissions.
28. The appeal to mere authority.
29. Overcoming resistance to a doubtful proposition by a preliminary statement of a few easily accepted ones.
30. Statement of a doubtful proposition in such a way that it fits in with the thought-habits or the prejudices of the hearer.
31. The use of generally accepted formulae of predigested thought as premisses in argument.
32. 'There is much to be said on both sides, so no decision can be made either way', or any other formula leading to the attitude of academic detachment.
33. Argument by mere analogy.
34. Argument by forced analogy.
35. Angering an opponent in order that he may argue badly.
36. Special pleading.
37. Commending or condemning a proposition because of its practical consequences to the hearer.
38. Argument by attributing prejudices or motives to one's opponent.


and a few of my own:

attachment of emotion to an argument - in order to gain support for an argument the person arguing their case may attach emotion to it and try to win through wholly subjective reasoning

personal attacks, such as the way you dress or talk and trying to undermine the opponent by pointing out personal flaws, also this can refer to the idea that the opponent is ill-equipped to argue their own case and so should concede defeat to the more knowledgeable

failure to separate the person from the arguement. the person is the argument syndrome.

taking part of the argument out of context and then basing the rebuttal to the argument upon that premise.
 
The elegance of classical logic

Dear Sanch,
You forgot the two most important elements for a succesful argument:
1. The Terminator: "Fuck you, asshole."
2. Brass knuckles
Sophistically,
MG
Ps. When stating an arguement in writting, dont mispel words.
 
arguing is just something that interests me is all. This past week alone in conversations and arguments I have noticed people using:

1. The use of emotionally toned words.
2. Making a statement in which 'all' is implied but 'some' is true.
3. Proof by selected instance.
4. Extension of an opponent's proposition by contradiction or misrepresentation of it.
7. Proof by inconsequent arguement.
8. The arguement that we should not make efforts against X which is admittedly evil because there is a worse evil Y against which our efforts should be directed.
12. Argument in a circle.
14. Discussing a verbal proposition as if it were a factual one, or failing to disentangle the verbal and factual elements in a proposition that is partly both.
15. Putting forward a tautology (such as that too much of the thing attacked is bad) as if it were a factual judgement.
16. The use of speculative argument.
17. Change in the meaning of a term during the course of an argument.
28. The appeal to mere authority.
30. Statement of a doubtful proposition in such a way that it fits in with the thought-habits or the prejudices of the hearer.
33. Argument by mere analogy.
38. Argument by attributing prejudices or motives to one's opponent.

and thats just the ones I noticed at the time.
 
Good point. If you mispel words too many people will pounce on that as proof that you are inadequate at arguing. I made a slip of the tongue when arguing with somebody 2 days ago and he pounced on it immediately and tried to discredit me even though I had corrected myself immediately.
 
Aye no. Aye did (damn that word) it (and that one too) on (and again) perpuss.

You misspelled argument earlier by the by.
 
Going head to head with MG now as well, Sancho? You're just a sucker for punishment, aren't ya, boy.
 
Yah, but that's understandable when you have the attention span of a retarded goldfish.

S'okay son, we take care of the mentally disadvantaged in the AH. Hell, I even used to do charity gigs for your kind.
 
hiya

tut, tut, boys, giggle.

never see the sense in arguing, rarely do it myself, i prefer a more sedate discussion or debate to a silly stress building rant.

if all else fails a smack in the mouth serves just as much purpose as a load of silly words:D

lorri xxxxxxx very mellow now, giggling well and all.
 
Raphy, Raphy, Raphy, I've noticed many times in the past that when somebody lacks the ability to objectively and logically attack an argument or an opinion or a philosophy then they will often revert to personal attacks. Which is exactly what you have done. Some how you think that you are morally superior to me just because you can be an arsehole.

I was trying to avoid the same argument but I'll say it one more time because obviously you're not getting it. Again and again you reverted to the "I care about the kids" argument. Here you make the assumption that keeping children from being molested and not judging amoral thoughts and desires cannot ever go together.

In future if you want to have an argument I'll have to remember that you lack the ability to construct arguments and revert immediately to childish name calling and jokes which only yourself are laughing at. I'm sure in your own mind Raphy that you are absolutely hilarious, maybe you are, maybe I just don't know humour.
 
Re: hiya

LorriLove said:

if all else fails a smack in the mouth serves just as much purpose as a load of silly words:D

Now that I agree with, Lorri..

Now c'mere so I can spank you!
 
Re: Re: hiya

raphy said:
Now that I agree with, Lorri..

Now c'mere so I can spank you!

i'm cumming, i'm cumming, giggle:D so spank me babe:devil: :rose:
 
sanchopanza said:
Raphy, Raphy, Raphy, I've noticed many times in the past that when somebody lacks the ability to objectively and logically attack an argument or an opinion or a philosophy then they will often revert to personal attacks. Which is exactly what you have done. Some how you think that you are morally superior to me just because you can be an arsehole.

Dude, I think you'll find that there's more than one witness here on the AH that will testify to the fact that I'm more than capable of arguing a point logically, when I think it's worthwhile. You, however, condone child molestation as a fantasy, which immediately renders any arguments you may make as worthless. The personal attacks were purely for my own amusement (and the others who PM'd me telling me how glad they were that I said what I said)

I was trying to avoid the same argument but I'll say it one more time because obviously you're not getting it. Again and again you reverted to the "I care about the kids" argument. Here you make the assumption that keeping children from being molested and not judging amoral thoughts and desires cannot ever go together.
Sancho, you're a sick man. You defending those desires because you have them yourself?

In future if you want to have an argument I'll have to remember that you lack the ability to construct arguments and revert immediately to childish name calling and jokes which only yourself are laughing at.
*grins* .. Oh trust me, I'm not the only one here laughing at you and your supercilious, self-absorbed drivel, and I'm not the only one with that opinion - I'm just the only one posting it.

I'm sure in your own mind Raphy that you are absolutely hilarious, maybe you are, maybe I just don't know humour.
Well, at least we can agree on something.

edited, cos I'm a goof and can't type a backslash
 
sanchopanza said:
In future if you want to have an argument I'll have to remember that you lack the ability to construct arguments and revert immediately to childish name calling and jokes which only yourself are laughing at. I'm sure in your own mind Raphy that you are absolutely hilarious, maybe you are, maybe I just don't know humour.

I see you didn't actually read what raph said, didja, Sancho? Or are you simply incapable of understanding logic?

I understand that you're on the defensive now...as you should be. But are you really sure you want to keep digging that hole you're in deeper and deeper, till the walls cave in on your pathetic little head?

Trust me, raph not only can but did argue his point clearly and logically, without resorting to ad hominem attacks. Maybe you should try that, eh?
 
Just for the record, I'm still with Raff. (Especially if he's gonna spank Lorri :p )

'dita
 
OK, I just don't have the time to do what I wanted. but here's the challenge, Sancho. Go take all your statements on the thread about which you believe you are so righteous and give them to one of your teachers/professors of logic and let them 'red mark' them. I think you will find that you are guilty of as many of what you list as those you would accuse.
 
No Argument or "argue-meant" from me. Confused the thread is 'arguement' but really about an 'argument' tough one to argue about. Just to make it official, "No, fuck me I'm an asshole!"

I like your list hope you do not mind I copied it for future use. I know some people who thrive on taking the other point of view even if they are dead nuts wrong. Not at Lit. everyone here is always in the right. <--- avoiding an argument

Phildo, seeing alot of potential for an argument with all the comments sticks his head in a hole!
 
SPANK?! Did someone say SPANK?! Do I have to take a number? Can I get in Lori's, Perdita's AND MG's line?
 
geez... I thought having a 'daily whipping boy' and trolling was left to the GB...

Nowhere does Sancho 'condone' anything... it's an argument for someone's right to 'think' whatever the hell they want.

I personally think a person should be allowed to fantasize and write incest stories... doesn't mean I condone the thought or the action.

And for all the talk of debating words in the ivory tower (may be the other thread), who's claiming the throne of what is a permissable thought and what isn't?

child porn, animal sex, rape, incest, yada, yada, yada

Are thoughts ok for some of the above but not others? Where is the line drawn and more importantly, who draws that line?

If one allows the 'thought' of rape without persecution, what makes this so different than the 'thought' of child porn?

I don't condone either (and I would expect Sancho doesn't either) but that's a far cry from saying anyone with the mere thought of it should be dragged and burned.

Park
 
I've copied the pages down and shown them to people who have agreed with me. As for this childish pissing contest and feeble personal attacks on me, I say do whatever the fuck you like. Ah well and at first you seemed like such a nice bunch.

Such a shame that you had to turn what was a valid philosophical point into childish name calling and absurd suggestions about condoning child molestation - I said it wasn't wrong to think about it but wrong to do it, what's hard to understand about that?

Edited for apologies to people such as Parklife and Gauche.
 
Last edited:
I would like to preface my comments by saying they are meant to be purely from my own personal opinion. I'm not attacking or defending either of the sides here, just presenting my own view (end disclaimer)

sanchopanza said:
Raphy, Raphy, Raphy, I've noticed many times in the past that when somebody lacks the ability to objectively and logically attack an argument or an opinion or a philosophy then they will often revert to personal attacks. Which is exactly what you have done. Some how you think that you are morally superior to me just because you can be an arsehole.

Having read this thread and the one that sparked it, I feel the need to say that people can sometimes take the objective and logical stance a step too far. If all arugments or debates were handled in a completely logical or objective manner, it would be a terribly cold and unfair world, as it would be if everything was handled in a purely subjective manner.

It is my opinion that the argument that lead to this was handled poorly because even though the intial reasoning had merit, it was applied to the wrong subject matter. Some thoughts are so malignantly deviant that the person experiencing them should seek psychiatric counsel. And yes, that is subjective.

Logic, objectivity and subjectivity should temper each other, not necessarily be diametrically opposed.

I'm a big proponent of compromise and the search for the happy medium (to dream the impossible dream). I would take all the ultra-conservative types and the radical liberals and throw them all onto the same boat to Antarctica.

Now that I have completely muddled my point, I'll leave you all to agree, ignore, insult or laugh at it, at your leisure.

-Mike B.
 
sanchopanza said:
arguing is just something that interests me is all.

Arguing is over-rated, more people should just explore the benefits of mass debating.

:eek:
 
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