Testing readers 'morality'

[SimonDoom]

If you don't think the written word has an influence you are a moron.. That is the whole basis for propaganda.
Few people are going to think after seeing a movie or reading a story, anybody is going to go out to reenact it. But to ignore the influence? Nope.

I don't think anyone is saying the written word has no influence. I think people (like me) are saying that the chance of a literotica story having an adverse impact in the real world is so speculative that it's foolish to tell a literotica writer "you are being morally irresponsible to write X-type stories."

My stories are not like Animal Farm. Animal Farm was written as a political allegory. It was meant to send a message and influence people.

My stories are not like that. For example, I write stories about consensual adult incest. My stories typically portray incest as pleasurable and positive for both fictional parties. Almost always, they have happy endings.

In no sense whatsoever am I promoting or glorifying incest. I fully recognize that simondoom incest is like a unicorn, a fantasy creature. My readers step into a fantasy world, indulge in a little naughty fun, and then return to the normal world.

My incest stories have been viewed .millions of times. Do I ever feel pangs of conscience that I have done harm in the real world, that i have added in my own small way to the incidence of "bad incest" in the real world? No, I do not. I acknowledge the possibility, just as I acknowledge the possibility that some reader somewhere, sometime was inspired by Lolita to try pedophilia. But the risk is so speculative, and, I think, small, compared to the pleasure i know that my stories bring, that it is not a risk worth worrying about EVEN IF I accept the mantle of being a so-called "morally responsible" author.

There is a very huge step to take between acknowledging in a general way that one's words have "influence" and having any sort of reality-based confidence that Literotica-style stories about subjects such as nonconsent or incest cause actual harm in the real world. For all any of us know, they cause more good than harm, by directing potentially harmful urges into harmless channels. Claiming to know anything more than that is to indulge in sheer speculation.

 

[lovecraft68]

Speaking for myself, that's not what I'm saying at all. I have responsibility for everything I write.

What I reject is the notion that I am therefore responsible for another's actions if they read what I write. They have agency. They have choices. More to the point, they have a billion variables influencing their conduct. Take any of those variables away, and their behavior might be quite different. More to my point, replace one variable with another and you won't necessarily get any difference in behavior.

Suppose I write an NC/R story where a stripper gets kidnapped and assaulted. Suppose you write a similar story. Now, suppose a man with a troubled upbringing and a checkered sexual past reads both stories in one night. He is a frequent customer at strip clubs, where he has occasionally been thrown out for making drunken advances. A week later, he's arrested because, while drunk at a strip club, he accosted a dancer.

Why do I have a moral responsibility for his crime? More to the point, why don't you have as much responsibility as I? He read your story too, after all.



In general, ad-hominems aren't a good way to present your opinion. In this case, it also clarifies that you're not open to discussion. So... why bother discussing it with us?

Before I say anything else, you're arguing with someone who is the anti-thesis of his own argument. He's concerned we should feel responsibility for what we write here, but again, supports the category that has the ugliest content on the site because the BTB crowd is not about a kink. they're about revenge and violence. They can be, they can write it, they can read it. Do I find the glorification and sexualization of violence aimed at women and the men who they 'cheated' with disturbing? Yes because it's not a kink and this is an erotic site their using to push a message that would be banned in many places.

But...I am against censorship beyond what I choose to censor for my self and will not say it's responsible for anything except maybe whipping up some already miserable people, but they claim we're responsible so he needs to take a look in the mirror is my point where he and others are concerned.

As far as the topic goes, works of fiction be it a story, book, movie, art, music poetry, anything being blamed as the reason unhinged ill people do unhinged things has been going on forever. Just as an aside, I wonder how many people living in that time or the crowd who wished we were living in that time, saw the Housewives handbook as something that pushed a bad message at people? Very few, it was okay to act like that man, why? Because its what they wanted it to be.

Now that I took a cheap shot at lit's reigning misogynists, I'll get back to the point. I'm old enough to have gone through Rock and Roll promoting sex violence drugs and promiscuity. D&D caused mental illness and suicde, the Matrix caused Columbine, and video games especally modern ones promote violence, murder, shootings and even sexual assault.

There's people who tried to pin The Beatles for Manson because he used Helter Skelter.

My feeling has always been no one of sound mind and basic morality is going to go out and commit crimes because a book or movie told them to. I imagine that something could be a trigger or last straw in some deranged person's mind, but that was already there and had been for some time. We are not responsible for someone committing a crime over something we wrote or countless works of fiction and movies would be outlawed.

There's also a difference in having a character do something awful in a story as part of the story and coming out and literally typing "Go muder someone, go rape someone, I command it!" and if they did? My point stands, normal people do not do those things.

Going into my own philosophies here, but many things are there to distract. I often feel this debate is one of them. Why condemn the criminal or get mentally ill people help when we can just pretend it was some book or movie that should be banned?

As time goes on personal accountability is at an all-time low. These days people blame news media and politicians for why they do awful things.

But it's never your fault, just everyone else's. That's what this comes down to at the core.

 

[Gamblnluck]

In no sense whatsoever am I promoting or glorifying incest. I fully recognize that simondoom incest is like a unicorn, a fantasy creature. My readers step into a fantasy world, indulge in a little naughty fun, and then return to the normal world.

Even if you were trying it would t be a problem. I simply took exception to statements that what we write has no influence. Incest is fairly mild compared to kidnapping, blackmailing, rape etc. How it is presented is key.

 

[Gamblnluck]

Why do I have a moral responsibility for his crime? More to the point, why don't you have as much responsibility as I? He read your story too, after all.

I suppose it would really come down to what the person said. If he spouted things like "Voboy on Lit is my hero. The way he described drugging and raping and dismembering that dancer sounded like so much fun, I just had to try it. Nothing bad ever came back at those guys." I think there might be a little fallout at least to Lit.
Now you might not feel bad if you heard that, but I would.
Have you ever wondered why Lauren has put a few controls on what is permissible on this site?
I am not saying that every story should read like a morality tale. Far from it. I'm just saying don't discount your influence if you cross over into the dark too far. Some nut might follow.

There have been a few stories I've read in the past few months that go way too far. Approaching torture, snuff scenes. Apparently they got past the moderators.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

As time goes on personal accountability is at an all-time low.

This is because of PC and cancel culture.

 

[lovecraft68]

This is because of PC and cancel culture.

Those are certainly factors, but I also think that 'social" media has been a huge help to just about anything negative out there. Millions of parrots all screaming that everything is the fault of fill in the blank. Mix that with politics and it's a perfect storm or there there little one, you did nothing wrong, they did.

But that's he modern world, keep in mind men have been dodging blame since Adam ate an apple, he knew he shouldn't and didn't have a gun to his head when he did, but it's been Eve and women's fault ever since.

Because when it comes to a society with very low accountability men on average have even less.

Wasn't always that way. I came from the time our fathers would slap us for whining. Now male victimhood is all the rage.

I've been invited by a couple to go on their podcast and rant on this topic. I'm considering it, it might be the only way I could top the hate I've gotten for some of my LW stories.

 

[MillieDynamite]

In my life, I've learned to view anyone who declares themselves an expert or master of something as someone to take anything they say with a grain of salt and a lot of suspicion. My father (adopted father) is an excellent carpenter, an expert with a handgun, rifle, and shotgun, and was a master investigator when he was a PI. I don't know that because he ever said he was even good at any of these things. I've seen him shoot; I've seen the trophies he's won (which he keeps in a box inside a closet and never takes out). I've heard from those who know him about what he is capable of. He's built me furniture, cabinets, and fixed a ton of things for me. Those people who must tout what they know don't know as much as they claim. Anyone who tells you the mainstream of research is wrong and they are right (here we're talking about our writing making people do terrible things) is a self-proclaimed master of what is. Um, but they aren't.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

In my life, I've learned to view anyone who declares themselves an expert or master of something as someone to take anything they say with a grain of salt and a lot of suspicion. My father (adopted father) is an excellent carpenter, an expert with a handgun, rifle, and shotgun, and was a master investigator when he was a PI. I don't know that because he ever said he was even good at any of these things. I've seen him shoot; I've seen the trophies he's won (which he keeps in a box inside a closet and never takes out). I've heard from those who know him about what he is capable of. He's built me furniture, cabinets, and fixed a ton of things for me. Those people who must tout what they know don't know as much as they claim. Anyone who tells you the mainstream of research is wrong and they are right (here we're talking about our writing making people do terrible things) is a self-proclaimed master of what is. Um, but they aren't.

By that argument, I can take your entire paragraph with a grain of salt, since you claim to know so well, apparently that means that you don't. ; )

 

[MillieDynamite]

I don't claim anything about myself or my knowledge of the subject at hand, only about my father and how I learned about his skills. However, I do get what you mean! Or maybe I don't since I'm proclaiming myself an expert at what you mean? This is confusing.

By that argument, I can take your entire paragraph with a grain of salt, since you claim to know so well, apparently that means that you don't. ; )

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I don't claim anything about myself or my knowledge of the subject at hand, only about my father and how I learned about his skills. However, I do get what you mean! Or maybe I don't since I'm proclaiming myself an expert at what you mean? This is confusing.

It's a paradox fer sherr!! ; )

An' my Dad built me tables and countertops too an' fixt my car an' fixt my lawn mower an' tiled my shower an' fixt my leaky pipes an' I'm smrter an' better than u an' my Dad culd beat up yr Dad!!11!1

Sorry, I just had to say it. : P

 

[Voboy]

Have you ever wondered why Lauren has put a few controls on what is permissible on this site?

She's Laurel, not Lauren.

I am not saying that every story should read like a morality tale. Far from it. I'm just saying don't discount your influence if you cross over into the dark too far. Some nut might follow.

Might. But I won't know if he does. And so? Why should I care? You're ignoring my argument, in case you hadn't noticed, so I'm unsure why I should countenance yours.

If he's an actual "nut," there's no point in looking for culpability anyway.

There have been a few stories I've read in the past few months that go way too far. Approaching torture, snuff scenes. Apparently they got past the moderators.

Did you report them?

 

[lc69hunter]

I have been following this conversation for seven pages. I consider AH to be the creme de la creme of Lit, because you produce the product that the site lives and dies for. Without you, the site doesn't exist. I have seen you argue miniscule points to the point of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. We all write for an audience, and how that audience responds and acts out is beyond our control. We are not the cause of their dysfunction.
I have only published five stories, four in Essays and one in LW all dealing with some form of infidelity. I also troll as a reader troll the BTB stories and the weak morality tales which are so prevalent in LW these days. I have received two threats so serious on DMs, that I felt it was necessary to change my location on my profile.

Talk about acting out, there are some seriously deranged individuals in that area.