Ten Comandments - Practise

[wildsweetone]

Let's use this thread for anyone who wants to play about and practise any of the Ten Commandments discussed in the Ten Commandment Thread

Here's a direct link to xterminal's Live Journal where his Ten Commandments reside.

Briefly:
1. Show, don't tell.
2. End every line with the most meaningful word you can.
3. One line strophes are verboten.
4. No adverbs (words ending in ...ly).
5. No gerunds (words ending in ...ing).
6. Brevity is the soul of wit.
7. Free verse is free verse/rhyme is rhyme.
8. Avoid the 7 dirty words.
9. Hide the bodies.
10. Hit the books.


The idea.

Let's state the rule we are working on and then post our poem. Anyone can comment to say whether that rule has been adhered to or not, but if you think it hasn't met the basic criteria then state a clear reason why, with examples.

 

[PatCarrington]

Let's use this thread for anyone who wants to play about and practise any of the Ten Commandments discussed in the Ten Commandment Thread

Here's a direct link to xterminal's Live Journal where his Ten Commandments reside.

Briefly:
1. Show, don't tell.
2. End every line with the most meaningful word you can.
3. One line strophes are verboten.
4. No adverbs (words ending in ...ly).
5. No gerunds (words ending in ...ing).
6. Brevity is the soul of wit.
7. Free verse is free verse/rhyme is rhyme.
8. Avoid the 7 dirty words.
9. Hide the bodies.
10. Hit the books.


The idea.

Let's state the rule we are working on and then post our poem. Anyone can comment to say whether that rule has been adhered to or not, but if you think it hasn't met the basic criteria then state a clear reason why, with examples.

wild,

just wanted to say (i read the whole article), that in my opinion some of his/her points have very little validity.

in my opinion, to put those ten up with the assumption that they are gospel would be a mistake, if that's what you're doing. they give that appearance, labeled the way they are.

edited to add: his/her errors range from the indisputable (not understanding what a gerund is - a gerund is NOT a word ending in -ing. it is a verb form ending in -ing that is used as a noun.) to the highly subjective and debatable (coming up with his "list of words" to stay away from).

 

[wildsweetone]

I purposely highlighted the word 'his' because those commandments are xterminal's, not actually God's (or mine ). Some may agree or disagree with him (xterminal) and that's fine. I found it interesting to read and ponder and came to some conclusions of my own. I personally partially agree with 1 and 2 and disagree with 3 through to 10.

How about this for an idea... we all work out a set of commandments that we all feel are more suitable and realistic. Any thoughts?

 

[WickedEve]

wild,

just wanted to say (i read the whole article), that in my opinion some of his/her points have very little validity.

in my opinion, to put those ten up with the assumption that they are gospel would be a mistake, if that's what you're doing. they give that appearance, labeled the way they are.

edited to add: his/her errors range from the indisputable (not understanding what a gerund is - a gerund is NOT a word ending in -ing. it is a verb form ending in -ing that is used as a noun.) to the highly subjective and debatable (coming up with his "list of words" to stay away from).

I read about half of that article and I plan to read the rest once my kids finish making demands. lol I hope you'll give a few more examples of which "commandments" have little validity. I need to know before I take everything he/she says too seriously.

 

[PatCarrington]

I purposely highlighted the word 'his' because those commandments are xterminal's, not actually God's (or mine )

i saw that, wild.

they just look all official and scary up there.

I read about half of that article and I plan to read the rest once my kids finish making demands. lol I hope you'll give a few more examples of which "commandments" have little validity. I need to know before I take everything he/she says too seriously.

it's very subjective, evie.

for what it's worth:

i agree totally with 1,2 and 10 only.

i think 3 is usually right, but not always.

if 4 and 5 literally mean no adverbs with -ly and no gerunds, then i disagree totally. i don't see how anyone could agree with that, or say it.

i think 6 has much validity, but to call it a commandment is a big stretch.

i think 7 and 8 border on ludicrous.

i don't think much of 9 either (this is a porn site, after all.)

 

[wildsweetone]

I shouldn't have started this thread...


Number 9 is very interesting.

'Hide the bodies'

There is something erotic about 'suggestion'. Don't you think?

 

[BooMerengue]

Well, lets not throw the baby out cuz the bathwaters a bit funky. Why don't we use this as a start towards a better working of 10 Poetry Suggestions Inspired By Literotica Poets and then, or as we go, we can use these to learn from. It has the makings of some pretty fine exercises that most of us could probably benefit from. And when we get the Suggestions fine tuned maybe they could get a sticky...

Maybe we could all get sticky doin this. (this is a porn site, after all.)


lol

 

[PatCarrington]

I shouldn't have started this thread...


Number 9 is very interesting.

'Hide the bodies'

There is something erotic about 'suggestion'. Don't you think?

yes you should have.

of course there is something erotic about 'suggestion'.....very....i object to the elimination of all else.

i have read some GREAT down and dirty poetry, and some GREAT poetry that was more violent than that rule would allow.

 

[WickedEve]

i think 3 is usually right, but not always.

I've broken the 3rd poetry commandment and I seem to be okay with breaking God's 7th commandment. So, that's not so bad.

 

[wildsweetone]

So, we could say

Hide the Bodies has its place depending on the aim of the poet?

If we think in too general a manner we will have a very wishy washy set of 'Rules' to post... and, we might well end up with a page of explanation for each rule.


Boo, it sounds like a great idea. We can at least 'have a go' at writing up some suggested rules.

Frankly, I think 'anything goes' is pretty close to what we'll end up with.

 

[PatCarrington]

I've broken the 3rd poetry commandment and I seem to be okay with breaking God's 7th commandment. So, that's not so bad.

me too.

let's spill the rest, and then judge how bad it is.

 

[annaswirls]

me too.

let's spill the rest, and then judge how bad it is.

just don't post them at the courthouse or in schools damn it

 

[wildsweetone]

Poet suggestions for Ten Commandments

So far we agree on these two:

1. Show, don't tell.

2. End every line with the most meaningful word you can.

so working on:

3. One line strophes are verboten.

xterminal's thoughts:

Commandment the Third: One-line strophes are verboten.
As with one word on a line, a one-line strophe (for those unaware, a strophe is akin to a stanza. Stanzas are used in formal poetry, strophes in free. Any use of the word “stanza” in reference to a free verse poem is incorrect) telegraphs great importance to the reader. It is a device that should be used far less than the one-word-on-a-line device, because the discerning reader is going to interpret the whole poem based on the single line standing alone in its own strophe. Needless to say, it can be done, and it has been done, but it's often more effective, if the poem has a rhythm, to jar the rhythm instead. From the world of formal poetry, an example:

I made my song a coat
Covered with embroideries
Out of old mythologies
From heel to throat;
But the fools caught it,
Wore it in the world's eyes
As though they'd wrought it.
Song, let them take it,
For there's more enterprise
In walking naked.
(William Butler Yeats, 1914)

Read through not for meaning, the first time, but for the rhythm. It's got a strong beat to it, doesn't it? But then you get to line five, and instead of the beat you expect, you get the double-stress of “fools caught.” Yeats is signalling here that line five is the centerpiece of the poem. It's not subtle. In fact, it's rather easily caught (no pun intended). That those Yeats was addressing, his many imitators, didn't catch it was testimony to their foolishness.

As a side note, here's an excellent example of how a poem that is so steeped in image can trumpet value judgment without ever leaving the realm of image. There is one word (“fools”) and one construction (“there's more enterprise”) that are value judgments in the poem; everything else is image, and the vaguenesses complement the images (and vice-versa).

I'd love to use my favorite example of an effective single-line strophe here, but it came out of a college writing class I was in my freshman year of college, and I've long lost the poem.

My opinion:

It is useful to know and acknowledge the use of the strophe. It is useful to understand the relevance and reasoning it is used within a poem.

so, tentatively:

3. Use the strophe sparingly and it will be a powerful tool.


Any thoughts?

 

[Remec]

My opinion:
It is useful to know and acknowledge the use of the strophe. It is useful to understand the relevance and reasoning it is used within a poem.
so, tentatively:
3. Use the strophe sparingly and it will be a powerful tool.
Any thoughts?

Shouldn't that be "Use the one-line strophe sparingly...."? 'Cause, according to your source, all the freestanding sections of a free verse poem are strophes. (Not that I've ever heard the term before. <shrug> To me, from what I've ever learned or been told, sectional poems are composed of stanzas, no differentiation for rhyme or formalized structure. Seems I find more and more things to have to go back to class and/or books for.)

 

[wildsweetone]

See how much I know! lol


Okay dictionary defiinition:

stro·phe ( P ) Pronunciation Key (strf)
n.

1.
1. The first of a pair of stanzas of alternating form on which the structure of a given poem is based.
2. A stanza containing irregular lines.
2. The first division of the triad constituting a section of a Pindaric ode.
3.
1. The first movement of the chorus in classical Greek drama while turning from one side of the orchestra to the other.
2. The part of a choral ode sung while this movement is executed.


I'd never heard of it before reading xterminal's comments. *rolling eyes*


stan·za ( P ) Pronunciation Key (stnz)
n.

One of the divisions of a poem, composed of two or more lines usually characterized by a common pattern of meter, rhyme, and number of lines.



So, someone please enlighten me as to how a strophe can be one line?

And furthermore, why am I trying to learn about this stuff in the first place? lol I hate form! grrrr

 

[Reltne]

To end this thread with the ultimate resource!

Here is an authoritative source:

How to Write Good

by Michael O'Donoghue​

 

[Sins666]

Here is an authoritative source:

How to Write Good

by Michael O'Donoghue​

LOL! That was all a very good laugh.

 

[twelveoone]

Let's use this thread for anyone who wants to play about and practise any of the Ten Commandments discussed in the Ten Commandment Thread

Here's a direct link to xterminal's Live Journal where his Ten Commandments reside.

Briefly:
1. Show, don't tell.
2. End every line with the most meaningful word you can.
3. One line strophes are verboten.
4. No adverbs (words ending in ...ly).
5. No gerunds (words ending in ...ing).
6. Brevity is the soul of wit.
7. Free verse is free verse/rhyme is rhyme.
8. Avoid the 7 dirty words.
9. Hide the bodies.
10. Hit the books.


The idea.

Let's state the rule we are working on and then post our poem. Anyone can comment to say whether that rule has been adhered to or not, but if you think it hasn't met the basic criteria then state a clear reason why, with examples.

Brought this up, because of the Dogma thread; they are decent rules of thumb for beginning writers, in the pen and ink days the thumb accounted for 50% of normal writing. Most of us use keyboards, so the percent would be down to 20% now.

I think it is important that you read them, thought about them, but discover other viewpoints.

I agree only with #10; 100%
Agree with #1 only 90%

In accounting there is something called GAAP (generally accepted accounting practices)
In poetry, their maybe be something like GAPP (generally accepted poetry practices)
If I am going out on a limb here, forgive me; watch what Pat and Angeline do in the construction thread. Although my taste is more to annaswirls, and WickedEve, it would be difficult to emulate their styles and they do not always follow GAPP.
Watch what Pat and Angeline do, it is a shame Tarablackwood is no longer around.

 

[PatCarrington]

one rule i have and try to live by (though not always successfully) is this:

NO preaching, judgement, or sentimentality allowed.

 

[wildsweetone]

1201, When writing poetry I tend to write in longhand first. It just feels better to write poetry that way. Eventually after a few edits, I put it on my pc and then sometimes will work through several edits that way or add in a few by longhand.

I guess I don't really follow any particular rules either, except to allow whatever I write to have a little time in the editing process before I sit back and say I've finished.

I have been looking in on that construction thread, a lot goes over my head still.



Pat, I think the 'no judgement' is difficult because when we read a poem we automatically judge whether we like it or not and then go on to figure out what it is that we like or dislike. Therefore we are judging basing our judgement on our own personal preferences. But I think there is a vast difference from having our own judgement on a piece of poetry and allowing others to know our judgement.

If I am reviewing/critiquing, then I will hunt down something I like about a piece of writing and then find something that I feel could be improved upon. But then my comments are only from my own 'feelings' not really from any particular skill I have realised. Always there is the thought that I have no idea what I'm talking about (thanks to my school teacher) and therefore have no real right to make a comment.

I also believe that writing poetry is the same as writing prose in so far as our writing is very personal and unique to each person, so too are the processes for writing.

 

[PatCarrington]

Pat, I think the 'no judgement' is difficult because when we read a poem we automatically judge whether we like it or not and then go on to figure out what it is that we like or dislike. Therefore we are judging basing our judgement on our own personal preferences. But I think there is a vast difference from having our own judgement on a piece of poetry and allowing others to know our judgement.

WSO,

i meant when i write, not when i read.

i think, if there are to be 10 commandments for writing poetry (which is where this thread started), that should be one of them. when you write:

do not preach. do not be judgemental. do not allow sentimentality to creep into your writing.

when reading, of course everyone is going to judge a poem, and should.

 

[wildsweetone]

As my son would say, my bad.

So, when you write you try not to be judgemental in your writing. Does that mean (as I have been helped to understand ) that a poet should stick closely to stating facts?

When I write I write because of the 'feelings' I have about a subject... it's those feelings that I concentrate on trying to get onto paper. I don't make an obvious choice to write facts as such. Maybe that's what I'm not doing quite right.

 

[PatCarrington]

As my son would say, my bad.

So, when you write you try not to be judgemental in your writing. Does that mean (as I have been helped to understand ) that a poet should stick closely to stating facts?

When I write I write because of the 'feelings' I have about a subject... it's those feelings that I concentrate on trying to get onto paper. I don't make an obvious choice to write facts as such. Maybe that's what I'm not doing quite right.

i'm not sure "stating facts" is a good way to put it, wso.

many situations and much subject matter is prone to judgement. i just believe it is wise for a poet to present a situation for the reader to see rather than to tell them how you feel about it, or how they should feel about it.

it is my belief that that type of judgemental writing almost always weakens poetry.

 

[wildsweetone]

Gosh, so you're saying that a poet's feelings should try to stay out of the words of the poetry. Well that's something to think about that's for sure.

Can I ask you to do me a favour, if you have the time and inclination at some point? Can you have a look through my poetry and pick one out that you can comment on that uses judgemental writing? At this point, I'm thinking perhaps the War Wages one is what you're meaning. None of my poems are very long. I'd like to understand more about what you're saying. Maybe it would be a good idea to post one of yours here too so that I can see a comparison? Only if you don't mind, that is.

 

[twelveoone]

i'm not sure "stating facts" is a good way to put it, wso.

many situations and much subject matter is prone to judgement. i just believe it is wise for a poet to present a situation for the reader to see rather than to tell them how you feel about it, or how they should feel about it.

it is my belief that that type of judgemental writing almost always weakens poetry.

Objection- leading the witness.
IOW saying, show don't tell? Obviously you are going to colour it, so that they see it, the way you want them to, wouldn't be much art now, would it Pat? "Guernica" with expressionless faces?