Teh Power Exchange: a release from responsibility and accountabilty?

[MissTaken]

Scooter and I often joke about the choices we face. He will tell me that I am in charge and as such, I make the choices and am responsible for the consequences. We then jokingly discuss how nice it is for him to be able to be unaccountable for these choices in our life. However, there is some truth in what we are talking about.

Now, after reading some other threads here and thinking back to some of the real life bantering that goes on in my life, I thought we might want to discuss how being released from responsiblity plays into your BDSM.

With power comes responsibility, no?

With a transfer of power, accountability is also transferred?

Does anyone have any thoughts or experiences to share where this exchange of responsibility seems to have been used as an excuse, a rationalization for mistakes made?

 

[catalina_francisco]

With power comes responsibility, no?

With a transfer of power, accountability is also transferred?

Does anyone have any thoughts or experiences to share where this exchange of responsibility seems to have been used as an excuse, a rationalization for mistakes made?

I have to say for us, Francisco is the one forever reminding me he has assumed power and responsibility, and theoretically that absolves me of responsibility. It is not so easy for me in some situations to remember though as I have always been a loner and independent, and one of my ethics in life has always been to think and take responsibility for my actions etc., as opposed to thinking someone else can take the heat. It takes work constantly to remember this has changed to a degree, but still for me at this stage does not provide me with an excuse to have a clear conscience, or not be concerned about my actions.

The power has been transferred, and he does take responsibility for whatever final decisions are made and actions taken, but I have never seen it as reason to lightly brush off any of my own concerns or responsiibility in the eyes of others, or a reason to commit to TPE. They do not necessarily live our life, so they are going to judge me as an individual from their own understanding, which though it will not stop me obeying, it at times is in my mind.

I see it as a matter of I was aware before I committed to TPE what it meant, maybe more so now I live it 24/7. I knew it would be hard and never thought it would be a free ticket to never again be viewed as rresponsible. I was the one who initially took the responsibility of giving up my power, and all that comes with it...no-one forced me, no-one tricked me, no-one coerced me. Translated in my mind, that means that although I accept he now holds the power and is accountable, I made that choice of my own free will and as such am accountable for that overall exchange and consent, not irresponsible. Make sense?

Catalina

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

The way I see it, even with 24/7 TPE, we all still live in the real world, and being a real-world adult generally carries responsibilities outside of the home. While I have authority over my submissive, she carries a certain level of responsibility. She has the obligation to pay her bills, for instance, and as a Dom my only role would be to ensure that she does so. I suppose I could technically tell her not to pay her car payment, but the legal responsibility would fall on her. If I do nothing, I assume as part of our original agreement that her financial responsibilities remain hers. That's just one example, but there are certainly countless others where a submissive has to take care of their own business, and can't just pass it on to the Dom.

Of course, I have me the kick-ass uber-submissive, who is a grown-up, so I don't ever have to worry about her using her submission as a cop-out to avoid her responsibilities.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Scooter and I often joke about the choices we face. He will tell me that I am in charge and as such, I make the choices and am responsible for the consequences. We then jokingly discuss how nice it is for him to be able to be unaccountable for these choices in our life. However, there is some truth in what we are talking about.

Now, after reading some other threads here and thinking back to some of the real life bantering that goes on in my life, I thought we might want to discuss how being released from responsiblity plays into your BDSM.

With power comes responsibility, no?

With a transfer of power, accountability is also transferred?

Does anyone have any thoughts or experiences to share where this exchange of responsibility seems to have been used as an excuse, a rationalization for mistakes made?

To me its sort of saying one person can make any relationship work. That doesnt often happen and work out well as im sure some if not all of us have experienced at one point in our life. I view it as two becoming that one person and one picking up where the other leaves off. His hand or His arm...you are part of Him. He may control, but i would think would be aware enough of the whole power exchange to remember its an exchange and that everyone has weaknesses where others have strengths. Its more to me His ability to take the best in both of you and make perfection, or at least perfection for the two ppl in the relationship.(I used He because it was easier to keep the thought inside straight that way...insert she or he anyplace it fits for you )

 

[esclave_PP]

Just because Master owns me completely does not mean that I am without responsibility -- I have responsibility for my son, for my family obligations, and other things that Master requests of me. He has assumed the role and becomes responsible for me, but that still doesn't absolve me of personal responsibility. Again I agree with you Johnny, we are adults, we still need to be responsible. I think the interesting question here is what you brought up, do subs/slaves use it as an excuse to eek out of things...and I say to that, I would certainly hope not. Doesn't seem like an ethical thing to do.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Just because Master owns me completely does not mean that I am without responsibility -- I have responsibility for my son, for my family obligations, and other things that Master requests of me. He has assumed the role and becomes responsible for me, but that still doesn't absolve me of personal responsibility. Again I agree with you Johnny, we are adults, we still need to be responsible. I think the interesting question here is what you brought up, do subs/slaves use it as an excuse to eek out of things...and I say to that, I would certainly hope not. Doesn't seem like an ethical thing to do.

It isn't ethical, but it is an attitude that I have seem hints of from some submissives. Some subs I have talked to have even seemed to be looking almost solely for someone to be their "parent": pay all their bills, tell them what to do with every waking moment of their day, treat them like a dependent child, basically.

Also, there is a certain amount of displacement that seems to happen with some people, in that they cannot accept that their kink comes from inside themselves. So, what they do is find someone who shares their kink, and puts all the responsibility on them. You'll hear the whole "I'm not really into it, but Master likes it so I do it", which is sometimes true, and sometimes a complete crock of shit.

 

[esclave_PP]

Sometimes it is a crock and sometimes it isn't that's true. I don't know how often I've heard that -- and the sub/slave not mean it at all -- I would think most Masters or Mistresses would be able to tell if their submissive was "faking" it -- it is most annoying because the whole point IS to look inside yourself, revel in the changes and enjoy it for cripes sake -- what would be the point if it is just a game? I suppose there is a space for that out there, for what you call the "kinksters" -- just seems pointless though -- an exercise in mediocrity and falsehood. I suppose that sounds extreme though. But for those of us here who actually really do live and enjoy the lifestyle, it is disheartening to see this because I think in some ways that is what the public sees, the "doms" who are sugar daddies or the subs who are abused, wah wah wah...you know what I mean.

 

[MissTaken]

Re: Re: Teh Power Exchange: a release from responsibility and accountabilty?

I see it as a matter of I was aware before I committed to TPE what it meant, maybe more so now I live it 24/7. I knew it would be hard and never thought it would be a free ticket to never again be viewed as rresponsible. I was the one who initially took the responsibility of giving up my power, and all that comes with it...no-one forced me, no-one tricked me, no-one coerced me. Translated in my mind, that means that although I accept he now holds the power and is accountable, I made that choice of my own free will and as such am accountable for that overall exchange and consent, not irresponsible. Make sense?

Catalina

Thank you, catalina.
Yes, it makes sense!

 

[MissTaken]

Of course, I have me the kick-ass uber-submissive, who is a grown-up, so I don't ever have to worry about her using her submission as a cop-out to avoid her responsibilities.

Very nice

While I realize this wouldn't happen, what if you told her to go off the neighbor because the dog shit in your yard and she did?

Where does responsibility lie if she did this?

 

[MissTaken]

Re: Re: Teh Power Exchange: a release from responsibility and accountabilty?

To me its sort of saying one person can make any relationship work. That doesnt often happen and work out well as im sure some if not all of us have experienced at one point in our life. I view it as two becoming that one person and one picking up where the other leaves off. His hand or His arm...you are part of Him. He may control, but i would think would be aware enough of the whole power exchange to remember its an exchange and that everyone has weaknesses where others have strengths. Its more to me His ability to take the best in both of you and make perfection, or at least perfection for the two ppl in the relationship.(I used He because it was easier to keep the thought inside straight that way...insert she or he anyplace it fits for you )

Thank you.

But there is no such thing as perfection, right?

 

[MissTaken]

Just because Master owns me completely does not mean that I am without responsibility -- I have responsibility for my son, for my family obligations, and other things that Master requests of me. He has assumed the role and becomes responsible for me, but that still doesn't absolve me of personal responsibility. Again I agree with you Johnny, we are adults, we still need to be responsible. I think the interesting question here is what you brought up, do subs/slaves use it as an excuse to eek out of things...and I say to that, I would certainly hope not. Doesn't seem like an ethical thing to do.

Well, this is exactly what I was getting at.

How much personal responsibility remains with the submissive and is "Master or Mistress made me do it" a plausible reason for faulty judgement.

And yes, I have heard of submissives eeking out of taking care of themselves or taking responsibility for their choices while using the excuse that their Dominant was responsible.

 

[MissTaken]

It isn't ethical, but it is an attitude that I have seem hints of from some submissives. Some subs I have talked to have even seemed to be looking almost solely for someone to be their "parent": pay all their bills, tell them what to do with every waking moment of their day, treat them like a dependent child, basically.

.

And oddly enough, I have dated some Dominants who seemed to want a "parentified" subbie. They were very clear in wanting a subbie to be their breadwinner, pay their bills, clean their home, rewrite the constitution in Hebrew and smile while doing so.

And then, I dated a Dom who wanted a helpless subbie so he could teach her to check her oil, "show " her the hardware store etc.

Phew....I have dated a rather different bunch of guys!



As for us, scooter and I have also talked about responsibility and what is and isn't suitable for me to retain power over. There are two specific areas that while I am included and hopefully enhance, the responsibility and control are his....business and children.


In order to be a TPE, would it be necessary for me to take control for these things as well?

(I ask this for the sake of discussion and we are not terribly concerned what our relationship is labeled, classified as etc. It works for us. That is what matters.)

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

There is no reason why you can't designate your submissive to perform certain tasks for you...if you can make them perform oral sex on you, why can't you make them change the oil? And if you enjoy doing the cooking(as I do), why would you make your submissive do it?

 

[A Desert Rose]

...
(I ask this for the sake of discussion and we are not terribly concerned what our relationship is labeled, classified as etc. It works for us. That is what matters.)

One of the smartest things I have seen posted.

 

[MissTaken]

One of the smartest things I have seen posted.

Thank you, ADR.

There does seem to be a lot of fur flying over "real" subs, "real" Doms, "true" TPE.....


It is only as real as it is good for two people.

And many times, what seems to be a pure definition of a term has no relevance or feasibility in terms of daily life.

I know you agree, ADR, screw the labels.

 

[Etoile]

I know you agree, ADR, screw the labels.

That sounds...sticky!

I agree, your statement was one of the wisest to be made on this board in a long time.

 

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

Very nice

While I realize this wouldn't happen, what if you told her to go off the neighbor because the dog shit in your yard and she did?

Where does responsibility lie if she did this?

I'll answer this one. The responsibility would be shared by both of us. Johnny would bear part of the responsibility for having given the initial order, however, once I actually carried it out, the REST of the responsibility would be mine alone.

He can't control the extent of my "going off" on the neighbor. *grin* I could be a super bitch (highly unlikely) and really give the neighbor what for, or I could sweetly ask the neighbor to keep an eye on their dog. Either way, He doesn't have much control over what I'm going to say, and isn't the type of Dom to micro-manage the very content of my conversations.

The responsiblity is shared.

~anelize

 

[asenath]

There is no reason why you can't designate your submissive to perform certain tasks for you...if you can make them perform oral sex on you, why can't you make them change the oil? And if you enjoy doing the cooking(as I do), why would you make your submissive do it?

Change the oil? That might not be a smart thing to make someone do.. unless she knew how.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Thank you, ADR.

There does seem to be a lot of fur flying over "real" subs, "real" Doms, "true" TPE.....


It is only as real as it is good for two people.

And many times, what seems to be a pure definition of a term has no relevance or feasibility in terms of daily life.

I know you agree, ADR, screw the labels.

There is a lot of time spent on posting "who, what and why" we are whatever we preceive ourselves to be. That perception is reality to the individual(s) only, anyway. I just wonder how many times we have to define and redefine ourselves. I pretty much understand my own "who, what and why," as does the person I am involved with so, as you said "it is only as real as it is good for the two people."

And yes MissT, we seem to see things the same way on a great many issues. ;-)

 

[emme]

In theory, I agree with Spiderman’s uncle that with greater power comes greater responsibility. But I also believe, when I meet my Creator after I die, If questioned about why I did (or did not do) something, saying “Master said to” will be a very bad response.

I can not be able let go of the responsibility, so I guess that is why even though my husband makes most of the decisions, TPE isn’t an option.

 

[A Desert Rose]

... With a transfer of power, accountability is also transferred?
...

No, I don't think that is true. We are all accountable to some one at some time for something. For instance if one is employed, there is an employer to be accountable to. In the interest of this thread, I think Dom/Dommes and subs are accountable to each other, too.

In the simplest of examples, when a sub is given a task, she is expected to accomplish it to the best of her ability and report the outcome (be accountable) to her Dom/Domme.

I think though, that you have delved into the realm of ethics and morals and those are grey and relative areas and are influenced by different cultural and societal forces.

 

[catalina_francisco]

There is a lot of time spent on posting "who, what and why" we are whatever we preceive ourselves to be. That perception is reality to the individual(s) only, anyway. I just wonder how many times we have to define and redefine ourselves. I pretty much understand my own "who, what and why," as does the person I am involved with so, as you said "it is only as real as it is good for the two people."

I agree in part, though I don't think recent discussions and striving to understand each other's perspective and individual vision of themselves has actually been a fur flying effort to prove who is the truest or best at anything...just open discussion and sharing. Though we both know who we are, and what we want, it changes constantly...sometimes so miniscule it is easy to miss, sometimes bigger so it is a noticeable change. I feel most do this, though sometimes the process is not so noticeable, especially when you are one of the ones involved, don't you think? IMO the changing, the drifting to and fro, the experimentation, keeps us from stagnating, getting bored, and certainly contributes to evolving and knowing each other more each day. I would hate to think we ever reached a place where we decided that was it, there was no room for change, or another insight. I guess in part though that is my delight in exploring, delving deeper, peeling back the layers on all things in an effort to understand from a variety of perspectives.

Catalina

 

[A Desert Rose]

.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I don't think I said or alluded to any of the points you made in your post so why you choose mine to refer to makes me wonder. I never said anything about people changing or not changing... exploring or not or stagnating.

I certainly agree that you are entitled to your opinions and your desire to explore. I do mine on a more personal and private level and I am sure you would be more than willing to allow me that, wouldn't you?

I'm sorry you feel this was a personal slight against you. I get tired of quoting half a dozen posts to respond with one or two lines to each, and just see it as disjointed and not necessary, thus I often formulate a response to many statements in an overall single post. I chose your post because it was the most recent at the time I began formulating a response, and I thought it was a good one. Sorry to have inadvertently offended you. In future I will try not to make the same mistake.

Catalina

 

[A Desert Rose]

I'm sorry you feel this was a personal slight against you. I get tired of quoting half a dozen posts to respond with one or two lines to each, and just see it as disjointed and not necessary, thus I often formulate a response to many statements in an overall single post. I chose your post because it was the most recent at the time I began formulating a response, and I thought it was a good one. Sorry to have inadvertently offended you. In future I will try not to make the same mistake.

Catalina

I'm sorry you feel as you do about me too.