Technical question about formatting

[rwsteward]

Everyone,

A two year work in progress is at last seeing a bit of light at the end of the tunnel. I have a professional editor lined up.

Getting the cart way ahead of the horse, I've been looking at some of the publishing houses. Hence this question.

Some publishers want the first line of each paragraph indented by .5 inch.

NO TABS— NO spaces are to be used to indent the lines

(Manuscripts sent with tabs and spacing will be automatically rejected!)

No problem, I'll tell word to indent each paragraph by that amount———all 3194 of them.

But...

Some of those 3194 paragraphs are nothing but a single line of dialogue that gets indented.

So, is it correct to treat a single line of dialogue like a paragraph?

example:

------Blah stuff and more stuff, some yadda here and more blah. More stuff.
Blah stuff and more stuff, some yadda here and more blah. More stuff.
Blah stuff and more stuff, some yadda here and more blah. More stuff.
Blah stuff and more stuff, some yadda here and more blah. More stuff.
Blah stuff and more stuff, some yadda here and more blah. More stuff.
----- "Stuff someone says in one line," he said
----- "Stuff someone says in one line," she said
----- "Stuff someone says in one line," he said
----- Blah stuff and more stuff, some yadda here and more blah. More stuff.
Blah stuff and more stuff, some yadda here and more blah. More stuff.
Blah stuff and more stuff, some yadda here and more blah. More stuff.
Blah stuff and more stuff, some yadda here and more blah. More stuff.
Blah stuff and more stuff, some yadda here and more blah. More stuff.

I had to put in dashes as the forum text box isn't happy with tabs or spaces either
I know that's a rough example, but I hope everyone can see what I mean

Do you put a line space between the paragraphs?
Why aren't the stories on lit formatted this way?

It seems that the more I read about it, the more confused I get.

 

[Darkniciad]

Lit has formatting standards that are designed for reading on a computer screen. The extra white space is pretty much a necessity to keep your eyes from getting lost in the text. This is also the reason that experienced authors on the site break up paragraphs more than might be common in the printed word.

As to indenting for the publisher ( and I'm sure that SR will correct me if I'm wrong, though I'm reasonably confident in this one ): Yes, you do indeed indent even one word lines of dialogue, if indenting paragraphs is the requirement.

 

[rwsteward]

What about an extra line space between paragraphs?

It would seem to me that even in print you'd want the extra white space.

 

[Darkniciad]

I've never seen it done in print. Economics. White space = more dead trees = higher production costs.

You can follow printed word with your finger far easier than an online document, and it just doesn't bore into your head like a backlit computer screen does.

 

[PennLady]

What about an extra line space between paragraphs?

It would seem to me that even in print you'd want the extra white space.

Well, no, not necessarily. Grab any book off your shelf -- you'll most likely see indented graphs and no lines between them. For one thing, if you had blank lines between graphs in printed books, it'd up the costs as it'd require more paper (I worked for a newsletter publisher, and we only had one space after our sentences -- it used to be the rule was two spaces -- because it meant less paper used).

 

[sr71plt]

I'm not sure but what several issues are being squished together here.

I'm not real sure whether the question is how to submit it for publishers or how to submit it to Lit. (in light to this being quite different from submitting to publishers).

Yes, the two are quite different. Here it's single spaced, no indent, an extra line between paragraphs.

If you are submitting it to a publisher (or agent) and they haven't given contrary directions, you would be best served to double space, no extra lines between paragraphs, and you can just indent every paragraph. 0.5--and use 12-point Times New Roman (the Courier style is slowing dying out--it was specifically used in the typewriter era).

What you submit to the publisher will be much different from what you eventually see in the finished book (the publisher designs the book, not the author). What you are most likely to see there is single space, no extra line between paragraphs, and every paragraph indented 0.5, except, as you've noted, most book designs won't indent the first paragraph after any head or section divider.

But, again, what you submit to Lit. is different from what you'd normally submit to an editor for mainstream publishing. And what the publisher sets in the final book is different from what they want in a manuscript for editing.

 

[rwsteward]

Well, no, not necessarily. Grab any book off your shelf -- you'll most likely see indented graphs and no lines between them. For one thing, if you had blank lines between graphs in printed books, it'd up the costs as it'd require more paper (I worked for a newsletter publisher, and we only had one space after our sentences -- it used to be the rule was two spaces -- because it meant less paper used).

I hate to admit it, but I don't own a printed copy of a fiction book. They're all either on the iPad or Kindle.

But I did grab a copy of "HF Digital Handbook" and surprise, they indent the first paragraph while not adding an extra space between the paragraphs. I never really noticed it before.

 

[PennLady]

I hate to admit it, but I don't own a printed copy of a fiction book. They're all either on the iPad or Kindle.

But I did grab a copy of "HF Digital Handbook" and surprise, they indent the first paragraph while not adding an extra space between the paragraphs. I never really noticed it before.

Even on the iPad or Kindle, you should see the "usual" formatting of indented graphs -- not all the time, perhaps, but i think that has a lot more to do with lazy formatting, or glitches, than anything else.

But okay, next time you're in a bookstore, grab any fiction or nonfiction book and check it out. There will be different margins, different fonts, etc., but you will see it as single spaced, no lines between graphs (unless they are separating a scene) and indented graphs.

As SR says, though, it's different on Lit, and online in general. I think you need more separation on a screen, whether it's because of the back lighting or whatever. But trying to read a long graph on screen is very hard for me. But print and online are different animals, and you should check a publisher's submission guidelines for formatting before you send them anything.

 

[rwsteward]

Even on the iPad or Kindle, you should see the "usual" formatting of indented graphs -- not all the time, perhaps, but i think that has a lot more to do with lazy formatting, or glitches, than anything else.

But okay, next time you're in a bookstore, grab any fiction or nonfiction book and check it out. There will be different margins, different fonts, etc., but you will see it as single spaced, no lines between graphs (unless they are separating a scene) and indented graphs.

As SR says, though, it's different on Lit, and online in general. I think you need more separation on a screen, whether it's because of the back lighting or whatever. But trying to read a long graph on screen is very hard for me. But print and online are different animals, and you should check a publisher's submission guidelines for formatting before you send them anything.

I've been hammering through Steven King's The Stand (talk about a bloated story) on my Kindle and there are indents at the start of each paragraph and a line space between them.

I've been checking out the various publishers and found they do have some unusual requirements. Of course, I'm still a bit from from that problem. I still have the query letters and the dreaded synopsis. Of course the dozens of rejections forms.

Playing with a backup copy, getting the global find and replace for invisible style control embedded commands to work is a bit tricky

 

[PennLady]

I've been hammering through Steven King's The Stand (talk about a bloated story) on my Kindle and there are indents at the start of each paragraph and a line space between them.

I've been checking out the various publishers and found they do have some unusual requirements. Of course, I'm still a bit from from that problem. I still have the query letters and the dreaded synopsis. Of course the dozens of rejections forms.

Playing with a backup copy, getting the global find and replace for invisible style control embedded commands to work is a bit tricky

Oh I love The Stand! I even read the unabridged version -- in paperback!

What you say about formatting does not surprise me. At the moment, there doesn't seem to be much uniformity. As I understand it, what happens is the publisher submits a file to Amazon, and then someone there converts it to Kindle format. But I have over 150 books on mine and there's all kinds of different formatting, and different errors.

Ultimately, you'll need to look at the publisher's submission and formatting guidelines and make sure you conform to them. I find it easiest to not use any kind of coded, style formatting in my stuff; I mean, mostly I type with the idea of the stories popping up on Lit, so I use my font and margins and single spacing b/c I know roughly how many words I'll get on a page with that. I'd rather put tabs, etc., in myself manually. But I fix it when I send stuff into my publisher.

 

[rwsteward]

Looks like I'm going to use a no-style word document like I always do, make copies of it and then global find and replace as needed. Of course, that's assuming I make it that far. I have a long way to go, but it was something I wanted to know about just in case I wasn't able to make the changes in word.

not to hijack the thread I started, but i'm about half way through "The Stand" and after I read King's book on writing it seems that he's breaking some of his own rules. While he said the road to hell is paved with adverbs, he sure uses a lot of them.

'he said hauntingly, she said queerly, he moaned cautiously'

oh well back to work

 

[PennLady]

Looks like I'm going to use a no-style word document like I always do, make copies of it and then global find and replace as needed. Of course, that's assuming I make it that far. I have a long way to go, but it was something I wanted to know about just in case I wasn't able to make the changes in word.

not to hijack the thread I started, but i'm about half way through "The Stand" and after I read King's book on writing it seems that he's breaking some of his own rules. While he said the road to hell is paved with adverbs, he sure uses a lot of them.

'he said hauntingly, she said queerly, he moaned cautiously'

oh well back to work

LOL Maybe The Stand was the learning experience he needed to write On Writing?

 

[sr71plt]

As I recall in reading On Writing King says that he doesn't consistently follow his own advice. I don't recall a great deal of technical writing advice in that book at all. I enjoyed it more as a backgrounder to his own writing.

I'm not of the "kill every adverb" school myself. If I have to do contortions to get around not using one, I go ahead and use it. I actually don't think much about using adverbs at all in my writing. I think the ban on them is just another trend phase.

 

[PennLady]

As I recall in reading On Writing King says that he doesn't consistently follow his own advice. I don't recall a great deal of technical writing advice in that book at all. I enjoyed it more as a backgrounder to his own writing.

I'm not of the "kill every adverb" school myself. If I have to do contortions to get around not using one, I go ahead and use it. I actually don't think much about using adverbs at all in my writing. I think the ban on them is just another trend phase.

Well, true, you don't need to eradicate them. I find, however, that in a lot of places they don't add anything. I usually get around it in the case of dialogue tags by not using a tag. I'll do more like "[statement] She gave him a queer look." But sometimes an adverb is the way to go.