Teaching Characters a Lesson!

[Brutal_One]

Another character related post. For a one off story I submitted it explores the dynamics between two couples. There is the relationship between the 2 females with the suggestion (but not explicit) that one female character believes she is superior to her friend (there is a cultural element) at the same time she is a bit of a prick tease (even with current boyfriend) so Sex but not the kinks the boyfriend might want. There is also the dynamic between the couples in the lust that each man may have for his partners girlfriend and vice-versa.

The story plot at its conclusion significantly changes the dynamics between the four of them. In particular the aloof character.

These are one off characters for the story but was curious if other authors explore this type of inter-character dynamic between two or more couples and how you found it. Do you ever write to ‘teach the character a lesson? {note: not the same thing as developing / educating a character in a series - this is in one off story context} Brutal One.

 

[Rustyoznail]

Not in your context, but I did have a female character punch a real prick in the nose and break it.

It was actually a very satisfying thing to write.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

That probably describes about half the Loving Wives category.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Not as in "teaching a lesson," but as a power play, yes, I've written characters like that. Or where two alphas meet their match in the other. I do that a lot, actually, thinking about it.

 

[Voboy]

Occasionally.

Depends on whether I like the character or not. Very often, my less likeable characters get a karmic visitation, but it's usually more humiliating or funny than painful.

 

[AwkwardMD]

I strive to include character growth in every single story. Usually, multiple characters.

 

[NotWise]

Apparently not relevant.

 

[SimonDoom]

I don't really do this, in those terms. I see a stark difference between crafting a character that learns something over the course of the story -- that's my approach -- and coming up with a character that needs to be "taught a lesson." My issue with the latter approach is that it suggests that the author by writing fiction is projecting a sense of grievance against the world that must be righted, and that's not how I think. This is the attitude I see in the Loving Wives revenge stories, and it's a disturbing attitude, to me, because it speaks to an authorship and readership that enjoys wallowing in a fictional world where women are wronging men all the time and need to get their comeuppance -- and I don't get wanting to spend time in that fictional world.

I don't mean to suggest that's what the OP is talking about. But it's where my mind goes when I see the subject raised as wanting to create characters who need to be taught lessons, rather than characters who move to a more positive place by learning something through an erotic encounter or experience.

 

[Salacious_Scribe]

In my Agatha Allbut series, the Protagonist gets sweet revenge on her bullies. Not quite the same thing but I think they learned their lesson.

 

[Brutal_One]

I don't really do this, in those terms. I see a stark difference between crafting a character that learns something over the course of the story -- that's my approach -- and coming up with a character that needs to be "taught a lesson." My issue with the latter approach is that it suggests that the author by writing fiction is projecting a sense of grievance against the world that must be righted, and that's not how I think. This is the attitude I see in the Loving Wives revenge stories, and it's a disturbing attitude, to me, because it speaks to an authorship and readership that enjoys wallowing in a fictional world where women are wronging men all the time and need to get their comeuppance -- and I don't get wanting to spend time in that fictional world.

I don't mean to suggest that's what the OP is talking about. But it's where my mind goes when I see the subject raised as wanting to create characters who need to be taught lessons, rather than characters who move to a more positive place by learning something through an erotic encounter or experience.

Simon,

I get the sentiment and in general agree hence the comment about development and education for a full character. This was however an attempt to show it can be the case that some people in reality are “full of it” and I think it can also be the case that certain people can have a ‘better than you’ attitude although it may not be overt it can still exist. Maybe at times the ‘get their comeuppance’ may be warranted.

I can’t comment on the LW category as it’s not a category I write for or have an interest in. I do agree however with your general point and for main characters it’s a lot more of education and development - ie healthier.

Brutal One

EDIT: my bad. You were not making any reference to the LW category but maybe it was another comment elsewhere in the thread.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

I get the sentiment and in general agree hence the comment about development and education for a full character. This was however an attempt to show it can be the case that some people in reality are “full of it” and I think it can also be the case that certain people can have a ‘better than you’ attitude although it may not be overt it can still exist. Maybe at times the ‘get their comeuppance’ may be warranted...
.

This is using a story to project a sense of grievance and using a character as the target of the desire for revenge, or as you put it, comeuppance, or as Simon put it, righting the perceived wrong.

Maybe you find it cathartic. There are lots of reasons you might do it, but it seems like a good idea to recognize what you're doing and be sure it's really what you want to create.

 

[Omenainen]

Oh, no. I love my characters. I definitely don’t want to “teach them a lesson”. Sometimes they fuck up on their own and then I’ll try to rescue them because I’m a sucker for happily ever after.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

Oh, no. I love my characters. I definitely don’t want to “teach them a lesson”. Sometimes they fuck up on their own and then I’ll try to rescue them because I’m a sucker for happily ever after.

Some characters just can't stay out of trouble, can they?

 

[Kumquatqueen]

I'm definitely too nice. My last story had a nice buildup, then the then skipped to catharsis where the protagonists resolved their issues, but making them have the necessary argument to get the plot to move was the toughest bit of all. It needed the whole rest of the story to be done and edited before I knew the guy's well enough to get the misunderstandings and assumptions to work. In future I'll try to stick to one-line summaries of the harsh stuff, simply because I'm writing for fun.

 

[Omenainen]

Some characters just can't stay out of trouble, can they?

Some learn from the mistakes of others and some not even from their own. It’s not my responsibility to teach them, I just write them out.

 

[Omenainen]

I'm definitely too nice. My last story had a nice buildup, then the then skipped to catharsis where the protagonists resolved their issues, but making them have the necessary argument to get the plot to move was the toughest bit of all. It needed the whole rest of the story to be done and edited before I knew the guy's well enough to get the misunderstandings and assumptions to work. In future I'll try to stick to one-line summaries of the harsh stuff, simply because I'm writing for fun.

Ha, I can so relate to this. My guys tend to be kinda passive aggressive, they just sulk and leave, because I don’t want to have them fight. Or then there’s the pain of something conveniently outside the story, like a divorce that’s already happened. But I’m not here to write fights and divorces, so I guess it’s alright to not want to get better at it.

 

[SimonDoom]

Simon,

I get the sentiment and in general agree hence the comment about development and education for a full character. This was however an attempt to show it can be the case that some people in reality are “full of it” and I think it can also be the case that certain people can have a ‘better than you’ attitude although it may not be overt it can still exist. Maybe at times the ‘get their comeuppance’ may be warranted.

I can’t comment on the LW category as it’s not a category I write for or have an interest in. I do agree however with your general point and for main characters it’s a lot more of education and development - ie healthier.

Brutal One

EDIT: my bad. You were not making any reference to the LW category but maybe it was another comment elsewhere in the thread.

There's an appropriate place in stories for characters who get "taught their lesson" and I hope you didn't see my comment as a criticism of your post or thread. Some story characters deserve to be taught their lesson: Uriah Heep, Captain Ahab, MacBeth, Michael Corleone, to name just a few. There's nothing wrong with writing such characters.

In the context of erotica it's an interesting question, because when men are the authors and the women characters are the ones being taught lessons it's not hard to see that it's an exercise in projecting a strong sense of grievance against the world, that involves women as the source of the grievance. I'm not saying that's what you're talking about but when you raised the issue in the thread that was what I thought of, in the context of Loving Wives stories.

 

[NotWise]

In the context of erotica it's an interesting question, because when men are the authors and the women characters are the ones being taught lessons it's not hard to see that it's an exercise in projecting a strong sense of grievance against the world, that involves women as the source of the grievance. I'm not saying that's what you're talking about but when you raised the issue in the thread that was what I thought of, in the context of Loving Wives stories.

The original question was about changing the dynamics within two or more couples. I thought your diversion to LW was irrelevant. But hey, irrelevant happens.

 

[lovecraft68]

In the context of erotica it's an interesting question, because when men are the authors and the women characters are the ones being taught lessons it's not hard to see that it's an exercise in projecting a strong sense of grievance against the world, that involves women as the source of the grievance. I'm not saying that's what you're talking about but when you raised the issue in the thread that was what I thought of, in the context of Loving Wives stories.

Its exactly what he's talking about.

Cold male insecurity oozes out of the pores of a lot of self proclaimed doms and alphas. Then its heightened when they need to come here to start a conversation about what they're doing, possibly fishing for "yeah, teach that bitch" comments.

BTB crowd is past insecurity-and even coherence-and just oozes raw hatred.

That's also what oozes from me whenever discussing that crowd. BTB stories are trash written by trash for trash. Torture porn for bitter angry nasty impotent incels

Excuse me for not being polite or subtle. Shit doesn't deserve to be treated with anything resembling courtesy.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

The original question was about changing the dynamics within two or more couples. I thought your diversion to LW was irrelevant. But hey, irrelevant happens.

Actually, the OP made it very clear that it was about "comeuppance." That's pretty much the LW BTB theme. I think LW BTB is just an example of using the story to "teach a lesson" to people by proxy. The OP made that even more clear with his clarification.

 

[gunhilltrain]

Oh, no. I love my characters. I definitely don’t want to “teach them a lesson”. Sometimes they fuck up on their own and then I’ll try to rescue them because I’m a sucker for happily ever after.

Usually what goes wrong - mostly for my male characters, actually - is that they have unrealistic romantic expectations that can't be met. I think I'm trying to show that in our present society, LTRs and even marriages are unstable because of various social forces that are not anybody's "fault" per se. And I'm not usually in the present era with Tinder and all that. (I don't think I could stand Tinder.)

I do have one guy (it's not published yet) who stumbles into abrupt and meaningless encounters with a woman with "hypersexual disorder" (formerly known as nymphomania). That results in some grief.

I'm even foolishly planning a second foray into LW. I'll see how that goes.

 

[NotWise]

Actually, the OP made it very clear that it was about "comeuppance." That's pretty much the LW BTB theme. I think LW BTB is just an example of using the story to "teach a lesson" to people by proxy. The OP made that even more clear with his clarification.

So I removed my original reply, which I thought was actually relevant to the OP. If all you want to talk about is woman-hating posters to LW, then go ahead.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

So I removed my original reply, which I thought was actually relevant to the OP. If all you want to talk about is woman-hating posters to LW, then go ahead.

You said Simon's reply wasn't relevant, and I disagreed with you. I did not tell you your reply wasn't relevant. Just because I think Simon's reply was relevant doesn't mean yours wasn't.

As for the woman-hating posters to LW, that's certainly not "all" I want to talk about. I said that the BTB themes were an example of the "comeuppance" the OP was talking about, and that was directly in explanation of why I believed Simon's response was relevant.

I can't imagine why you would go and delete your original reply just because I think Simon's was relevant or because you think it's all I want to talk about. Since when don't you share your opinion just because someone disagrees with something you said or interpreted a post differently?

 

[Brutal_One]

Ignorance time I am not familiar with the BTB acronym. Whatever it is it does not sound positive. Also I guess I can make the point here too that I am not and never have been a ‘woman hater’ - quite the opposite. In reference to the story I referenced there was really no cathartic part in the writing, at least not consciously. In writing I did not like the female characters attitude of superiority (as I chose to write it) in particular with her friend. Now I know this is an f on f dynamic so maybe that is just totally unrealistic but I have been aware of females I care about seemingly being on the end of this. I think we can all maybe accept (and feel free to shoot me down in flames) that girls can be real bitches to each other and in particular bullying. For guys a playground fight is normally done and they move on. My experience is that girls don’t. That was probably what came out in the writing. But it’s not cathartic as it is not what happed to me.

Sometimes I do find it odd what interpretations some people make when creating a thread about elements of writing. Maybe I should just stop doing that. Brutal One

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

Ignorance time I am not familiar with the BTB acronym. Whatever it is it does not sound positive. Also I guess I can make the point here too that I am not and never have been a ‘woman hater’ - quite the opposite. In reference to the story I referenced there was really no cathartic part in the writing, at least not consciously. In writing I did not like the female characters attitude of superiority (as I chose to write it) in particular with her friend. Now I know this is an f on f dynamic so maybe that is just totally unrealistic but I have been aware of females I care about seemingly being on the end of this. I think we can all maybe accept (and feel free to shoot me down in flames) that girls can be real bitches to each other and in particular bullying. For guys a playground fight is normally done and they move on. My experience is that girls don’t. That was probably what came out in the writing. But it’s not cathartic as it is not what happed to me.

Sometimes I do find it odd what interpretations some people make when creating a thread about elements of writing. Maybe I should just stop doing that. Brutal One

BTB stands for "Burn the Bitch." For some reason, the Loving Wives category has a very high percentage of stories that are not about swingers, cuckholds, or open marriages, but about women who cheat on their husbands. The stories don't focus on erotic sex, but on revenge taken against the cheating woman. There is a large contingent of readers in that category who get very angry if the cheating woman is not "taught a lesson." The comments authors get if the "bitch" isn't "burned" are legendarily caustic and sometimes vile.