Swinging

[BiBunny]

I agree with you, Netz, 100%, and I honestly can't see how people don't see that behavior like that which was outlined in the first post is offensive, insulting, and just plain hurtful. I also don't see how you can argue with women who've been in this boat before and tell them that they have no right to feel the way they feel when they're being exploited. Hooray for straight privilege, I suppose.

But it wasn't you they were talking about doing the "screaming." 'Twas me, as it's something I always get blamed for, because God knows if you try to be nice to people who are convinced they're right, you might as well be talking to a brick wall. And with that, I'm out, as I should've been much earlier as I said I would be.

 

[A Desert Rose]

I agree, that if you're in a swing club, you're probably not looking for anything that critical. However, I think there's a fairly normal human assumption that if someone wants to have sex with you it MIGHT be because they're attracted to you. Is that really that strange? Benefit of the doubt is one thing, but the OP itself was worded in a way that didn't really tell me if the person was or was not going to be on any KIND of up and up because it basically reduced the third party to a thing.

I know that's not what Gigi did - or what she's about. But if you read at face value, it's not telling you a lot. It tells you just a few things.

Some people love being a fuck-object - was it somehow unclear that I said that?

This game, taken PURELY at face value - is on the moral level of "dogfight" or "I lost a bet."
Those are both pretty ugly, but I'm ok with people's right to be ugly.
I'm just not going to pet them on the head and make them think they're being nice.

I've picked up people for shits and giggles.
I've not called and not written, and I was very clear via discussion and NOT just context, what was up. Their inability to read context was very dumbass as you said. I've been less than nice, often, and happily, but I've never asked anyone to reassure me that I'm really RIGHT. Or nice. Or anything other than selfish and exploitative and predatory.


And you never did answer my second part of the question, about how good it would feel if someone approached you and you thought it was out of attraction to find out it was out of some kind of commodification or "dare."

I don't know who you hang out with but every queer woman I know has been approached like this, and every one has been pretty turned off by it.

Being turned off and "screaming" are two different things though, but hey, that's not a new accusation for people who are tired of being exploited. A little exploitation should make you more polite, huh? No, in fact, don't say anything because YOU might make someone feel bad, you bitch, I get it. If someone talks about your kind as though they're fucking pieces of saturday night steak, just smile, because they're not asking you out. I think I managed to point out some of the issues without "screaming" in any way shape or form. I really don't understand your bringing up random acts of showing sexual interest into this mix at all, frankly. I don't think anyone's uncomfortable with people showing interest in them - interest in THEM. Sexual interest in them, not making them a science project.

I don't have to hand-hold people who can't see how the thought process outlined in the wording of the first post, is exploitative and objectifying and not in that cool SSC kind of fashion.


This thread took a turn for the moronic though since I thought I should leave. I should have. There's no need to get venal and personal and shitheaded when you want to be critical of something. I generally don't go for the low blow and I don't think my disagreements with people make them horrid people.

I was spoiled by college, we'd do this kind of thing and then go have coffee. Not because it's this passive-aggressive thing, but because I don't demand that my friends share my ideas about things.

I agree with this, which is off topic and I'm sorry. I'll get on topic again maybe.

I've always said I don't have a litmus test for friends. They don't have to share my political views or my views on choice/no choice or my sexual choices or anything else. I can still be friends with people who are diametrically different from me on lots of things. And I am.

On topic: I don't think I've ever been approached by another woman, in a sexual context. I don't want to think that it's because I'm ugly, so I can lie to myself and be happy. But if I ever were, I know what my reaction would be. "No, but gee, thanks for the attention."

 

[Netzach]

I agree with this, which is off topic and I'm sorry. I'll get on topic again maybe.

I've always said I don't have a litmus test for friends. They don't have to share my political views or my views on choice/no choice or my sexual choices or anything else. I can still be friends with people who are diametrically different from me on lots of things. And I am.

On topic: I don't think I've ever been approached by another woman, in a sexual context. I don't want to think that it's because I'm ugly, so I can lie to myself and be happy. But if I ever were, I know what my reaction would be. "No, but gee, thanks for the attention."

I think off this topic is possibly a good thing.

And that's pretty much the optimal answer if someone's into you and you're not into them. When I've had faulty gaydar and hit on the uninterested, people have generally made me feel fine about it by answering thus. Of course it takes a few drinks for me to get up the nerve one way or the other.

To be hit on by other women isn't easy, I don't think I'm ugly and it happens very infrequently. Showing up where they are is one thing, and then flagging availability is another, which isn't something I really telegraph much.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I agree with you, Netz, 100%, and I honestly can't see how people don't see that behavior like that which was outlined in the first post is offensive, insulting, and just plain hurtful. I also don't see how you can argue with women who've been in this boat before and tell them that they have no right to feel the way they feel when they're being exploited. Hooray for straight privilege, I suppose.

But it wasn't you they were talking about doing the "screaming." 'Twas me, as it's something I always get blamed for, because God knows if you try to be nice to people who are convinced they're right, you might as well be talking to a brick wall. And with that, I'm out, as I should've been much earlier as I said I would be.

BB, I sometimes think you love the attention it gets you by continuously making comments about how you are always blamed etc. What makes you so special you feel it is always all about you? Beats me. You seem to think you're opinion wins out over all and while you should be respected for your opinion, if anyone doesn't share it they are obviously wrong and looking for a fight...why is it OK to expect people to respect your right to an opinion, but not alright for others to expect the same?

Bottom line of it all is if you are going to go to a swingers club and expect people to approach you with the exact intent and purpose you want them to, you are sadly going to be disappointed. I knew a Dom who frequented swingers clubs far more than lifestyle ones, and he said he often didn't find the women he fucked attractive enough for his taste to approach in a vanilla setting or through an online ad, but as he said, he was there for fucking, not forming relationships. People go there primarily for sex...if you are there, they are going to assume you are approachable...if you don't fancy them for whatever reason, just say no, not launch into a hissy fit about their PC incorrect intentions according to you, simple as that...no-one forces anyone to do anything they don't want from what I hear.

Personally I don't see it that different from the agreement you have spoken of here on several occasions that if you have sex with a guy, he has to have sex with bi kitty too and vv, no other choice...what if he doesn't want to fuck her or her sex partner doesn't want to fuck you when they get to meet you...sounds like unlike Gigi and Carlos who would give women a choice, your sexual partners are not afforded the choice option once they fuck one or the other of you? That to me would be far more offensive on a personal level, and hardly respecting their feelings and freedom of choice.

Catalina

 

[BiBunny]

BB, I sometimes think you love the attention it gets you by continuously making comments about how you are always blamed etc. What makes you so special you feel it is always all about you? Beats me. You seem to think you're opinion wins out over all and while you should be respected for your opinion, if anyone doesn't share it they are obviously wrong and looking for a fight...why is it OK to expect people to respect your right to an opinion, but not alright for others to expect the same?

Bottom line of it all is if you are going to go to a swingers club and expect people to approach you with the exact intent and purpose you want them to, you are sadly going to be disappointed. I knew a Dom who frequented swingers clubs far more than lifestyle ones, and he said he often didn't find the women he fucked attractive enough for his taste to approach in a vanilla setting or through an online ad, but as he said, he was there for fucking, not forming relationships. People go there primarily for sex...if you are there, they are going to assume you are approachable...if you don't fancy them for whatever reason, just say no, not launch into a hissy fit about their PC incorrect intentions according to you, simple as that...no-one forces anyone to do anything they don't want from what I hear.

And your brand of passive-aggressive is so much better, eh? If I were starved for attention, I'd start a pic thread. *Shrug*

Personally I don't see it that different from the agreement you have spoken of here on several occasions that if you have sex with a guy, he has to have sex with bi kitty too and vv, no other choice...what if he doesn't want to fuck her or her sex partner doesn't want to fuck you when they get to meet you...sounds like unlike Gigi and Carlos who would give women a choice, your sexual partners are not afforded the choice option once they fuck one or the other of you? That to me would be far more offensive on a personal level, and hardly respecting their feelings and freedom of choice.

Catalina

Um, yeah, I've never said that any of my partners HAD to play with one another. It just usually shakes out that way. Actually, I've said time and again that one of the first things I always do around potential partners is to mention Kitty. If the next phrase out of his mouth is something about a threesome, then the conversation stops right there. No faster way to lose my attention that to assume that just because I'm bi and have a girlfriend that he automatically gets a free pass with her, regardless of my feelings or hers.

Yeah, I prefer if my partners all enjoy each other enough to play together, but if they don't, that's fine. I don't know where you came up with that idea.

 

[A Desert Rose]

I don't know about anyone else but where I am it's a beautiful day, I'm breathing and sewing and doing stuff I love, I talked to both my children today and we all shared "I love you's".

Look around yourself. I'm sure it's beautiful where you are, too. This shit is not worth battling words over.

So, let it go.

 

[00Syd]

I don't know about anyone else but where I am it's a beautiful day, I'm breathing and sewing and doing stuff I love, I talked to both my children today and we all shared "I love you's".

Look around yourself. I'm sure it's beautiful where you are, too. This shit is not worth battling words over.

So, let it go.

Actually, its raining.


(Sorry, sorry, I couldn't resist, didn't mean anything by that comment either way, etc. etc. Carry on)

 

[Bi_Kitty]

Personally I don't see it that different from the agreement you have spoken of here on several occasions that if you have sex with a guy, he has to have sex with bi kitty too and vv, no other choice...what if he doesn't want to fuck her or her sex partner doesn't want to fuck you when they get to meet you...sounds like unlike Gigi and Carlos who would give women a choice, your sexual partners are not afforded the choice option once they fuck one or the other of you? That to me would be far more offensive on a personal level, and hardly respecting their feelings and freedom of choice.

Catalina

First of all, I am a grown woman. I will have sex with who I want, not with whom I'm told I have to have sex with. Secondly, in Bunny and mine relationship we don't have to play with the other partners, it just happens to fall that way most of the time.

If Bunny finds an interest in my partner than she can share the experience but oh the other hand if she doesn't find in an interest in him, partner and I will do our own thing and that's it. Our partners are adults and they have a mind of their own--SO I LET THEM DO THEIR OWN THINKING!!!!!

Um, yeah, I've never said that any of my partners HAD to play with one another. It just usually shakes out that way. Actually, I've said time and again that one of the first things I always do around potential partners is to mention Kitty. If the next phrase out of his mouth is something about a threesome, then the conversation stops right there. No faster way to lose my attention that to assume that just because I'm bi and have a girlfriend that he automatically gets a free pass with her, regardless of my feelings or hers.

Yeah, I prefer if my partners all enjoy each other enough to play together, but if they don't, that's fine. I don't know where you came up with that idea.

As Bunny stated, when we are talking to someone new and mention the girlfriend it isn't so there can be a threesome or he having more than one girlfriend.

I normally don't get pissed about stuff on the part of the board because I rarely read it. But when I do read it, I find it very offensive that someone who isn't interested in women would talk about approaching a woman just because a god damn MAN told her to. Obviously, you people who say I don't see what the big fuss is over about have never been in that situation before or feel like you have been put under a fucking spotlight because you are the freak-show for a god damn MAN. (I'm so mad right now, that I don't even know if this is going to make sense.)

 

[HottieMama]

I find it very offensive that someone who isn't interested in women would talk about approaching a woman just because a god damn MAN told her to. Obviously, you people who say I don't see what the big fuss is over about have never been in that situation before or feel like you have been put under a fucking spotlight because you are the freak-show for a god damn MAN.

Made perfect sense to me. Sleeping with women is not a "circus act" for me like i said earlier and i resent those that would treat it as such.

 

[unpredictablebijou]

On topic: I don't think I've ever been approached by another woman, in a sexual context. I don't want to think that it's because I'm ugly, so I can lie to myself and be happy. But if I ever were, I know what my reaction would be. "No, but gee, thanks for the attention."

How ya doin'? *waggling eyebrows*

There. Now you're in the club. How's it feel?


I've been reading this thread with great interest and I've gotta say I don't see two sides in this, but many sides.

In this case it's a swing club, so yeah, if I'm a bi woman in that context I'm probably not there looking for True Lurve or anything. In that sense, the common situation that Bunny was justifiably annoyed by may not really apply.

In another, more generalized context and thread, though, I might find myself expressing similar sentiments; there's a lot more of the "I'll kiss you to turn my boyfriend on" crap going on in the world than there was when I was a youngster, and for those women who are, say, in a social gathering hoping to meet other bi women, this can be distracting and hurtful. So I can see where Bunny is coming from.

But this is sport fucking, obviously, (not a damn thing wrong with that, as such, as far as I'm concerned, so long as everyone's clear on the goal) and in that context all bets are off, as far as the longer-term attraction and relationship are concerned.

The posts from the original message that Hottie Mama quoted above do seem to imply that there was a bit of deception going on. Even in a swing club, if someone said honestly to me, 'yeah, I'm not really into girls and I'm doing this so my boyfriend can watch,' I bet I'd pass on that, because frankly, it's WAY more fun to fuck girls who are actually into it for their own pleasure than to try to get into it with a chick who isn't really having the same experience I am. I do hope that the approach was THAT honest, and if you approach it that way and still find a chick like me who would be okay with that, well, good for you.

Nuff said.

bj

 

[BiYeti]

Jeez, folks. Thanks for reminding me why I STOPPED going to message boards in the first place. And I thought a BDSM board would be a nice place.

 

[Breaker_Morant]

A question or two..

It is an extremely exclusive Swing Club here in the heart of Midtown at Atlanta. So exclusive in fact that the residential (yes I said residential) neighborhood it is located in has no idea it is a Swing Club.

For those of you who care to know, we had a blast last night. This particular club is set up in a intimate setting. They do not allow any singles in- you must be a part of a couple to attend. $250 per couple gets you in the door, a 5 course dinner, all the drinks you can stomach (which I personally disagree with but oh well), a private room with lockers and bath facilities, access to the public rooms, the roman baths, and breakfast bar after all the events conclude.
We arrived at 8 pm for dinner and sat down to eat with 6 other couples, some of which Carlos knows and others he does not. During dinner everyone asked me questions and I naturally answered them. Everyone came to the knowledge that this was my first time, that I am completely straight, and I am in training with Carlos as my assumed Dominant.
After dinner, we interacted with and mingled with other couples, (there were about 100 different couples there all together) in a casual friendly and environment over drinks with no expectations and NO TOUCHING. In the front room, it looks and acts just like an average dinner club. In the back is where the action is had... if you choose to take part. Once in the back you receive the key to your room where you can disrobe and again mingle with the other couples and interact however you choose.
We met up with our friends from dinner again after we went to the back, however I really didn't feel connection with any of them on the level I require to be sexually involved. Without disappointment, Carlos and I eventually enjoyed each other in our private room and played until about 2:30. Once sated, we went back up front and had a wonderful breakfast with our new friends were I was mercilessly teased about my new experience.

In the future I would suggest questions being posed rather than assumptions being made. No one wants others to assume things about them, so why would I be any different?

Okay, I have a question.. and I since you'd rather be asked than being called out, I'll do just that (and pose the question).

I've quoted a couple of your previous statements and I have to admit in my mind (remember I'm minoring in urban planning) things just don't add up.

1) If the club is in a residential neighborhood, don't you think the neighbors would know? Wouldn't they notice all the cars coming and going? All the people walking to the building?

2) $250 a head? Lockers and all that stuff? Must be the size of hotel or something..

So I'm wondering about the following?

How is the place zoned? If it is a residential neighborhood and there is a commerical plot in the middle of it then how could that have been kept quiet? To change a plot of land's zoning use requires some sort of public notice and then a public forum (usually at a planning and zoning commission hearing) whereby those who have questions/objections could voice them?

Is the food catered? If they cook it onsite then they MUST have to comply with local codes in terms of the kitchen being inspected, licensing etc, etc.
I wonder how it goes unnoticed

 

[Breaker_Morant]

I'm stunned at how ugly this thread has gotten. To think that not long ago many of us met and, I thought, appreciated the time spend together but now are attacking one another.

What about the two that were dis-invited because the hostess was pissed at them? (and I won't go into the reason why as I'm sure enough already know)

 

[ecstaticsub]

HM, BB, Netz and anyone else I missed...I can understand why you would be offended however...it's a swing club!

People are there for sex, but they are not really meat markets of rude people coming on to others. (at least not the ones that require membership) They are like a party. People get to know each other, usually the same people week after week, and they share what they are interested in and what they aren't. I can easily name at least 5 friends of mine who would absolutely LOVE having a woman come up to them in a club and pose the idea of maybe a little bi-curious play while the men watched and then the guys joining in. The part of Gigi's plan that didn't seem realistic was that the other woman's male partner wouldn't be included in play.

I don't know about most clubs, because obviously I haven't been in most clubs..but from what I have seen is that seriously bi women who would get offended are not the kind who hang out in swing clubs.

 

[BiBunny]

What about the two that were dis-invited because the hostess was pissed at them? (and I won't go into the reason why as I'm sure enough already know)

And the three who WERE there who weren't even spoken or otherwise acknowledged to by the hostess? God knows, I'm 24 years old, but if I had acted that way toward my guests, my mother would STILL whip my ass.

I wasn't going to bring it up, but what the hell, right?

 

[Breaker_Morant]

And the three who WERE there who weren't even spoken or otherwise acknowledged to by the hostess? God knows, I'm 24 years old, but if I had acted that way toward my guests, my mother would STILL whip my ass.

I wasn't going to bring it up, but what the hell, right?

Oh I know that so well.

 

[FurryFury]

What about the two that were dis-invited because the hostess was pissed at them? (and I won't go into the reason why as I'm sure enough already know)

What business is it of yours? Who are you anyway that you seem to think you know so much about the people here and in ATL but I've rarely if ever seen you post before these attacks?

If one is invited, then dis-invited, yes it matters why. That is, in fact, key. Since I didn't meet these two and don't know what went on, it's difficult to speculate.

Again, why is this important to you.

I didn't think this was a witch hunt before when the whole, how a bi girl feels being approached by a straight girl with no interest thing was the focus. Now, I think it is.

The people I met in ATL I enjoyed meeting. I thought we all got along well. This sort of crap is appalling particularly when its not from any of the main parties involved.

Just what is the percentage in starting a witch hunt? I'm sure a city planner would know. It does seem to be work in their area of expertise.

 

[FurryFury]

And the three who WERE there who weren't even spoken or otherwise acknowledged to by the hostess? God knows, I'm 24 years old, but if I had acted that way toward my guests, my mother would STILL whip my ass.

I wasn't going to bring it up, but what the hell, right?

I didn't know this happened, because as you know I wasn't there the entire time. As far as I could tell, everyone got along fine, which was a relief to me.

However, I didn't know we had this little group here and that little group there both hoarding resentments and perhaps, PM-ing their friends until they attacked on a board. This instead of finding a way to get along and communicate in person.

This is so sad.

 

[FurryFury]

I don't know about anyone else but where I am it's a beautiful day, I'm breathing and sewing and doing stuff I love, I talked to both my children today and we all shared "I love you's".

Look around yourself. I'm sure it's beautiful where you are, too. This shit is not worth battling words over.

So, let it go.

Blessed are the peacemakers.

Good on you for trying!

 

[intothewoods]

I don't know about anyone else but where I am it's a beautiful day, I'm breathing and sewing and doing stuff I love, I talked to both my children today and we all shared "I love you's".

Look around yourself. I'm sure it's beautiful where you are, too. This shit is not worth battling words over.

So, let it go.

We are both quite blessed, and apparently of the same opinion here: this all just ain't worth it.

 

[Breaker_Morant]

If one is invited, then dis-invited, yes it matters why. That is, in fact, key. Since I didn't meet these two and don't know what went on, it's difficult to speculate.

Again, why is this important to you.

What you don't know Fury is that I got dragged into the "pre-game" politics/drama (and I didn't ask to be either) and I was invited (by Gigi) but declined due to previous committments and besides, I know all to well that a litogether can be the good way to ruin a friendship.

 

[FurryFury]

What you don't know Fury is that I got dragged into the "pre-game" politics/drama and I was invited (by Gigi) but declined due to previous committments and besides, I know all to well that a litogether can be the good way to ruin a friendship.

Interesting stuff. You are right. I did not know that. There appears to be a great deal more to the story that I also don't know.

Personally, I think that if a litogether can ruin a friendship, it must not have been very strong to begin with though. KWIM?

 

[Breaker_Morant]

Interesting stuff. You are right. I did not know that. There appears to be a great deal more to the story that I also don't know.

I honestly wish I was ignorant of it all too. After I got dragged in I found out alot of the backstory and so I have to admit my views on this whole saga are colored by what I was told.

Personally, I think that if a litogether can ruin a friendship, it must not have been very strong to begin with though. KWIM?

Very valid point.

 

[BiBunny]

I didn't know this happened, because as you know I wasn't there the entire time. As far as I could tell, everyone got along fine, which was a relief to me.

However, I didn't know we had this little group here and that little group there both hoarding resentments and perhaps, PM-ing their friends until they attacked on a board. This instead of finding a way to get along and communicate in person.

This is so sad.

I don't have to PM my friends, Fury. They were there and saw it with their own eyes.

The only dog I have in this fight is that I pointed out how the OP was offensive, and then Gigi went off the deep end. And somehow, my relationships then got called into question, which, incidentally, has nothing to do with the price of tea in China. If I wanted to "attack" someone because I felt "resentment," I would. I think we all know that if I feel some way about something, I say it, unlike many others here.

I'm just going off what I've seen and read myself, and that has nothing to do with anyone else here. *Shrug* Frankly, I don't give a red rat's ass if Carlos the Latin Wonder is real or not. I just wouldn't blindly accept what someone tells me, given what I know about previous behavior.

 

[Breaker_Morant]

I don't have to PM my friends, Fury. They were there and saw it with their own eyes.

The only dog I have in this fight is that I pointed out how the OP was offensive, and then Gigi went off the deep end. And somehow, my relationships then got called into question, which, incidentally, has nothing to do with the price of tea in China. If I wanted to "attack" someone because I felt "resentment," I would. I think we all know that if I feel some way about something, I say it, unlike many others here.

I'm just going off what I've seen and read myself, and that has nothing to do with anyone else here. *Shrug* Frankly, I don't give a red rat's ass if Carlos the Latin Wonder is real or not. I just wouldn't blindly accept what someone tells me, given what I know about previous behavior.

You just call 'em as you see 'em, don't you?