"Swineburne syndrome"

[twelveoone]

From one of his:
Here, where the world is quiet;
Here, where all trouble seems
Dead winds' and spent waves' riot
In doubtful dreams of dreams;
I watch the green field growing
For reaping folk and sowing,
For harvest-time and mowing,
A sleepy world of streams.

one substitution of rhyme

Here, where the world is riot;
Here, where all trouble seems
Dead winds' and spent waves' quiet
In doubtful dreams of dreams;
I watch the green field growing
For reaping folk and sowing,
For harvest-time and mowing,
A sleepy world of streams.

I like mine better already
surreal, start here:
I watch the green shield glowing

lowlife

A creepy world of schemes.

really did he think this shit out

Here, where the world is quiet;
Here, where all trouble seems
Dead winds' and spent waves' riot
In doubtful dreams of dreams;


riot? spent waves' riot? at the very least a bit of a stretch for me

No wonder, I'm so unloved, but it all is a bit too easy

watch the front end and the sonic pattern in the middle

Here, where the world is quiet;
Here, where all trouble seems
Dead winds' and spent waves' riot
In doubtful dreams of dreams;
I watch the green field growing
For reaping folk and sowing,
For harvest-time and mowing,
A sleepy world of streams.

bamm, lands on green, what does it do the last line?

faking your way though poetry 101 (But real nifty tricks)
why do I see a bunch of vote downs on my stuff coming up

and is Wolflarson still around?
laughs

 

[Angeline]

From one of his:
Here, where the world is quiet;
Here, where all trouble seems
Dead winds' and spent waves' riot
In doubtful dreams of dreams;
I watch the green field growing
For reaping folk and sowing,
For harvest-time and mowing,
A sleepy world of streams.

one substitution of rhyme

Here, where the world is riot;
Here, where all trouble seems
Dead winds' and spent waves' quiet
In doubtful dreams of dreams;
I watch the green field growing
For reaping folk and sowing,
For harvest-time and mowing,
A sleepy world of streams.

I like mine better already
surreal, start here:
I watch the green shield glowing

lowlife

A creepy world of schemes.

really did he think this shit out

Here, where the world is quiet;
Here, where all trouble seems
Dead winds' and spent waves' riot
In doubtful dreams of dreams;


riot? spent waves' riot? at the very least a bit of a stretch for me

No wonder, I'm so unloved, but it all is a bit too easy

watch the front end and the sonic pattern in the middle

Here, where the world is quiet;
Here, where all trouble seems
Dead winds' and spent waves' riot
In doubtful dreams of dreams;
I watch the green field growing
For reaping folk and sowing,
For harvest-time and mowing,
A sleepy world of streams.

bamm, lands on green, what does it do the last line?

faking your way though poetry 101 (But real nifty tricks)
why do I see a bunch of vote downs on my stuff coming up

and is Wolflarson still around?
laughs

A few ideas~

Are we sure that the punctuation is correct? You know it often changes on publishers' whim. I wonder if this reflects his original writing, but even if it does, it's clear he's playing with double meanings across the poem. For example,

Here, where all trouble seems
Dead winds' and spent/ waves' riot
In doubtful dreams of dreams;

if one puts a pause where I put the slash, waves riot in doubtful dreams, which is not at all hard to envision. Yes, there are those pesky apostrophes, but they seem strange to me, too, because neither winds nor waves that are gone can riot (not that people, like even Chomsky, would take issue with the logic). So maybe he is playing with meaning and making some poor punctuation choices. Or maybe they were punctuated differently or read differently in his time. Hard to know without recordings. Yeah his prose gets kind of purple here and there, but he is doing some interesting things with meter for his time.

It's important to look at a poem in the context that it was written. We both know that. Not that I'm arguing any big case for Swinburne here. I much prefer Browning and feel that the mantle Swinburne supposedly inherited from him him (Browning) and Tennyson was undeserved, but I wouldn't exactly call him a hack, either.

As for your change if the world has gone riot, how come all trouble seems dead? How come that gets to be surreal, but his choice is less ok?

Not trying to argue here, just sharing what I see.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

So wasn't I told long ago that too many gerunds were a bad thing?

 

[Angeline]

So wasn't I told long ago that too many gerunds were a bad thing?

When I first started editing my mentor was this proper little old Quaker lady who would not have looked out of place in a pince-nez. I used to pepper her with questions like yours and the wily commas, etc. And one morning she looked at me over her glasses and said "it depends on what you had for breakfast." It's not science...but yes I see your point, Ms. Gerund Slut.

 

[Tzara]

So wasn't I told long ago that too many gerunds were a bad thing?

"[G]rowing" and "reaping" aren't gerunds; they're participles. "owing" and "mowing" are gerunds.

Overuse of certain types of words can be a problem, of course, but this doesn't seem extreme to me. In fact, the rhyme scheme (mixing masculine and feminine rhyme) gives the poem a very nice sound, in my opinion. It's also what seems to give it an interesting rhythm.

Again, IMO.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

When I first started editing my mentor was this proper little old Quaker lady who would not have looked out of place in a pince-nez. I used to pepper her with questions like yours and the wily commas, etc. And one morning she looked at me over her glasses and said "it depends on what you had for breakfast." It's not science...but yes I see your point, Ms. Gerund Slut.

"[G]rowing" and "reaping" aren't gerunds; they're participles. "owing" and "mowing" are gerunds.

Overuse of certain types of words can be a problem, of course, but this doesn't seem extreme to me. In fact, the rhyme scheme (mixing masculine and feminine rhyme) gives the poem a very nice sound, in my opinion. It's also what seems to give it an interesting rhythm.

Again, IMO.

You can't learn if you don't ask!

 

[Tzara]

Here's a link to the complete poem, "The Garden of Proserpine" at the Poetry Foundation.

It's an interesting poem, 1201, thank you for referencing it. The last stanza

Then star nor sun shall waken,
.......Nor any change of light:
Nor sound of waters shaken,
.......Nor any sound or sight:
Nor wintry leaves nor vernal,
Nor days nor things diurnal;
Only the sleep eternal
.......In an eternal night.​

shows some nice use of inverted iambs in the penultimate line and, possibly, in the last line (I read the first foot as inverted when I read the stanza, but not when I read the line alone--again, one of your points, I think, about metrical verse). I think you've been talking about that lately. It not only mixes up the rhythm of the poem, which is in iambic trimeter, it gives it a kind of jazzy ending.

IMO, again.

 

[twelveoone]

A few ideas~

Are we sure that the punctuation is correct? You know it often changes on publishers' whim. I wonder if this reflects his original writing, but even if it does, it's clear he's playing with double meanings across the poem. For example,

Here, where all trouble seems
Dead winds' and spent/ waves' riot
In doubtful dreams of dreams;

if one puts a pause where I put the slash, waves riot in doubtful dreams, which is not at all hard to envision. Yes, there are those pesky apostrophes, but they seem strange to me, too, because neither winds nor waves that are gone can riot (not that people, like even Chomsky, would take issue with the logic). So maybe he is playing with meaning and making some poor punctuation choices. Or maybe they were punctuated differently or read differently in his time. Hard to know without recordings. Yeah his prose gets kind of purple here and there, but he is doing some interesting things with meter for his time.

It's important to look at a poem in the context that it was written. We both know that. Not that I'm arguing any big case for Swinburne here. I much prefer Browning and feel that the mantle Swinburne supposedly inherited from him him (Browning) and Tennyson was undeserved, but I wouldn't exactly call him a hack, either.

As for your change if the world has gone riot, how come all trouble seems dead? How come that gets to be surreal, but his choice is less ok?

Not trying to argue here, just sharing what I see.

I should have used better punctuation Surreal I was playing with a line, as with creepy. All your points are well taken, but "riot" looks more of a slot drop then an alignment to me. I suppose the meaning of "riot" in proximity to "doubtful" signals something. Perhaps beyond the " sleepy world of streams"...

My shift of the rhyme was only a meaning shift for four lines only. Swinburne is a good person to go for sonics, depth you're fooling yourself. Browning and Tennyson, much deeper. Poetry often is what you the reader puts into it, and I'm not going to put much into Swineburne, except look for sound tricks, which he could do par excellence. So if Swineburne suffers a rap, he shares that rap with Poe, and Poe probably was a bit more complex. It's a trade often, sound or meaning. Swineburne shot for sound.

 

[Angeline]

I should have used better punctuation Surreal I was playing with a line, as with creepy. All your points are well taken, but "riot" looks more of a slot drop then an alignment to me. I suppose the meaning of "riot" in proximity to "doubtful" signals something. Perhaps beyond the " sleepy world of streams"...

My shift of the rhyme was only a meaning shift for four lines only. Swinburne is a good person to go for sonics, depth you're fooling yourself. Browning and Tennyson, much deeper. Poetry often is what you the reader puts into it, and I'm not going to put much into Swineburne, except look for sound tricks, which he could do par excellence. So if Swineburne suffers a rap, he shares that rap with Poe, and Poe probably was a bit more complex. It's a trade often, sound or meaning. Swineburne shot for sound.

Yeah we agree about the depth. I would say I find Swinburne more interesting rhetorically than thematically. And I know we disagree about Yeats but for me with him it is not just musicality, but his ability to evoke emotion in me as a reader. Maybe it's the same as if I were looking at some Impressionist paintings. I doubt there are great layers of meaning but sometimes the pure beauty takes my breath away.

 

[twelveoone]

Here's a link to the complete poem, "The Garden of Proserpine" at the Poetry Foundation.

It's an interesting poem, 1201, thank you for referencing it. The last stanza

Then star nor sun shall waken,
.......Nor any change of light:
Nor sound of waters shaken,
.......Nor any sound or sight:
Nor wintry leaves nor vernal,
Nor days nor things diurnal;
Only the sleep eternal
.......In an eternal night.​

shows some nice use of inverted iambs in the penultimate line and, possibly, in the last line (I read the first foot as inverted when I read the stanza, but not when I read the line alone--again, one of your points, I think, about metrical verse). I think you've been talking about that lately. It not only mixes up the rhythm of the poem, which is in iambic trimeter, it gives it a kind of jazzy ending.

IMO, again.

Actually Ange's point about the time also has to be considered, he had people walking down the streets singing this stuff, why? It was entertainment. As poetry, how many "Nor" s does it take to get the point across. "Nor days nor things diurnal;" if that line would show up today what would the reaction be?
Sound, one of the best, he doesn't let up. Poetic condensation, a bit light. "The Charge of the Light Brigade" has more meaning. I really can't think of anyone famous from that time, that I'm less inclined to seek out meaning from.
But then I'm a Modernist at heart.

 

[Tzara]

As poetry, how many "Nor" s does it take to get the point across. "Nor days nor things diurnal;" if that line would show up today what would the reaction be?

I actually like that line, so you're appealing to the wrong jury there.

Sound, one of the best, he doesn't let up.

Yes, that's the appeal. I'd have to confess that I have no idea what the poem is about, because I've been wallowing in the sonics of it.

So, probably not a good poem, but a wonderful piece of writing. There is a difference.

But then I'm a Modernist at heart.

Why, yes. You are.

 

[KatieJones]

I dislike rhyme but I can still find a great deal of meaning in the poem as it is. I’d say his word choices are very deliberate and not just an easy way out. I don’t mind the word riot because while its main connotation would be a chaotic, moving mess, I think it works there because while I don’t see frenzy I do see movement in multiple directions. I like it because it doesn’t fit perfectly and makes me visualize the image and think about meaning.

To me he’s saying that the struggle of life isn’t in the storms or the obvious struggles but in the constancy of every day. In those days we watch our dreams disappear and sometimes they make us feel we are without momentum. It is also in that numbing quiet that we see life around us continue, as a series of choices that we can be conscious of or mindlessly just allow ourselves to be pulled along to the inevitable.

If I don't find meaning in a poem, that does not mean the poem is inferior. It just means it doesn't work for me.

 

[twelveoone]

Yeah we agree about the depth. I would say I find Swinburne more interesting rhetorically than thematically. And I know we disagree about Yeats but for me with him it is not just musicality, but his ability to evoke emotion in me as a reader. Maybe it's the same as if I were looking at some Impressionist paintings. I doubt there are great layers of meaning but sometimes the pure beauty takes my breath away.

That depends on what you mean by meaning, Yeats you have to be very careful with. I suppose you could just read Yeats aloud and not think about it for awhile but somewhere you are going to stop and say "what's going on here?" He has the capability to haunt, that I don't think Swinburne ever achieved. Could just be me.

Overlay of sonic patterns, Swinburne's the man. BTW any newbs reading this. Good case for repeated sounds, just be selective about it (don't overdo). And try to use it on things that do have some meaning, a bunch of nors ain't gonna cut it.

 

[twelveoone]

I dislike rhyme but I can still find a great deal of meaning in the poem as it is. I’d say his word choices are very deliberate and not just an easy way out. I don’t mind the word riot because while its main connotation would be a chaotic, moving mess, I think it works there because while I don’t see frenzy I do see movement in multiple directions. I like it because it doesn’t fit perfectly and makes me visualize the image and think about meaning.

To me he’s saying that the struggle of life isn’t in the storms or the obvious struggles but in the constancy of every day. In those days we watch our dreams disappear and sometimes they make us feel we are without momentum. It is also in that numbing quiet that we see life around us continue, as a series of choices that we can be conscious of or mindlessly just allow ourselves to be pulled along to the inevitable.

If I don't find meaning in a poem, that does not mean the poem is inferior. It just means it doesn't work for me.

That is interesting, the deliberate disruptor, maybe. Well we all react differently.

Anyway, to Poe for a minute. Harold Bloom has a series of books, of what critics have to say about poets. Poe's is interesting because it is divided almost in half as to whether he is a Poet.

If you like Swinburne and find meaning in it, that is fine, it functions for you. It doesn't function on a deeper level for me, because he looks like he coding for sound more and using a lot of wasted words to get it across. So some of his objectionable rhymes look like "drop in the slot", unlike Bryon and Yeats who when they used them, used them so they would jar, and were a bit more meaning full with alignment of word choice elsewhere. Bryon often was quite sarcastic when he used objectionable rhyme. Unobjectionable rhyme is often innocuous.

 

[twelveoone]

I actually like that line, so you're appealing to the wrong jury there.

Really? I'll have to slip it in somewhere.
"Nor days nor things diurnal;"
Next to urinal
Poetry is also an associative process, and while I'm not sure they had those things back in the days, so I have to forgive for that sin. It's the first thing that popped into my mind.

 

[KatieJones]

I misunderstood something you said. Nothing to see here. Move along.

 

[Angeline]

I'm pretty busy today but this is a placeholder for a discussion I want to have about whether there is real substance in the poetry of Yeats. I know there is and I can illustrate it, just not at the moment. In the meantime, if you want to look at how he explores themes over time, read (in this order) Leda and the Swan, The Wild Swans at Coole, Sailing to Byzantium and finally Among Schoolchildren. It's a fair amount of reading but I don't see how one can read those poems and not see him struggling with the theme of what lasts and what doesn't--and weaving it all together with classical references and his own ideas and experiences.

 

[twelveoone]

I misunderstood something you said. Nothing to see here. Move along.

no
Overlay of sonic patterns, Swinburne's the man. BTW any newbs reading this. Good case for repeated sounds, just be selective about it (don't overdo). And try to use it on things that do have some meaning, a bunch of nors ain't gonna cut it.
Four, (at least) front end, end rhyme, what I would call "internal sonic weaving" and Swinburne was coding to the metre. Where did I learn this shit? Langston Hughes, who did it with phrases and didn't code for metre. That also is why I mentioned Poe. Go back and look at the bolded part.

So where is the poetry, you caught it yourself, didn't yoou? The deliberate disruption, the offset, the change.

Poetry, often functions on the less is more theorem, or more crudely put; get in, do what you have to do and get the fuck out.

Now that I impressed (careful with this, it means something entirely different) you will begin to notice these patterns, you will notice how this makes poetry, and you will forget where you got it from.

 

[butters]

From one of his:

Here, where the world is quiet;
Here, where all trouble seems
Dead winds' and spent waves' riot
In doubtful dreams of dreams;
I watch the green field growing
For reaping folk and sowing,
For harvest-time and mowing,
A sleepy world of streams.

one substitution of rhyme

Here, where the world is riot;
Here, where all trouble seems
Dead winds' and spent waves' quiet
In doubtful dreams of dreams;
I watch the green field growing
For reaping folk and sowing,
For harvest-time and mowing,
A sleepy world of streams.

clearly i'm missing the way you are looking at it as it appeared to me to be saying that it's all quiet.

by using the lack of noise conjured by this:

dead winds' and spent waves' riot

he seems to be underlining his use of 'quiet' in that first line; he then goes on to add to the lack of disruptive noise and movement by using the 'sleepy' streams. the movement and sound of the green field growing and the reaping/sowing are (as i interpret) natural, rhythmic, seasonal and the way of life, ergo not about noise and activity beyond the bucolic scene being induced. a very picturesque, romanticised view, used metaphorically no doubt, and that being questioned by 'doubtful dreams of dreams'.

either way, i wish he'd wake up a bit.
i would add that, imo, the reps and apparently lazy sound-patterning are deliberate and all about inducing that hazy, pastoral effect.

i might be utterly and completely wrong. i get that.

twelvio, your subs make it a whole different poem.

 

[Angeline]

clearly i'm missing the way you are looking at it as it appeared to me to be saying that it's all quiet.

by using the lack of noise conjured by this: he seems to be underlining his use of 'quiet' in that first line; he then goes on to add to the lack of disruptive noise and movement by using the 'sleepy' streams. the movement and sound of the green field growing and the reaping/sowing are (as i interpret) natural, rhythmic, seasonal and the way of life, ergo not about noise and activity beyond the bucolic scene being induced. a very picturesque, romanticised view, used metaphorically no doubt, and that being questioned by 'doubtful dreams of dreams'.

either way, i wish he'd wake up a bit.
i would add that, imo, the reps and apparently lazy sound-patterning are deliberate and all about inducing that hazy, pastoral effect.

i might be utterly and completely wrong. i get that.

twelvio, your subs make it a whole different poem.

Say Ms. B, I have a question. I've been reading about WW2 and this book has a lot of authentic source material with dialogue from English native speakers. And there are usages of commas and apostrophes that don't seem clear to me if I go by American English rules. It just occurred to me that maybe if I understood your punctuation rules better, it might shed some light on this Swinburne thing. Do people from England (don't know, maybe true for the whole UK) typically use apostrophes only to show possession like we do in America or is there another meaning? Maybe it's just a dumb question but I am wondering.

I agree with your assessment but I believe twelvie was not trying to show anything about the substance of the poem with his change, just the way it sounds. My argument, in fact, was that the sonic change turns what I see as the intended meaning on its head. So yeah.

 

[butters]

Do people from England (don't know, maybe true for the whole UK) typically use apostrophes only to show possession like we do in America or is there another meaning?

really quickly (and hi, i'm back but my final prog in a series is on) - for possession AND for contractions

eg isn't

back tomorrow

 

[Angeline]

really quickly (and hi, i'm back but my final prog in a series is on) - for possession AND for contractions

eg isn't

back tomorrow

Lol well I do like to be thorough. Thank you.

Still the whole argument seems to rest on whether "riot" is a poor word choice because the author had to rhyme with "quiet." I guess I would argue that dead winds and spent waves could only riot in doubtful dreams...or dreams of them.

Musing done and back to work!

 

[bogusagain]

Sa Do people from England (don't know, maybe true for the whole UK) typically use apostrophes only to show possession like we do in America or is there another meaning? Maybe it's just a dumb question but I am wondering.

English English rules for the apostrophe use are here.

As you'll notice, the site is of The Apostrophe Protection Society. While they claim they aren't grammar fascists, there is an ongoing debate about apostrophe usage and some Oxbridge academics who should know better, have proposed abandoning the apostrophe.

The problem with English English, though I would say it isn't a problem, is that there is no official correct grammar, never has been, although there are numerous people and organisations who will claim what is right and wrong. The truth is we don't have an English equivalent of the french language police in the form of L'Académie française. And even if we did, you (not you personally, you Americans) as wel as Aussies and Kiwis wouldn't take any notice of it anyway.

 

[Angeline]

English English rules for the apostrophe use are here.

As you'll notice, the site is of The Apostrophe Protection Society. While they claim they aren't grammar fascists, there is an ongoing debate about apostrophe usage and some Oxbridge academics who should know better, have proposed abandoning the apostrophe.

The problem with English English, though I would say it isn't a problem, is that there is no official correct grammar, never has been, although there are numerous people and organisations who will claim what is right and wrong. The truth is we don't have an English equivalent of the french language police in the form of L'Académie française. And even if we did, you (not you personally, you Americans) as wel as Aussies and Kiwis wouldn't take any notice of it anyway.

Well it's no different in America, I can tell you that. When I take an editing job, the first thing I need to know is the style of the publisher. Is it New York Times or Associated Press, Chicago Manual of Style or the dreaded Government Printing Office, etc., plus whatever arbitrary seeming rules Publisher X adds on. And there is a lot of disagreement between them. To me that's because language changes all the time, how we say things and write them. And that's good imo. But sometimes knowing what the fashion was when a certain piece was written can give you better insight, right? Shakespeare can be all but unreadable if you don't know that many words meant different things when he used them or you don't recognize some archaic phrasing.

 

[twelveoone]

clearly i'm missing the way you are looking at it as it appeared to me to be saying that it's all quiet.

by using the lack of noise conjured by this: he seems to be underlining his use of 'quiet' in that first line; he then goes on to add to the lack of disruptive noise and movement by using the 'sleepy' streams. the movement and sound of the green field growing and the reaping/sowing are (as i interpret) natural, rhythmic, seasonal and the way of life, ergo not about noise and activity beyond the bucolic scene being induced. a very picturesque, romanticised view, used metaphorically no doubt, and that being questioned by 'doubtful dreams of dreams'.

either way, i wish he'd wake up a bit.
i would add that, imo, the reps and apparently lazy sound-patterning are deliberate and all about inducing that hazy, pastoral effect.

i might be utterly and completely wrong. i get that.

twelvio, your subs make it a whole different poem.

watch the front end and the sonic pattern in the middle

Here, where the world is quiet;
Here, where all trouble seems
Dead winds' and spent waves' riot
In doubtful dreams of dreams;
I watch the green field growing
For reaping folk and sowing,
For harvest-time and mowing,
A sleepy world of streams.

bamm, lands on green, what does it do to the last line?
the rhyme scheme of course does like wise
either way, i wish he'd wake up a bit.
ah. yeh


my subs...baiting wolfie

the "rap" on Swinburne the reference to entertainment
Swinburne was the Victorian rapper
may have been called "art for art's sake" back then


Yeats and Swinburne don't belong is the same thread, even on rhyme alone Yeats (he may outshine everybody) far outshines Yo Algernon. Did you notice the rhyme he wants you to notice (the meaningful) end on a full stop, I noticed at least one where it even graidiated.
Important (as to meaning) Full stop
Not so important....comma
just rhyme...enjambment