Suspension of Disbelief

[kinkbugs]

For me, as a reader and an author, I would love to write about things that aren't necessarily realistic. I love the idea of someone wearing a buttplug for hours and hours and hours so that they get stretched out, but I think a few of my readers found that off-putting.

I don't intend to stop mentioning it because I like the idea of it, even if it's not feasible, and because I think it shows just how much the character Dawn loves getting her butthole stimulated.

But it did make me start to wonder, where do you as a reader start suspending your disbelief?

If a woman orgasms three, four times during penetrative sex, is that too far out of the realm of possibility? 24/7 plugging? Modern day slavery? Huge cocks? Anal orgasms?

Is there a way to write far-out sex scenes that seem believable? Or is it not that important because it's all fiction here?

Would love your thoughts on how far you can take it without making it seem over-the-top.

 

[jaF0]

Suspending belief is not the same as being disgusted or grossed out. Science Fiction is based on suspending belief in what we know. I can watch Space 1999 and most other similar shows, but not Alien and such.

 

[Bramblethorn]

If a woman orgasms three, four times during penetrative sex, is that too far out of the realm of possibility?

I am reliably informed that this is eminently possible, with a partner who knows what they're doing.

 

[kinkbugs]

Suspending belief is not the same as being disgusted or grossed out. Science Fiction is based on suspending belief in what we know. I can watch Space 1999 and most other similar shows, but not Alien and such.

Is there something in particular about those shows that puts you off? Not necessarily in a disgust/grossed out way but just it seems so improbable that you just noped out of there.

Like for example, I think there are people as twisted as to create SAW like games out there. I believe the premise of the show is plausible, but I don't watch it because it creates too much of a visceral reaction in me.

But although I've watched shows about epidemics, I found it hard to suspend disbelief because of the bad science involved.

AND YET I can suspend my disbelief when I read erotic fiction about siblings who start making love.

What does a piece of fiction have to have for you to say "okay I'm just going to go with it."?

 

[SimonDoom]

Some random thoughts:

1. It is not essential that an erotic story must mirror the real world. There's no reason a woman in an erotic story cannot have an unusual number of orgasms. Some readers may not like that, but many will, and there's no reason to please everybody.

2. A key with suspension of disbelief is not to do too much. One bit of magic, you can get away with. Two, maybe not.

3. Explain the thing that's unrealistic through clues, foreshadowing, explanation, character traits, or plot. Sounds like you've done this with Dawn. Maybe Dawn is very naughty and up for a challenge, or has a high discomfort threshold. Introduce these character traits before the unrealistic thing happens so we are prepared for it.

4. Try to describe the unrealistic thing in a way that's realistic. For instance, make it clear that the plug in her butt is uncomfortable, and describe how, but Dawn likes it anyway because she has a masochistic side or a submissive side and wants to please her master, or something like that.

 

[kinkbugs]

I am reliably informed that this is eminently possible, with a partner who knows what they're doing.

Possible, but it's not exactly common, I would think. While I like the idea of it, it's not exactly an experience shared among my female friends. Which kind of makes me wonder if reading such things would make a woman go 'Oh, not very plausible,' and thus be put-off from a story.

 

[KeithD]

The goal with erotica isn't realism, it's sexual arousal. The anal retentive about realism aren't yet in tune with enjoying (and benefiting from) erotica.

 

[gordo12]

If a woman orgasms three, four times during penetrative sex, is that too far out of the realm of possibility?

Nope, my first wife was like that. Came easily and frequently. 2-3 times was nothing. Can't exactly claim to have been knowledgeable or that I knew what I was doing. Hell I thought every woman would be like that.

Who knew they weren't. Divorce had more than 1 revelation.

 

[Vix_Giovanni]

Possible, but it's not exactly common, I would think. While I like the idea of it, it's not exactly an experience shared among my female friends. Which kind of makes me wonder if reading such things would make a woman go 'Oh, not very plausible,' and thus be put-off from a story.

Disbelief is subjective, and relates directly to what one has and hasn’t experienced, as well as the degree to which others in your own trusted sphere impress on you that an event’s possible, plausible and likely to happen. I think your comment above answers your own question. BT pointed out her own knowledge of multiple orgasms via penetration as did gordo12; I could tell you of my own firsthand knowledge, too, but our input won’t have the weight of authorities in your own personal sphere. For the most part, your readers will operate the same way, and vet your story against their own reality and comfort zone of beliefs, to accept or disregard accordingly. If you’ve set the scene well and played to the category, the trend seems to be that you’re less likely to find readers that can’t read solely for enjoyment.

Nonetheless, there will always be some people who prefer to be critics. I received a short email about a month ago from someone who’s reading my series Counting Pennies/Investing Time/Spending Dollars that simply said, “Incredible story, but I can’t suspend my disbelief that an equity partner would risk his career with nepotism.” Not the first thing you’d think of as criticism in erotica. But that being said, nepotism is actually 1) a regular thing in law firms and 2) far from the most surreal aspect of the story.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Nonetheless, there will always be some people who prefer to be critics. I received a short email about a month ago from someone who’s reading my series Counting Pennies/Investing Time/Spending Dollars that simply said, “Incredible story, but I can’t suspend my disbelief that an equity partner would risk his career with nepotism.” Not the first thing you’d think of as criticism in erotica. But that being said, nepotism is actually 1) a regular thing in law firms and 2) far from the most surreal aspect of the story.

Reminds me of the scientist fellow who wandered past my Song of Seduction - Fire and Ice, who was somehow fine with a flying alien who Fleming the astronaut thought was an angel, but pinged me on the gravity physics of Titan. I'd forgotten that in one-seventh gravity, falling twenty feet is as dramatic as falling off a chair here on Earth.

I'll mess with his mind in the second part, where I'm using Samuel Taylor Coleridge as my scientific advisor - Kublai Khan and its caves of ice. I've gotta keep my girl alive somehow!

 

[Bramblethorn]

The goal with erotica isn't realism, it's sexual arousal. The anal retentive about realism aren't yet in tune with enjoying (and benefiting from) erotica.

Arousal may be the goal, but lack of realism (in the reader's eyes) can get in the way of arousal... though as Vix has noticed, and I think you've remarked in previous discussions, "realism" varies wildly from reader to reader.

Nonetheless, there will always be some people who prefer to be critics. I received a short email about a month ago from someone who’s reading my series Counting Pennies/Investing Time/Spending Dollars that simply said, “Incredible story, but I can’t suspend my disbelief that an equity partner would risk his career with nepotism.” Not the first thing you’d think of as criticism in erotica. But that being said, nepotism is actually 1) a regular thing in law firms and 2) far from the most surreal aspect of the story.

Yeah, it's amazing what will and won't trip people's "unrealism" detectors.

Another is non-monogamy. My partner and I have been together more than 20 years, non-monogamous almost since the beginning. It has its challenges - any long-term relationship does - but in general it's not a big deal.

There are plenty of people, on and off Literotica, to whom that is absolutely unbelievable. If I tell them about it their reaction will be "no, you must be lying, it's impossible that anybody could be happy that way." Their "impossible" is my lived experience.

With all that said... I think very often (not always) when readers complain about "lack of realism" what they actually mean is "this is a bullshit plot development that you haven't earned".

There are some unwritten conventions about how stories are told. If I write a story about a protagonist who's been kidnapped and held for ransom, my readers will expect that my protagonist eventually finds a way to outwit their kidnappers and escape through their own efforts.

I could break that rule. I could write that the police trace a phone call and show up, and the kidnappers see they're outnumbered and surrender without a fight. Or the family pays the ransom and the protag is released. Or the protag just walks out because somebody forgot to lock a door.

Any of those outcomes would be entirely possible in a RL kidnapping, but they're very unsatisfying to the reader, in ways that many readers would have difficulty articulating. So I think "it's unrealistic" often becomes a shorthand for that kind of dissatisfaction.

Another example would be an episode near the end of Game of Thrones where *spoiler alert* Arya kills the Night King and some viewers complained that it was "unrealistic". Many of those same viewers had no issue with the existence of honking big dragons flying around, or the Night King being an ancient undead monster, or a dozen other magical things, because it's not really about "realism" there; it's about their sense of how a narrative is supposed to work.

(I disagree with them - I felt the story had well and truly earned that particular outcome - but that's a whole other discussion. Point is, "realism" as shorthand for something else.)

This is something that I paid close attention to when I was writing "The Floggings Will Continue..." Part of the story is that two different people are in love with the same woman, and they've become hostile to one another over that, and the end resolution is that they learn to share. I felt that was an outcome that I had to earn, and I put in a lot of effort showing my readers how they go from "enemies" to "reluctant cooperation" to "working together", and why.

I very much doubt that every single person who read that story came away believing that happy non-monogamous relationships are possible in real life. But I like to think I sold people on that ending nevertheless, by putting in the work to tell a satisfying story about how they got to their Happily Ever After. Leastwise, I don't think I got any complaints about that aspect of the story.

 

[NotWise]

Yeah, it's amazing what will and won't trip people's "unrealism" detectors.

In Watch Me! I have a ballet dancer rise from the stage and disappear into waves of color. then reappear hours later and miles away. No-one seemed really bothered by that, but someone asked, "Was she really his sister?"

 

[Vix_Giovanni]

Arousal may be the goal, but lack of realism (in the reader's eyes) can get in the way of arousal... though as Vix has noticed, and I think you've remarked in previous discussions, "realism" varies wildly from reader to reader.



Yeah, it's amazing what will and won't trip people's "unrealism" detectors.

Another is non-monogamy. My partner and I have been together more than 20 years, non-monogamous almost since the beginning. It has its challenges - any long-term relationship does - but in general it's not a big deal.

There are plenty of people, on and off Literotica, to whom that is absolutely unbelievable. If I tell them about it their reaction will be "no, you must be lying, it's impossible that anybody could be happy that way." Their "impossible" is my lived experience.

With all that said... I think very often (not always) when readers complain about "lack of realism" what they actually mean is "this is a bullshit plot development that you haven't earned".

There are some unwritten conventions about how stories are told. If I write a story about a protagonist who's been kidnapped and held for ransom, my readers will expect that my protagonist eventually finds a way to outwit their kidnappers and escape through their own efforts.

I could break that rule. I could write that the police trace a phone call and show up, and the kidnappers see they're outnumbered and surrender without a fight. Or the family pays the ransom and the protag is released. Or the protag just walks out because somebody forgot to lock a door.

Any of those outcomes would be entirely possible in a RL kidnapping, but they're very unsatisfying to the reader, in ways that many readers would have difficulty articulating. So I think "it's unrealistic" often becomes a shorthand for that kind of dissatisfaction.

Another example would be an episode near the end of Game of Thrones where *spoiler alert* Arya kills the Night King and some viewers complained that it was "unrealistic". Many of those same viewers had no issue with the existence of honking big dragons flying around, or the Night King being an ancient undead monster, or a dozen other magical things, because it's not really about "realism" there; it's about their sense of how a narrative is supposed to work.

(I disagree with them - I felt the story had well and truly earned that particular outcome - but that's a whole other discussion. Point is, "realism" as shorthand for something else.)

This is something that I paid close attention to when I was writing "The Floggings Will Continue..." Part of the story is that two different people are in love with the same woman, and they've become hostile to one another over that, and the end resolution is that they learn to share. I felt that was an outcome that I had to earn, and I put in a lot of effort showing my readers how they go from "enemies" to "reluctant cooperation" to "working together", and why.

I very much doubt that every single person who read that story came away believing that happy non-monogamous relationships are possible in real life. But I like to think I sold people on that ending nevertheless, by putting in the work to tell a satisfying story about how they got to their Happily Ever After. Leastwise, I don't think I got any complaints about that aspect of the story.

Thank you for those insights, BT! That’s, imho, the crux of the “realism” complaint. I don’t think that all of the realism criticism should be considered with equal weight; I think some readers have their own prejudices and safety zones (as we all do) and misinterpret information that runs counter to their beliefs as threatening rather than expansive. To me, it hits like a personal attack when a reader (or another author) suggests that veritable pieces your own reality are unreal, impossible and could never happen—i.e., made up and thus dismissible and valueless. It’s a very demeaning practice.

I agree that most readers expect, rightly, that if a plot is going to veer from anticipated story tropes, then the author should invest care and attention to the structural details that prepare the reader for anomalies. Picking up on your ransom example, “Ransom of Red Chief” is a perfect, short example of such techniques; surrealism and disbelief aren’t even at issue because the reader’s won over. Similarly with “The Floggings Will Continue”, it never crossed my mind that the non-monogamous relationship was unrealistic and wouldn’t work (if I remember correctly, things ended with them making plans of when to see each other!)

There’s a lot of GoT references that float around the forum, so I guess I will have to finally watch the final seasons of the show so that I can understand the references

Reminds me of the scientist fellow who wandered past my Song of Seduction - Fire and Ice, who was somehow fine with a flying alien who Fleming the astronaut thought was an angel, but pinged me on the gravity physics of Titan. I'd forgotten that in one-seventh gravity, falling twenty feet is as dramatic as falling off a chair here on Earth.

I'll mess with his mind in the second part, where I'm using Samuel Taylor Coleridge as my scientific advisor - Kublai Khan and its caves of ice. I've gotta keep my girl alive somehow!

Sounds like a brillig and slithy idea. I’ve read Song of Seduction—Fire & Ice and all I can say is that’s a weird thing to have complained about, especially when you had such clear and believable explanations of the conditions on Titan.

In Watch Me! I have a ballet dancer rise from the stage and disappear into waves of color. then reappear hours later and miles away. No-one seemed really bothered by that, but someone asked, "Was she really his sister?"

That made me laugh out loud

 

[Polyacrylate]

In Watch Me! I have a ballet dancer rise from the stage and disappear into waves of color. then reappear hours later and miles away. No-one seemed really bothered by that, but someone asked, "Was she really his sister?"

Well? Was she?

 

[ElectricBlue]

To me, it hits like a personal attack when a reader (or another author) suggests that veritable pieces your own reality are unreal, impossible and could never happen—i.e., made up and thus dismissible and valueless. It’s a very demeaning practice.

This is a variation of the thread that ran a month or so ago where people said, "Oh, I don't like it when writers say, 'This is based on a true story'" as if that somehow makes it less worthy than fiction. Which is obviously bullshit. Truth is very often stranger than fiction, and anyway, how does anyone know?

I have one very personal autobiographical story cycle here where I was pleased that some folk, reading it through to the end, understood its importance to me and left thoughtful comments. I have many stories with truth scattered through them, and then I have completely fictional characters and circumstances, where commenters seem convinced those characters are me and a partner, "Thank you both for sharing."

The things in common across that spectrum of content are my typical slow pace, my repeated images and tropes, and an underlying layer of something a little bit fanciful and slightly unearthly. And every story has in it somewhere, a solid nugget of truth. And if you have that, however understated it might be, readers will somehow recognise it and be willing to suspend huge amounts of disbelief and go along for the ride.

In any event, it always comes down to the quality of the writing. Write badly and readers won't believe you; write well and they'll believe (almost) everything. The trick is to not reveal what's made up, and when you can't do that because of the obviously fanciful content, make stuff up convincingly.

 

[Hypoxia]

My reality fetish forces me to be as accurate as a story demands. Time and place, and resultant environmental and social dynamics, present little problem. Abnormal anatomy can be finessed with surgery or magic. Attitudes... everyone has some and nobody is 'normal'. Every unlikely perverted thought has already been thunk.

My goal is to entertain some subset of readers. I worry less about believability than consistency, whether 'real' or not. Fantasy and parody can dash into the never-never. I wouldn't expect readers to 'believe' a tale of a fellow whose erect cock varies with time between two and twenty inches long, depending on magic or technology or parasites or politics or any consistent excuse. Sure, it's fake, but I try to make it worth reading.

Erotica is fantasy. Don't screw it up with too much credibility.

 

[KeithD]

Arousal may be the goal, but lack of realism (in the reader's eyes) can get in the way of arousal... though as Vix has noticed, and I think you've remarked in previous discussions, "realism" varies wildly from reader to reader.

Well, sure if lack of realism gets way out of hand. But my belief is that the anal retentive will misjudge the purpose of erotica and might as well go read medical journals.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I agree that most readers expect, rightly, that if a plot is going to veer from anticipated story tropes, then the author should invest care and attention to the structural details that prepare the reader for anomalies. Picking up on your ransom example, “Ransom of Red Chief” is a perfect, short example of such techniques; surrealism and disbelief aren’t even at issue because the reader’s won over. Similarly with “The Floggings Will Continue”, it never crossed my mind that the non-monogamous relationship was unrealistic and wouldn’t work (if I remember correctly, things ended with them making plans of when to see each other!)

Yep, 90% of RL poly is about managing schedules

There’s a lot of GoT references that float around the forum, so I guess I will have to finally watch the final seasons of the show so that I can understand the references

I never did. I saw a few episodes and decided that it was not my cup of tea. But my partner was a keen fan who'd give me an info-dump after every episode, so between that and social media I kept abreast of the main controversies.

Well, sure if lack of realism gets way out of hand. But my belief is that the anal retentive will misjudge the purpose of erotica and might as well go read medical journals.

There's some good reading in medical journals!

 

[RetroFan]

Readers and in the case of movies and TV shows viewers are able to accept unrealistic themes if it is clear to them as part of the plot.

Time travel, body swaps and magic aren't real, but there are numerous successful works of fiction that use them. Likewise, people don't go around breaking into song and dance numbers in real life, but there are many successful musicals.

It is when you start to blur the lines or have characters that behave in unrealistic ways that you run into problems. For example, part of the success of the 1970s British sitcom 'Some Mothers Do Ave Em' was that the supporting characters who were unlucky enough to encounter Frank Spencer were angered, frustrated or driven to despair by his incompetence, and completely humourless about his antics. Had these characters found Frank Spencer funny, empathised with him or did not notice his mishaps, the show would not have worked.

Using musicals as another example, you can watch Grease, Hairspray, Singin' In The Rain or The Sound of Music and you accept the song and dance numbers because you know you are watching a musical. You would not be accepting of a film which does not appear to be a musical but suddenly and inexplicably throws in a song and dance number.

I can name two films that actually did this - 'Mac and Me' from 1988, and 'Teen Witch' from 1989. Both were aimed at teenage audiences, and did have fantasy plots - science fiction for Mac and Me and magic for Teen Witch. But while this was made clear to the viewers from the start, a non-dream sequence musical number in each film had viewers questioning WTF is happening. At no other stage of either movie was there any indication that this was a musical. Oh and the Mac and Me musical number took place in a MacDonald's restaurant of all places. I wish I was kidding, but I'm not.

So my advice is write fantasy themes, but be wary of character reactions and going too far and stretching the fantasy beyond credibility. For example, write a science fiction incest/fantasy story where an 18-year-old guy travels back in time to 1960 and has a love affair with his grandmother's hot sister, then aged 18 herself. But don't have her parents (obviously his great-grandparents) catch them in bed together, are completely accepting of it and tell them to have fun but to use a condom, before closing the door and leaving them to it. Would it be realistic for parents in 1960 to accept their 18-year-old daughter have a strange 18-year-old boy in her bed with her? I think not

 

[LesDesirable]

You can write anything you want.

Just do not add in a Mary Sue, do not add in a Euron Greyjoy. No Q continuum. If you must have one of them, please make sure the story requires it, not just has it.

If the story is fun, the most ridiculous events can take place without anyone blinking. (douglas adams)

 

[SimonDoom]

Using musicals as another example, you can watch Grease, Hairspray, Singin' In The Rain or The Sound of Music and you accept the song and dance numbers because you know you are watching a musical. You would not be accepting of a film which does not appear to be a musical but suddenly and inexplicably throws in a song and dance number.

t

Although Danny Boyle did this, very successfully I think, at the end of Slumdog Millionaire. It was unexpected but it worked as a kind of homage to Bollywood since the movie was set in India.

What I'm taking from this thread is that dealing with the suspension of disbelief issue is important in a story, but there's almost nothing you can say about it that qualifies as a universal rule. There are guidelines you can try to follow and techniques you can apply, but they vary greatly depending upon the needs of the story.

 

[NotWise]

Well? Was she?

Of course she was!. They were perfect sibling figments of my imagination, and could have existed no other way.

I think the reader's problem was that the siblings hadn't seen each other for a couple years, and he thought a real sister should have thrown herself at her brother and gushed nonsense until he tossed her into bed, as often happens in sibcest stories. That didn't happen. Suspension of disbelief didn't work for him because the characters didn't fit the common trope.

Rereading the comment now, it's likely the reader didn't get past the opening scene before he commented. At the time, it just made me groan.

 

[Brucimus_Maximus]

I think the suspension of disbelief is entirely dependent on the reader.

For example:

I am a very forgiving, very un-picky reader. I suspend disbelief very easily, even for things that might touch on my own expertise or experiences (though those are easily the parts I could be considered most critical of). I forgive small mistakes; I just feel very clever and knowledgeable for finding them. I am willing to trust other peoples' experiences and expertise for things outside of my personal realm of experience.

Is it possible to have a poly relationship with 20 people? I don't know. Maybe. I could see how that might work. Sure, I'm in, let's go.

My ex-wife, on the other hand, was on the exact opposite end of the spectrum. For example, she's a horse nut; if you mentioned someone in Pre-Revolution America riding to his lover's house on an Andalusian, she'd put the book down right there. "It's wrong, Andalusians weren't brought to America until the mid-1800's. The Spanish colonizers didn't bring big warmbloods, they brought Iberians." That's all it took. She was done.

Not only were stories subject to rejection in her areas of expertise, she was one of those who believed that her personal experiences were universal experiences. For example, she wouldn't read a story where a woman orgasmed from anal stimulation, because she never orgasmed from anal stimulation and assumed it was impossible and the writer didn't know what s/he was talking about.

And to go even further, she was always skeptical about experiences outside of her own in other areas. Can a 20-person poly relationship work? "I can't see how. It doesn't make sense. It's just obviously unbelievable."

Of course, she went so far as to even have reservations about things like high fantasy; while I give an author a lot of time to explain something I don't understand, if she didn't have the entire magic system explained, to her satisfaction, in detail, immediately upon the first spell in the book being cast, she was done.

Yes, my ex-wife was nuts. But so are a lot of readers (I'd assume). You're not going to be able to please everyone. Some people are only satisfied by a very narrow range of stories that meet a checklist of increasingly ridiculous requirements.

So the answer is, there is no answer. I'll probably love a story with the same elements that someone like my ex-wife would stop reading at the second paragraph for some dumb reason. Get right what you can get right, be internally consistent with the rules of your world (or set up inconsistencies ahead of time), and write to the level of detail you enjoy.

 

[Bramblethorn]

You can write anything you want.

Just do not add in a Mary Sue, do not add in a Euron Greyjoy. No Q continuum.

Fiction is full of successful Mary Sues. Harry Potter, for instance.

 

[SimonDoom]

I think the suspension of disbelief is entirely dependent on the reader.

.

You raise a valuable point that provokes an interesting question: For whom do you write? An easy reader or a picky one? I think it depends on the story, in part, but from what you've written your ex wife would be impossible to please on certain types of some subject matter. There's no point in trying to write for such a reader.

My answer to that question is, I suppose, I write for myself as a reader. I write to assuage the reader of the concerns that I would have as a reader. I probably gloss over some things that wouldn't bother me as a reader.

If I were a somewhat more careful writer -- and I probably should be -- I would write for what I would call the "Reasonable Me Plus" reader. Someone who's a bit pickier than I am, but reasonably so, whatever that means.

I'm a pretty easy reader when it comes to accepting far-fetched premises and initial story concepts. I'm much pickier when it comes to being consistent with whatever world has been created.

For example, if I recall correctly Bramblethorn (I think it was Bramblethorn) could not buy into the type of civilization that existed in Game of Thrones given that world's bizarre weather history and enormous timeline. It was a well-thought-out objection, but it's the sort of thing that doesn't bother me at all. But something that DID bother me a lot was the ability of the characters to transport themselves almost instantaneously around a huge continent without adequate explanation, or Euron Greyjoy's magical shipbuilding abilities. I can accept a wacky premise, or an oddball world, but once I have I need the author to work with me to keep me in the author's world by not straining my powers of suspension too much within the world that's been created. That's how the suspension of disbelief works for me, and that's what I try to write to address when I deal with it in my stories.