Survivor Poetry Point Change

[Chicklet]

Cut from 2003 Survivor Discussion Thread

The Poetry Cap - Right now, after eight poems, Lit by way of this contest does not encourage me to write more poems.

The contest is fun, yes, but it was created to encourage writers who like such contests to write more.

When I saw this limitation to poetry last year, I said to myself, "Yeah, Lit is all about stories and poems are not stories (Well, actually most of mine are), and since it takes a shorter amount of time to write them (at least, for me it does, but this is not the case for everyone), then counting points for all poems would put the story-only writers at a disadvantage.

This year, I do not agree with this logic.

First of all, some of the stories submitted take less time than some of the poetry to write. You know what I'm talking about, especially those of you who wrote their first poems last year as a result of this contest.

I mean, we don't want this contest to be only about counting up points, we want the stories to get better and by that, for us to improve as writers.

So, as a result, my first suggestion is to change the scoring so that every poem written during the year of the contest counts!

Now, you might be saying to yourself, "That's not fair! Poems are short. Poems are easy. Anyone can write a friggin' poem in about two seconds!"

Fine, fine, I understand this line of thinking. It's just as true of many stories, however, but that aside, let's encourage the poets who spend a lot of time writing poetry to get compensated for the poetry they write.

Last year, I wrote about one hundred poems. I have a suggestion on how to score these for the contest that I think is fair; especially to those writers here who only write poetry. Remember, their max possible score for our contest is 24 right now (Non-Erotic, Erotic, and Illustrated) with the current caps. (Actually I'm counting Audio Poetry as another category this year, so the total would be 32 pts - Chicklet)

Suggested New Scoring Method for Poetry Submissions: The first poem in a category is worth 1 point. Each successive poem in the same category is worth one-third point. In this manner, someone writer a poem a day would end the year with 122 points. A fine score, but not necessarily a winner. What did you end up with last year, Chicklet? 171 or so? And afterall with such an effort, a poem a day is a lot of work.

* * *

Thanks.

- Judo

So what do you say? This poll is open to everyone because at any point in the next 11 months anyone can enter. Agree, disagree, please tell us why.

Chicklet

 

[JUDO]

More Poetry Cap Thoughts

Killermuffin, naturally, has pointed out one or two things that need to be taken in consideration on this topic in the Poetry Forum. A link is here.

At risk of being banned from ever washing her pickup, here is her entry quoted:

The poetry cap is there because poetry is simply too easy to throw out there. There's no caveat about writing well, just that it exist.

I could write 500 haiku in a weekend and whip the socks off of people who are legitimately trying to win the contest in the manner in which it was intended. That intention was to fill all of the categories, not fluff out the poetry lists with junk.

Poetry, while the most difficult thing to write well, is the easiest thing to write badly and you know it. You also know that there are people out there who are only interested in winning by any means necessary. And Lit has no editorial standards for poetry. Hell, I could take one of the longer stories in my hard drive, chop it into pieces, and have 1000 poems. I win.

The reason there's no cap on stories is because at a minimum of 750 words a pop, you just don't churn them out. Good, bad or indifferent. Not to mention there is some editorial standards applied to stories.

* * *

And in the same thread, I have attempted to bring up some other thoughts that might assist us in our decision, quoted here:

Originally posted by Killermuffin -
...there are people out there who are only interested in winning by any means necessary. And Lit has no editorial standards for poetry.

*sigh* Semi-good point. Afterall, since length is the only imposed editorial standard on stories, perhaps that might be the same measure imposed on poems, but considering the potential for unethical behaviour, maybe more could be done.

I say it's up to us, the Poetry Community, to come up with a suggested list of "Editorial Standards" for poetry in such a contest.

Besides the above length considerations, here's a stab:

1) Poems must be presented an accepted poetic form (if free verse a form? and if so, how could it be judged worthy on a daily basis?)

2) Should the works presented for the contests not include all forms of poetry? Perhaps form and outside of form (free verse, for example) other considers might weigh heavier, like:

- subject
- theme
- use of rhyme, metaphor, etc.

A difficult task, obviously, or someone would have done it by now. Perhaps the community together can try to draft acceptable editorial standards for the contest.

Can we?


- Judo

PS - Of course, we could just cop out and leave it up to the Moderators to flush away any and all unethical submissions. Do they do that now with drivel labled as a story that happens to be over 750 words submitted to the contest?

 

[deliciously_naughty]

I think that making the first poem count as 1 point and the rest as 1/3 a point makes sense...only those who actually enjoy writing poetry would make the effort with so little reward to be had. IMHO

 

[Svenskaflicka]

I was very torn here for a while. On one hand, I agreed with the fact that anyone can whip out bad quality poems.

I wasn't all too proud over my poetry last year, but I got so caught up witht he stories that I did't bother making any serious effort with poetry.

Now, I can write a Haiku (3-lined poem with 5 syllables in the first line, 7 in the second, and 5 in the third, IN CASE someone don't know the term ) in a matter of minutes. If I do that, I can submit 30 "poems" per day - but I'll have to write 3 poems to get 1 point. I got to put in a LITTLE effort.

On the other hand, I also think that it's a pity to limit poetry, as it's a nice thing, a thing of more thought and literary effort than a mere jerk-off story.

Ultimately, I think that whatever we choose to do, there will be people chasing points, and people trying to write great erotic literature/poetry. There's no escaping that.

I say yes, set the poetry free, but give it less points, so we will avoid people having it TOO easy to get points. And let's hope everyone will pull themselves together and do their best to write something actually worth reading.

I vow to do better this year. *crossing fingers over heart and spitting*

 

[BlackSnake]

POEMS

How about including only those poems that are at least 1000 words? Give 3points for the first one and 1 point for everyone after that.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Something to consider:

When you make things too difficult, it's going to put people off. The contest is pretty hard to understand as it is, for some reason. Maybe I just way garbled it up when I put up the rules.

Perhaps we should dump all the poetry in the first place?

Or we can do like the first contest, the only story/poem that counts is the first one posted or the immunity.

 

[indigo sky]

Re: POEMS

How about including only those poems that are at least 1000 words? Give 3points for the first one and 1 point for everyone after that.

While I understand the intention here, stories have a 750 word minimum. So, requiring 1000 words for poetry, a typically much more metaphorical and condensed style of writing, is a bit over the top, in my opinion.

I completely understand the concern with just a jumble of words counting as much as a well written story, however, the very nature of poetry, good or bad, makes putting a minimum word length on it, impossible.

I think we should contain this category within an agreed upon point limit structure. Keeping the length minimums for stories and poetry, to the ones already set by Lit.

 

[BlackSnake]

Re: Re: POEMS

While I understand the intention here, stories have a 750 word minimum. So, requiring 1000 words for poetry, a typically much more metaphorical and condensed style of writing, is a bit over the top, in my opinion.

I completely understand the concern with just a jumble of words counting as much as a well written story, however, the very nature of poetry, good or bad, makes putting a minimum word length on it, impossible.

I think we should contain this category within an agreed upon point limit structure. Keeping the length minimums for stories and poetry, to the ones already set by Lit.

I can work with that. *I should have written minimum word length instead of 1000 words, and I wouldn't have gotten beaned.*

 

[indigo sky]

Re: Re: Re: POEMS

I can work with that. *I should have written minimum word length instead of 1000 words, and I wouldn't have gotten beaned.*

Didn't mean to any harm sweets...just nearly passed out at the idea having to make all my poems 1000 words

 

[BlackSnake]

Re: Re: Re: Re: POEMS

Didn't mean to any harm sweets...just nearly passed out at the idea having to make all my poems 1000 words

No, I speak to soon sometimes. I was thinking that the situation gave poets an unfair advantage if they counted every poem.

 

[indigo sky]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: POEMS

No, I speak to soon sometimes. I was thinking that the situation gave poets an unfair advantage if they counted every poem.

No worries...i completely understand

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: POEMS

No, I speak to soon sometimes.

No problem, sweety, no-one is demanding that you must be both sexy AND clever!

 

[BlackSnake]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: POEMS

No problem, sweety, no-one is demanding that you must be both sexy AND clever!

You see, comments like that will get you everywhere with me

 

[JUDO]

A Possible Poetry Review System

A few posts here have suggested that a "minimum word limit" might be a solution to encouraging the poetry category to be less subject to abuse by those trying to get around the point scoring system.

Others have rightly pointed out that "the very nature of poetry" makes this suggestion untenable.

But because we are dealing with a contest and points, something of which most writers I know would eschew anyway; I suggest we are already outside the bounds of normality.

* * *

How do we go forward?

Suggestions:

1) Since Literotica has the 750 word limit for stories (What is that? Like two pages in Word? lol.), then perhaps we could find a similar word length that would be accpetable for our contest.

Pulling a number out of my hat for a poem, I would say limit all poems submitted for the contest to 90 words (Yes, this means no Haiku, but sacrifice is at the heart of competition).

2) In addition, I would require that the poems have visible structure - stanzas. And that each stanza create an image or feeling. And that the overall structure of the stanzas have an effect of communicating a picture or idea or both.

3) Who becomes the judge of such content? We all do. If any of us participating question the validity of a poet's entry, it can be reviewed. Who will lead the review? The moderator. In this year, that would mean Chicklet. The moderator can call on anyone they so choose who is a member at Literotica to help in her review of the work.

The review will allow the work to stand or not, and the decision will not be subject to further review.

* * *

I could live with a system like that.

- Judo

 

[Chicklet]

JUDO's system

I think that there is a difference between counting each poem and making sure each is quality enough to be counted.

the system we're voting to change it to, if it passes, is much more complicated than the one before. that's enough all ready, imho. I want to keep it as simple as possible, but also fair.

I don't like the idea, Judo, but if anyone else does, please speak up.

Chicklet

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: POEMS

You see, comments like that will get you everywhere with me

Deep down inside, all men are masochists.

Now get down on your hands and kness and lick me!

 

[indigo sky]

new point suggestion

I have to agree with Chicklet on her thoughts for the review system. Again, I completely understand the concerns that people will run wild and publish 5000 poems, all simply listing the names of colors in various language (not that we want to complicate this with non-english and all )

But limiting poetry seems to contradict the art itself.

How about a combination of both suggested point systems?
What do you think of this?

Maintain the current point awarding system up to the cap, then those poems written beyond the capped number, are regraded to a different point level.

I would suggest 1/6 of a point. The logic there being, if a story must be 750 words then 1/6 of 750 is 125 words, a bit more than Judo's 90 word suggestion, but think 1/9 of a point was a bit a extreme.

My reasoning for this is two fold. It keeps a level playing fleld, while not encouraging those who just want to rack up points to go nuts. I also like this idea because it doesn't discourage anyone from writing poetry based on points either.
In other words, if I never wrote poetry, and then wrote 1 to get my 1 point and the category fulfilled. It wouldn't really encourage me to write more, even if I stumbled across the fact that I really like this poetry stuff. This way poets, both established and budding are rewarded beyond the first poem.

 

[Guest]

So, do we have rules for poetry yet?

 

[JUDO]

No, I would say the "current scoring" is in effect until it either changes or remains the same on February 23rd (the 30th day after this thread was posted by Chicklet).

Okay?


- Judo

 

[Chicklet]

If it changes, if anyone has questions, I'll help get everything sorted out = )

 

[Guest]

That's good to know.

 

[PoliteSuccubus]

I'm sorry but...

I do not like the idea of a 90 word poem which must be made of stanzas. I can't create like that. Often times when I write a poem I write a longer garbled version and then pare it down to it's essentals; and it's all free form. Trying to get me to write stanzas is as un-natueral to me as trying to wear two jock straps when I can't find my bra.

Eros I & II

Cock in hand
Tounge in mouth
Your hand in my hair
Touch me
Mind to mind
Heart to heart
Mouth to mouth
Give me the rough sweaty pain
But don't crush my fragile heart
Bite twist pinch suck mine
and I'll
Bite twist pinch suck yours
Wrap my legs around your neck
And give you everything to fill
Fill with hunger, fill with need
Fill with tounge, cock and fist
And the quesiton I don't want to ask:
While I'm loving you
Are you fucking me?
But I don't care
Just make it last


And:

Kissing is more important
Than Fucking
Anyone can fuck
Any dog
beast
rapist
Slugs even fuck
But a kiss.........
A kiss is deeper and more real
Than any cock
A thousand hours of
Thrusting
Can't beat the merest gentle
Brush of a true kiss.
Give me your lips, you tounge
Your spit
Give me the maker of words
Of smiles
Of frowns
Give me that place from
Which your voice comes out
Speak to me in
The unspoken ways
Give me your kiss

 

[Chicklet]

Re: I'm sorry but...

I do not like the idea of a 90 word poem which must be made of stanzas.

well...that's *not* what we're debating.

 

[PoliteSuccubus]

Re: JUDO's system

I think that there is a difference between counting each poem and making sure each is quality enough to be counted.

the system we're voting to change it to, if it passes, is much more complicated than the one before. that's enough all ready, imho. I want to keep it as simple as possible, but also fair.

I don't like the idea, Judo, but if anyone else does, please speak up.

Chicklet

So, I was responding to your invite to discuss......

 

[Chicklet]

<hugs for polite>

I was afraid that the initial idea of the poll had been misunderstood, and I reacted to it a bit grumpily - I apologize. I don't like the idea of judging or limiting poetry at all.

Chicklet