Supreme Court Says Your Kids Are Guilty before A Crime Is Committed!

Lost Cause

It's a wrap!
Joined
Oct 7, 2001
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More intrusion into our "Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness.....

WASHINGTON, June 27 — The Supreme Court today upheld the widespread use of random drug testing of public school students in a significant expansion of an earlier ruling that endorsed drug testing for student athletes.

The 5-to-4 decision upheld a program in a rural Oklahoma district that required students engaged in "competitive" extracurricular activities, a category that includes the future homemakers' club, the cheerleading squad and the choir, to submit to random drug testing.

In emphasizing the "custodial responsibilities" of a public school system toward its students, rather than the details of how the program was organized, the majority opinion by Justice Clarence Thomas appeared to encompass random drug testing of an entire student population.

But one member of the majority, Justice Stephen G. Breyer, who wrote a concurring opinion while also signing Justice Thomas's, said it was significant that the program in the Tecumseh, Okla., school district "preserves an option for a conscientious objector" by limiting the scope to students in extracurricular activities. A student "can refuse testing while paying a price (nonparticipation) that is serious, but less severe than expulsion," Justice Breyer said.

Students who are found to be using drugs at Tecumseh High School are barred from their activities and referred for counseling, but are not otherwise disciplined or reported to the police. The policy was challenged by Lindsay Earls, an honor student active in several activities who is now attending Dartmouth College.

Ms. Earls lost her case in federal district court in Oklahoma City but won last year in the United States Court of Appeals for the 10th Circuit, in Denver. That court examined the Supreme Court's 1995 ruling in Vernonia School District v. Acton and said that the athletes-only precedent did not validate the broader Tecumseh policy. The Tecumseh program violated the Fourth Amendment's prohibition against unreasonable searches, the appeals court ruled.

In his opinion overturning that decision today, Justice Thomas said the Tecumseh program was "entirely reasonable" in light of the "nationwide epidemic of drug use" among school-age children. While the Tecumseh district did not now appear to have a serious problem, he said, "it would make little sense to require a school district to wait for a substantial portion of its students to begin using drugs before it was allowed to institute a drug testing program designed to deter drug use."

The decision, Board of Education v. Earls, No. 01-332, was joined by Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist and Justices Antonin Scalia and Anthony M. Kennedy as well as Justice Breyer. The dissenters were Justices Sandra Day O'Connor, John Paul Stevens, and David H. Souter, all of whom were in the minority in the court's athletes-only ruling in 1995, and Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who had concurred in the earlier decision. In a dissenting opinion today, which the other three dissenters joined, Justice Ginsburg said the two cases were significantly different.

In the first, she said, the court "concluded that a public school district facing a disruptive and explosive drug abuse problem sparked by members of its athletic teams had `special needs' that justified suspicionless testing of district athletes as a condition of their athletic participation." But she said the 1995 opinion "cannot be read to endorse invasive and suspicionless drug testing of all students."

Had the court in the Vernonia case "agreed that public school attendance, in and of itself, permitted the state to test each student's blood or urine for drugs," she continued, "the opinion in Vernonia could have saved many words."

Justice Thomas said in the majority opinion that the differences in the two cases were "not essential." The earlier decision did not depend on the program's details but on "the school's custodial responsibility and authority," he said.

Justice Thomas added that it would not necessarily be less intrusive to require that drug testing be based on suspicions of particular students. That approach "might unfairly target members of unpopular groups" and place added burdens, including fear of lawsuits, on teachers and administrators, he said.

:D
 
Lost Cause said:
More intrusion into our "Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness.....

But one member of the majority, Justice Stephen G. Breyer, who wrote a concurring opinion while also signing Justice Thomas's, said it was significant that the program in the Tecumseh, Okla., school district "preserves an option for a conscientious objector" by limiting the scope to students in extracurricular activities. A student "can refuse testing while paying a price (nonparticipation) that is serious, but less severe than expulsion," Justice Breyer said.


They've just got to be kidding. There is no way that a kid should have to withdraw from extra-curricular activities to avoid drug testing. It is a severe invasion of privacy and our public schools are the last place where we should encourage non-involvement. Yeah, what a great idea - let's have all the kids we think are on drugs (and even some of the other ones) have to quit doing all the non-druggie things that they like so that they have more time on their hands to do drugs. FABULOUS idea


Had the court in the Vernonia case "agreed that public school attendance, in and of itself, permitted the state to test each student's blood or urine for drugs," she continued, "the opinion in Vernonia could have saved many words."

Oh, sure, just because we're poor or we don't want to send our kids to private schools, that means that you can poke, prod, or pee-test our kids. I love that we live in a country where you live by the motto: "pass your piss-test, get an education including extracurricular activities". I can see it now - "I'm sorry folks, the choir can't sing at graduation, there isn't time for the piss-test beforehand..."

Good lord, what is this world coming to?!



Justice Thomas said in the majority opinion that the differences in the two cases were "not essential." The earlier decision did not depend on the program's details but on "the school's custodial responsibility and authority," he said.
:D

As a last note: the school shouldn't have custodial responsibility and authority, the parents should. Granted, some parents don't take on that responsibility when they ought to, but that doesn't mean that you wrest it from those parents who do take responsibility for their children.

I'm just furious with the country right now, and I don't think I can be rational much longer. Time to let other people rant...

:rose:
 
I think that we err on the idea that children have rights. I believe they are the property of parents. I believe we have do do whatever is neccessary to take drugs and violence out of school. Even if it mean violating the rights of the little snot-noses. Let them learn what modern life is really like. Like being pulled over and searched for not wearing a seatbelt...
 
I'll add my 2 cents on this

What on Earth is wrong with these people?!! Don't they live in the real world?

If a High School kid is participating in extra curricular activities, that's a good thing.

Scaring them away from trying to participate because of drug testing is a stupid thing

If a kid is that interested in school, that they even want to hang around there longer to be in the chess club or robotics club or play football for that matter, why would you punish them like that?

Maybe there is a time and place for drug tests, like say if the kid is knocking off 7-11's during study period, is put on probation, and drug testing is a consequence of their actions, but random drug testing of perfectly good kids who just want to join an after school activity is complete bullshit.
 
They should also test the little fawkers for creatine and steroids because some parents have no common sense when it comes to baby's success...
 
SINthysist said:
That's why my kid won't go to public schools...

Mine won't either, if I ever have one. But the problem is, not everyone has that option. Not everyone can afford to buy the rights/priveledges that come with a private school education. That's the entire point of public education -it's for everyone, not just a select few, and not just the bottom slice of the economic ladder either. Public education should be (but isn't, at least in my area) an education that is comprehensive and just that - an education. Not a drug-testing arena, not a place for religion, not a place for anything but the education of our most valuable resource, our children.

:rose:
 
Ugh

just Ugh

Drug testing is big business in this country, and that's what it's all about.

American freedoms? Respect of privacy? No, it's money in the pocket of the loudest lobbyists that makes the rules in this country.

If my kid smoked a joint at a party on Saturday night, but can get his ass to school on Monday and join a school activity on top of that, tell me what the problem is?

There is no problem until there's a problem, stay the hell out of my parental decisions and my kids privacy.

Whew...this pisses me off just a bit huh

I'm outta here before I'm late to my highly dangerous job in a high risk environment, at a desk pushing paper, that I had to pass a drug test to be hired for :p
 
My problem is whith you as a parent saying, "What's wrong if my kid smokes pot..."

IT'S ILLEGAL!

Turn off the grow lights and set a better example...





And now that we have vouchers...

... and remember Lincoln and Carver were self-educated. Your future kid can walk into any public library and get a much better education than is currently being offered under the current social experimentation crucible that we call public education...
 
SINthysist,

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone....

Are you?

Eh forget it.

I'm not going to sit there and party with my kids, or want to see everything they are doing, but no parent knows what their kids do at all times, unless they keep them in a cage in the basement.

If he acts like a responsible citizen, then he gets to enjoy the freedoms and privacies that are a reward of that behavior.

Later
 
In an absolute permissive school environment, you're right. You can't keep tabs on your kid. Ever occur to you that some people in America want it that way for a reason...
 
And furthermore, they want you to use that line of reasoning. It is wrong to make value judgements unless you are perfect.

Bullshit!

We are free to make mistakes. We all do.

Just seems we don't want to have to own up to the consequences too...
 
One the schools do not have custodial rights over the parents of the children.

With that said. From what I read the Supreme Court did not rule on the constitutional aspects of the case. They ruled on what they thought was best for the kids. The key word there being thought.

Just like in the work place for adults this is a violation of privacy of the kids. It is also taking away from the parents the right of choice for their children.

The unfortunate thing about the entire mess is the Judges are not elected. They can only be removed by impeachment, retirement, or death. So they can sit up there and make these Bullshit rulings take away the rights of parents and kids and not worry about being voted off the bench.

I think that we err on the idea that children have rights.

Yes children have rights. The ruling on that came in either 1995 or 96. I will have to check on that.

The main point here is the civil rights of the kids are being violated with the blessings of the Supreme Court. To hell with the constitution we need to do something that shows that we are in charge. At least that what it looks like from here.
 
I didn't say they hadn't been confirmed upon the little darlings. I said it was an error...
 
In fact, they should have the right to have sex with anybody at any time of any age or gender.

I mean, if they're to have rights and be considered just little free-and-happy-go-lucky adults...
 
I started a thread on this topic a couple of weeks ago.

AFter that thread and reading this thread, my two cents:


1) Banning youth from extra curricular activities is counter productive. What are the consequences for the punk kid who hangs on the street corner at the end of the day or in the middle of the day when he skips out of school?

2) The school does have "Custodial" responsibility in the legal sense of the term. Custody meaning a responsibility for the child's immediate needs and permission to have those needs met. i.e. medical releases etc.

3) Kids and drugs are wrong, always. Never is there circumstance where it is okay and as a parent, I want to know if my kid dabbles. I have seen too many kids end up in serious trouble because their parents felt they coudln't do anything with them or didn't want to know what they were up to. Ignoring the child's activities doesn't make the problem go away.

4) As soon as you are handed that school handbook, those are the rules your child lives by. NO exceptions. I know. I fought the school over one little rule and while I didn't win, my son did as the school and I worked as a team to deal with the issues.

5) Test my kid. I want to know. However, I do not want him pulled from extra curricular activities indefinitely. I think he should return after the first clean drug test and about a month of serious consequences at home.

Kids have rights and responsibilities. They have lost the sense of responsibility that goes with having rights in this generation. This could be a good move toward revitalizing some sense of responsibility in today's youth and parents.
 
Somehow, as is evident by my av, I doubt that would be the case, dear heart!


:D
 
Nothing's that evident.

Many of the guys pick pictures of chicks for their AV. I wish they could be more open and honest. Like Glamorilla...
 
SINthysist said:
My problem is whith you as a parent saying, "What's wrong if my kid smokes pot..."

IT'S ILLEGAL!

Turn off the grow lights and set a better example...





And now that we have vouchers...

... and remember Lincoln and Carver were self-educated. Your future kid can walk into any public library and get a much better education than is currently being offered under the current social experimentation crucible that we call public education...

While I agree that public education sucks in this country and the library system in most places is a good bit more informative, I have to wonder if you realize that not everyone in this forum lives where you do. Vouchers? do you think they're everywhere? They're not here, I can tell you that... nor are they the last place I lived, nor are they where I go to college. Had vouchers been in place during my HS or earlier, my parents wouldn't have had to put me through some hellish years of public school during which I was humiliated and even told I was mentally/emotionally/physically handicapped and they also wouldn't have had to scrimp and save to put me through the rest of the way in private school. Seriously, vouchers would be a good start, but they're far from widespread yet.

:rose:
 
What I don't get and Lost Cause can help me, here...

Why the thread title?
Who says anything about guilt?


What they have okayed is much the same as the drunken driving laws in this state, probably others. Submit to a breathelizer or accept guilt. Why wouldn't you submit if you have done nothing wrong?

Perhaps, it is a violation of civil rights to ensure that people aren't breaking the laws or aren't at risk of doing so. But, until adults and children demonstrate the judgement necessary to govern their own behavior, someone else must for safety's sake.
 
The vouchers will come. I mean, the court just yesterday gave the final approval...
 
SINthysist said:
The vouchers will come. I mean, the court just yesterday gave the final approval...

Which court? a federal court? cause I sure didn't hear about it.
Seriously, I'm curious.

:rose:
 
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