Support the troops?

[Primalex]

It's interesting that you picked up on that comment of Tabeas, instead of the one that is much more important and much more difficult to answer;

It's interesting that you picked up on the unimportant part, instead of the one that is much more important and much more interesting to answer:

"So in the interest of all people being equal should we thank no one for their service so that we don't end up thanking someone who doesn't deserve it?"

After all, this thread isn't titled "Support our firefighters!", it's "[Why]Support the troops?", which makes Keroins attempt to raise the awareness of other important services look more like a jealous outburst.

 

[waaitg]

You're absolutely right - but the Harvard reputation won't catch up with reality until their umpteen billion dollar endowment drops down into the lower atmosphere. As in, never.

$36 billion with an accrual rate (earnings + new pledges) of about $6 billion a year. (source - family member who knows a secretary in the finance dept there)

 

[BiBunny]

Someone--I think it was ITW--said earlier that a lot of the reason the "support the troops" thing here is so big is because Americans are embarrassed for the way soldiers returning home from Vietnam were treated. I definitely think that has a lot to do with it.

 

[waaitg]

Childhood mortality over 25% in the States?

I'd have a hard time believing this number as well.

 

[midwestyankee]

Back to topic

I found this article, about a photo of a grieving military widow, hauntingly germane to our discussion.

 

[Curious_in_Cali]

Childhood mortality over 25% in the States?

I read that to be 1 in ever 4th childhood death is related to childhood abuse. Not that we are loosing 25% of our kids to child abuse.

Maybe I misread it, though.

 

[ecstaticsub]

I found this article, about a photo of a grieving military widow, hauntingly germane to our discussion.

Thank you for that link. It is appreciated.

 

[Stella_Omega]

It's interesting that you picked up on the unimportant part, instead of the one that is much more important and much more interesting to answer:

"So in the interest of all people being equal should we thank no one for their service so that we don't end up thanking someone who doesn't deserve it?"

After all, this thread isn't titled "Support our firefighters!", it's "[Why]Support the troops?", which makes Keroins attempt to raise the awareness of other important services look more like a jealous outburst.

Keroin's comment wasn't at all about "all people being equal."

She was saying that certain jobs are just as important to our nation as the military.

You might disagree with this, but I think that this particular military is doing their damnedest to accomplish an absolutely unworthy, unnecessary job that never should have been initiated and shame on the USA for sending them to do it. I agree with Tabeas, we have only made the world worse, we have raised the bar for misery everywhere. And we and our children will pay for that disgusting bully hubris.

That's my opinion, you do not have to share it. I'd be shocked if you did.

 

[Keroin]

Keroin's comment wasn't at all about "all people being equal."

She was saying that certain jobs are just as important to our nation as the military.

Yup.

In Canada, RCMP officers can sign up for nine month peacekeeping missions. They are sent overseas to work with organizations such as the UN, serving in war zones or places recovering from conflict. Just as valuable as the work a soldier does, IMO.

But they are civilians.

 

[waaitg]

Yup.

In Canada, RCMP officers can sign up for nine month peacekeeping missions. They are sent overseas to work with organizations such as the UN, serving in war zones or places recovering from conflict. Just as valuable as the work a soldier does, IMO.

But they are civilians.

Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) or Doctors Without Borders is another group of civilians who help out where humanitarian relief is required.

 

[graceanne]

Childhood mortality over 25% in the States?

No, out of the children who die, 25% die because of child abuse. Not 25% of children die of child abuse, although when I relooked I can see I quoted it so it looks like I was saying that. Out of the children who die, in the US, 25% die of child abuse.

 

[knot_sweet]

There are many professions that make a huge difference to the betterment of their community / country / others.

The people that work in these professions make alot of personal sacrifices and are due a thanks.

There a plenty of words I could say to try and paint a picture of what it feels like to put on a uniform and know that other people's lives depend on you. But the same words could be said about many professions.

But the reason you are thanking a military person is the same reason you should be thanking a Police Officer, Public Executioner or Abortionist.

These are the people who agree to take the life of a person on behalf on another.

Regardless of whether you personally agree with the politics behind these professions. Regardless of the argument. Regardless of your own personal belief.

These people agree to take life. Not because they want to. Not because they enjoy it. But because they can live with the choice that needs to be made when other people have decided to make it. And that takes something out of a person.

You're thanking these people for agreeing to sacrifice part of themselves.

Vets and slaughterhouse workers do it to, but it's animal life. And that takes something special too.

Let the public villification begin...

 

[Netzach]

There are many professions that make a huge difference to the betterment of their community / country / others.

The people that work in these professions make alot of personal sacrifices and are due a thanks.

There a plenty of words I could say to try and paint a picture of what it feels like to put on a uniform and know that other people's lives depend on you. But the same words could be said about many professions.

But the reason you are thanking a military person is the same reason you should be thanking a Police Officer, Public Executioner or Abortionist.

These are the people who agree to take the life of a person on behalf on another.

Regardless of whether you personally agree with the politics behind these professions. Regardless of the argument. Regardless of your own personal belief.

These people agree to take life. Not because they want to. Not because they enjoy it. But because they can live with the choice that needs to be made when other people have decided to make it. And that takes something out of a person.

You're thanking these people for agreeing to sacrifice part of themselves.

Vets and slaughterhouse workers do it to, but it's animal life. And that takes something special too.

Let the public villification begin...

No vilification here, though some philosophical differences that will never be ironed out regarding your last example.

 

[Shankara20]

These are the people who agree to take the life of a person on behalf on another.

Rachel MacNair coined the term Perpetration-Induced Traumatic Stress to describe the emotional impact of exactly what you are talking about.

Granted, her research is driven to support her philosophy so I would not call her a neutral researcher,but I find the concept worth considering.

People how take a life, or a potential life (please, I am pro-choice and really don't want to make this a discussion about abortion), pay an emotional price.


"MacNair's doctoral research was on the psychology of killing. She studied soldiers, torturers, executioners, policemen, abortionists, veterinarians, bullfighters and Nazi records. She pored over the National Vietnam Veterans Readjustment Study, analyzed the nearly 1700 questionnaires in a new manner, and found that soldiers who reported having killed someone were more likely to suffer psychological harm. She coined the term "Perpetration-Induced Traumatic Stress" (PITS), a form of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) that may affect those such as soldiers, police and doctors who participate in killing."

 

[Keroin]

But the reason you are thanking a military person is the same reason you should be thanking a Police Officer, Public Executioner or Abortionist.

You've just reinforced my original point. I've never in my life seen someone go up to a random police officer and thank them for their service to the country. Sure, those folks get thank you's in various forms, but those tend to be either at formal events or in the moment they have done something to directly benefit an individual. And they also get the polar opposite of gratitude much of the time.

Also, the CIA has killed its share of people over the years, in the service of the people - or so they would have everyone believe. Likewise, secret service people take on the job knowing they may have to die, or kill someone. Etc, etc.

And I'm sure those outside the military who have killed as part of their job description suffer just as much as soldiers.

 

[RjThoughts]

I found this article, about a photo of a grieving military widow, hauntingly germane to our discussion.

"that those who are gone are not forgotten."

THIS IS WHAT MEMORIAL DAY IS FOR!! None of this faux, pseudo patriotism to include ALL service people.

 

[Stella_Omega]

"that those who are gone are not forgotten."

THIS IS WHAT MEMORIAL DAY IS FOR!! None of this faux, pseudo patriotism to include ALL service people.

Just the dead ones, huh.

 

[RjThoughts]

Just the dead ones, huh.

Read the true meaning of Memorial/Decoration Day, and you'll see why 'just the dead'.

Originally to honor those that died during the Civil War, then for ALL wars. This BULLSHIT about this weekend for ALL service members is nonsense!!

It irratates my father-in-law to no end, as it does the other veterans at his nursing/rehabilitation facility when they see the outpouring of patriotic fervor for service men and women. Monday is put aside for us to take a moment and give thanks to those that have made the ultimate sacrifice in service to the United States. You want to remember ALL members, living, dead, active, that's what Novemer 11th is for.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I'll take that as a "yes, just the dead."

 

[RjThoughts]

I'll take that as a "yes, just the dead."

Take it however you want, what ever makes you feel better. This post-9/11 pseudo-patriotism has caused this nation to forget the true meaning of Monday!

 

[ecstaticsub]

Read the true meaning of Memorial/Decoration Day, and you'll see why 'just the dead'.

Originally to honor those that died during the Civil War, then for ALL wars. This BULLSHIT about this weekend for ALL service members is nonsense!!

It irratates my father-in-law to no end, as it does the other veterans at his nursing/rehabilitation facility when they see the outpouring of patriotic fervor for service men and women. Monday is put aside for us to take a moment and give thanks to those that have made the ultimate sacrifice in service to the United States. You want to remember ALL members, living, dead, active, that's what Novemer 11th is for.

Yes, thank you.

 

[midwestyankee]

Take it however you want, what ever makes you feel better. This post-9/11 pseudo-patriotism has caused this nation to forget the true meaning of Monday!

This is true. It's also a subset of the point I was trying to make earlier: that the efflorescence of pseudo-patriotism has begun to rot out a vital part of our national psyche.

 

[Primalex]

She was saying that certain jobs are just as important to our nation as the military.

Yes, she was. In _addition_ to what I wrote about the text - not _instead_.

You might disagree with this, but I think that this particular military is doing their damnedest to accomplish an absolutely unworthy, unnecessary job that never should have been initiated and shame on the USA for sending them to do it. I agree with Tabeas, we have only made the world worse, we have raised the bar for misery everywhere. And we and our children will pay for that disgusting bully hubris.

The funny thing about the future is that it is not predictable.

Would the world be a better place if someone had killed Hitler 1930?

Imagine there wouldn't have been World War 2. Scientists would have developed the nuclear bomb a few years later (less pressure and financial support) and there wouldn't have been a "test drive" on Hiroshima. Without realizing the full potential of the weapon, they might have not cared about the "Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons". Nuclear weapons would have been transferred to "trustworthy" other countries just like any other weapon today and fucked up governments and terrorists would have much easier access to them.

A better world?

We can continue this any way we want. Germany, without getting hit on the head for WW2, would have developed as another superpower, but this time with its own huge nuclear weapon arsenal. Now someone else starts to babble about the superior Aryan race there and as they didn't touch the burner before and didn't learn something valuable about crazy fuckwits in important positions, Europe might now be a nuclear wasteground.

A better world?


No, I'm not saying that we should thank Hitler for turning the world into a better place. But it's damned dangerous to wish for an alternate future, just because there is the off-chance it could have been a better one - it could have been a much worse one, too.

Adulthood means making decisions and living with the results. "We" are in the comfortable position to "just" make this for our own live and maybe our children (and still we are able to fuck this up seriously). We elect people to make the decisions for all people in a country. Do they make the right decisions? Hm, I'll answer this with a passage from The Fifth Elephant:

'And perhaps most importantly, every decision made under dwarf law for fifteen hundred years is written down in this room, look you.'
Vimes turned. A dwarf, short even by dwarf standards, was standing behind him. He seemed to be expecting a reply.
'Er, every decision?'
'Oh, yes.'
'Er, were they all good?' said Vimes.
'The important thing is that they were all made,' said the King.

 

[Netzach]

Yes, she was. In _addition_ to what I wrote about the text - not _instead_.



The funny thing about the future is that it is not predictable.

Would the world be a better place if someone had killed Hitler 1930?

Imagine there wouldn't have been World War 2. Scientists would have developed the nuclear bomb a few years later (less pressure and financial support) and there wouldn't have been a "test drive" on Hiroshima. Without realizing the full potential of the weapon, they might have not cared about the "Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons". Nuclear weapons would have been transferred to "trustworthy" other countries just like any other weapon today and fucked up governments and terrorists would have much easier access to them.

A better world?

We can continue this any way we want. Germany, without getting hit on the head for WW2, would have developed as another superpower, but this time with its own huge nuclear weapon arsenal. Now someone else starts to babble about the superior Aryan race there and as they didn't touch the burner before and didn't learn something valuable about crazy fuckwits in important positions, Europe might now be a nuclear wasteground.

A better world?


No, I'm not saying that we should thank Hitler for turning the world into a better place. But it's damned dangerous to wish for an alternate future, just because there is the off-chance it could have been a better one - it could have been a much worse one, too.

Adulthood means making decisions and living with the results. "We" are in the comfortable position to "just" make this for our own live and maybe our children (and still we are able to fuck this up seriously). We elect people to make the decisions for all people in a country. Do they make the right decisions? Hm, I'll answer this with a passage from The Fifth Elephant:

'And perhaps most importantly, every decision made under dwarf law for fifteen hundred years is written down in this room, look you.'
Vimes turned. A dwarf, short even by dwarf standards, was standing behind him. He seemed to be expecting a reply.
'Er, every decision?'
'Oh, yes.'
'Er, were they all good?' said Vimes.
'The important thing is that they were all made,' said the King.

You're so right. All those people in Syria and Iran trying to change shit with dissent should definitely STFU and let history play out. It's just reassuring to know that Ahmadinejad is making those tough calls at night. It was a "close" democratic election after all.

 

[Primalex]

You're so right. All those people in Syria and Iran trying to change shit with dissent should definitely STFU and let history play out. It's just reassuring to know that Ahmadinejad is making those tough calls at night. It was a "close" democratic election after all.

Oh please, you are smarter than this, at least I still believe this.


(The really sad thing is that we even have a prime example of your ironic comment becoming more or less true. The Egypt revolution made Mubarak retreat and the military forces took over. And...do you think the blue bra girl would have said, Egypt is now a better place? The Muslim Brotherhood #1 and the Salafists as #2 now as government - what do you think how women will live in Egypt the next few years?)