Support the troops?

[Stella_Omega]

And I would still walk up to you and thank you for your service on my behalf. Because I would rather accidentally thank someone who didn't deserve it than intentionally snub someone who did deserve it.

I might also remind you that you are out of uniform for not having your rank, name and battalion patches displayed properly.

Do you really intrude on people's privacy that way?

 

[Cattypuss]

Do you really intrude on people's privacy that way?

LOL that's what I've been wondering.

 

[ControlandDom]

It's hard to take the opinion seriously of someone who handled themselves "ControlandDom."

And so far, it hasn't gotten any easier.

It's nice to see you can judge someone so superficially.

Guess you've never had that done to you.

 

[JMohegan]

Really? Maybe I believe the same. While I completely disagree that any German solider who fought in WWII is under appreciated or should be thanked for their service.

I also think a lot less Americans nowadays believe in either war or that it has made the world safer. If given a second chance a lot more would be opposed to going to war.

Only time will tell how the wars impacted the world.

http://costsofwar.org/article/iraqi-civilians

If you're one of the three and half million Iraqis displaced from their homes, or a relative of one of the more than 120k Iraqis killed, or an Iraqi living with infrastructure damage so great you haven't had access to clean water in nearly a decade, my guess is that you don't need any more time to reach a conclusion on the impact of that war.

There were German soldiers in WWII and American soldiers in the Iraq War who committed atrocities, or stood by and watched others commit atrocities without stepping in. But there were also German soldiers in WWII and American soldiers in the Iraq War who were just following orders, doing their patriotic duty as it were.

From a general moral point view, the only difference I see is that the consequences of refusal to serve were much greater for individual Germans and their families, rendering the fight/don't fight calculus more challenging.

Of course, there's a big difference in how those soldiers are regarded, depending on where one is sitting.

 

[Stella_Omega]

It's nice to see you can judge someone so superficially.

Guess you've never had that done to you.

Prove me wrong.

 

[JMohegan]

I did ask if German soldiers should be thanked because I think it is an interesting question. Should every soldier who wanted to defend his country be thanked or should only those be thanked who fought in a rightful war? Whether the war was justified or not doesn't impact the individual soldier's suffering.

This thread made me realize for the first time that my grandfathers did actually have a hard time. That was never talked about.

Do you believe the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were justified? And if it turns out that the wars were not justified, do you think American soldiers should be thanked?

It seems that you somehow infered from my question that I believe German soldiers in the second world war should be thanked. Of course I don't believe that, but I also wouldn't thank American soldiers.

It seems to me that the focus on soldiers is misplaced when discussing "rightful" vs. unjustified war propagated by a democracy. Instead, the focus should be on the electorate.

 

[Shankara20]

http://costsofwar.org/article/iraqi-civilians

Thank you.

I have considered adding my voice but you and Yankee seem to have all those bases covered.

Carry on.

 

[waaitg]

Hey, if you believe Josef Mengele should be thanked for his service and is under appreciated then that's your opinion.

He was a doctor after all.

Just like the Doctors who ran the Tuskegee experiments on US citizens and withheld treatments for decades from the victims (unlike Mengele who was only in effect for less than a decade).

But hey, pulling extreme examples is "just a game" isn't it when you're being smart ass and condescending.

"WINK"

 

[Keroin]

Yes, initially it is a choice. But 1 year or two years into it you can't change your mind. You can't decide to not go where they move you to, or not to follow a specific order, or to change a career path unless the military agrees. Even when your commitment is up if the military decides they still need you they can deny your request for retirement or separation.

The military isn't the only profession that offers education benefits.

There are tons of benefits that civilian jobs offer that the military does not. Trying to compare benefits is too difficult because of all the different civilian jobs.

The work that a military member does is not better than their civilian counterpart but for the most part the level of sacrifice is much greater.

My experience as a military spouse is something I will always be grateful for. The way the military family pulls together is awesome. I miss that part of the military, I miss living on base. I don't miss the deployments, the moving constantly, the stress, and the lack of control over our lives.

On paper, yes. I know a few national guardsmen who were denied their GI benefits because the rules changed after they signed up but before they started drawing the benefits.


One soldier I know was made a tank mechanic. There aren't many tanks in the civilian world and he hasn't found an employer yet that recognizes tank mechanics as "real mechanics". I've also worked in a clinic where high school drop outs start as receptionists and go on to be nurses through the on the job training they receive.


But most of them know what their in for when they take the job. When enlisted personnel sign up all they know for sure is that they are going to basic training. They only get assigned an occupation once they complete basic training and by then its too late to get out.

I'm not going to get into an argument over minute details. There are pluses and minuses to every choice everyone makes in life. For every story you can tell about a friend who got the short end of the stick for their military service, someone else will have a story about a friend who reaped the rewards of their military service, and so on. And there are both civilian and military who make enormous sacrifices for the benefit of others. I know ex-military who have enjoyed wonderful benefits from their time in the service, just as I know civilians who have benefited from their career choice. I know ex-military who have paid a high price for their service, and civilians who have paid an equally high price for the service they gave to their fellow citizens.

And while civilians 'technically' may have the option to quit their jobs, and certainly don't face jail time for doing so, they may face other hardships - watching their families go hungry, for one. Sometimes the only alternative to working at a job you hate(especially these days) is poverty, homelessness, and hunger - not much of an option at all.

You've both lived the life, so it's natural that you see military service as a greater sacrifice than any kind of civilian service. Completely understandable. And here's where I just respectfully agree to disagree.

 

[Licia]

That said, just as not all soldiers get into to serve their country, neither do all teachers get in to teaching for the right reasons. My kindergarten teacher told me I was too stupid to learn to read, my first grade teacher said I was a hateful brat and would mark my tests wrong, even when they were right. I don't remember my second, third, or fifth grade teachers. My fourth grade teacher was good, and my sixth grade teacher was good, but in seventh grade I had a teacher who would sign stuff for me to take to my mom, and then tell my mom that she hadn't, and that I'd forged her signature. The stories don't get any better from that point on. I'm as unlikely to assume that just because someone is a teacher they deserve thanks as Keroin is to assume a soldier went into the army to serve. In my experience, most teachers get into teaching because they have control issues, and they need to control everything and everyone around them, and when they meet a child who isn't normal (I was being beat routinely by my mother - so sorry!), they do their best to force them into some preset mold they concieved with their words and actions.

I agree that horrible teachers are a stain on the profession. When confronted by an instructor such as you've mentioned my respond toggle switch flipped to ignore. The rules were always obeyed because in my house there was hell to pay if there was trouble at school. Even the horrible "professionals" encouraged my critcal thinking. More apt to solve my own problems, I did what I could to negate a wrathful step-paternal confrontation. A child's rationale: "you're not my boss, and I *will* prove it."

Respect is something I automatically extend to a person (I will at least try.) Unless they are explicitly rude, an encouter differs from normal operating procedure.

...And...back on topic.

'Twould be easier for the rest of us if everyone who served their country or community wore a special outfit, but 'twill never happen.

The dress a cop, figherfighter or military person finds themselves wearing is really a societal queue in which "we" have been conditioned to respond to "appropriately." Religious garb is also used in the same fashion--the list could be infinite. Fantastic teachers, volunteers and peace workers are normally incognito: no social queue, and more difficult to spot; hence, thankless.

I believe that since we are subjected to certain types of societal conditioning that most of the group will be predisposed to act "appropriately." Respect should be earned is not at all an inappropriate behavior, but an important lesson.

 

[Shankara20]

One soldier I know was made a tank mechanic. There aren't many tanks in the civilian world and he hasn't found an employer yet that recognizes tank mechanics as "real mechanics". I've also worked in a clinic where high school drop outs start as receptionists and go on to be nurses through the on the job training they receive.

Exactly! I was a highly trained survival equipment specialist in the Navy. My specialty was parachutes for A-6 crews. My buddy of mine who was about to retire after 20 years was looking to purchase and operate a neighborhood ice cream truck.

The transferable job skills for many in the military can be learned at McDonald's - show up on time, keep yourself neat and clean when possible, follow directions, do your job as trained, be a reliable member of the team. Please, don't misunderstand this, there are many many other life skills one gets from military service. But there are a few things some take away from the military that are actually detrimental to civilian work - dominating language, unwillingness to come to and honor consensus, misogyny, etc.

Recruiters use "job training" as a selling tool without disclosing that returning vets have a higher unemployment rate then the general population. If someone wants to be in the military for the military, fine by me. I enjoyed my time in the Navy. It helped my grow and at time I miss it. But don't give me this "future job training" claptrap.

 

[Licia]

I, personally, on my own, with no expectation of anyone to do the same, place more value on the sacrifice of the military personnel than of a civilian.

A friend used to agree with those exact same sentiments, but the phrasing was different.

Me: So... you think that because you served in the military and served in the Gulf that you are better than a civy?

Friend: Yes.

Me: *chuckle* No one has tried to step on my soil muchless threaten the "freedom" of my country.

Friend: obvious desire to :caning:

Me: Look, I understand why you want to spank me, but to actually believe that you have more value than another person is just ... well, wrong.

 

[RjThoughts]

And I would still walk up to you and thank you for your service on my behalf. Because I would rather accidentally thank someone who didn't deserve it than intentionally snub someone who did deserve it.

I might also remind you that you are out of uniform for not having your rank, name and battalion patches displayed properly.

You do realize that some vetrans do NOT wished to be thank, wish NOT to have to explain why they did what they did?

Father-in-law is a WWII Navy vet. We do NOT speak of his war experiences.

 

[RjThoughts]

Exactly! I was a highly trained survival equipment specialist in the Navy. My specialty was parachutes for A-6 crews. My buddy of mine who was about to retire after 20 years was looking to purchase and operate a neighborhood ice cream truck.

The transferable job skills for many in the military can be learned at McDonald's - show up on time, keep yourself neat and clean when possible, follow directions, do your job as trained, be a reliable member of the team. Please, don't misunderstand this, there are many many other life skills one gets from military service. But there are a few things some take away from the military that are actually detrimental to civilian work - dominating language, unwillingness to come to and honor consensus, misogyny, etc.

Recruiters use "job training" as a selling tool without disclosing that returning vets have a higher unemployment rate then the general population. If someone wants to be in the military for the military, fine by me. I enjoyed my time in the Navy. It helped my grow and at time I miss it. But don't give me this "future job training" claptrap.

Neighbor across the street is a former Marine gunnery seargent. Because of the woman he married, he is now an associate professor of American History at the local 4-year college. There was no way his skills he learned in the service would adequately transfer to civilian life. He married a college student when they were both 20, she going on to receive a Masters in English. When he left the Marines, he immediately went to school, earning his B.A. then Masters in 4 years. He is a doctorate candidate this spring, we'll find out in a week whether or not we can call him "Doctor Gunny."

 

[waaitg]

Short and simple because no matter what I say, it will piss off someone

Should troops be supported? Definitely.
Are they the only profession worthy of support? Not the only profession in my opinion. Other professions I consider respectable include Police Officers, Firemen, Doctors, Lawyers, The Clergy, Teachers to name a few.
Do they perform the same role as soldiers? No.
Do they perform a special role deserving respect? Absolutely

I think part of the reason that certain soldiers (and certain professions) are viewed automatically with a higher regard is that the requirements and risks of their profession are usually greater than that of someone else (e.g. a cashier). And I don't have a problem with this. I do have a problem though with people who believe I have a duty to have that opinion or any right to dictate what I believe.

And while I believe that the Police Officers, Firemen, Doctors, Lawyers, The Clergy, and Teachers also deserve respect due to the sacrifices they have made and the challenges they face everyday, I don't expect anyone else to agree with me or that they are obligated to have the same opinion as I.

 

[Stella_Omega]

It seems to me that the focus on soldiers is misplaced when discussing "rightful" vs. unjustified war propagated by a democracy. Instead, the focus should be on the electorate.

Yes. .

 

[RjThoughts]

Saw this on a bumper sticker:

Love the Warrior
Hate the War

 

[ControlandDom]

Just like the Doctors who ran the Tuskegee experiments on US citizens and withheld treatments for decades from the victims (unlike Mengele who was only in effect for less than a decade).

But hey, pulling extreme examples is "just a game" isn't it when you're being smart ass and condescending.

"WINK"

Exactly.

 

[graceanne]

Of course those teachers were wrong in saying those things to you. But I do undestand that it is very difficult and often frustrating to deal with children who experienced violence. I volunteer (not for the praise ) with kids who were beaten or whose mothers were. Many of the kids are extremely difficult to handle.

Then they shouldn't be in the job. Any teacher who gets into the profession, and thinks they aren't going to meet children from dysfunctional homes is a moron or in major amounts of denial - 61% of children in America have been victims of neglect, 44 percent were victims of abuse, and 1 in 4 children die because of child abuse (found here.) If they can't handle it, then they shouldn't be in that profession. period.

I do feel sorry for their teachers. The children often need one person's full attention just to stay seated and reasonably quiet, so how the teachers actually manage with a few kids like that while at the same time having to teach them and 24 other children something I really don't know.

I actually was a very well behaved child. None of my teachers, EVER, could point to something I actually did as a reason for their dislike of me. I was being abused, I wasn't being neglected - I knew how to behave and just so we're clear - I have an IQ around 130ish, they weren't teaching anything I couldn't learn. Plus, I'd come directly from a Montessori preschool and had already learned proper classroom etiquette. Know who my kindergarten teacher liked? A pretty little girl named Jeniffer with long dark hair that was always in fancy braids who wore name brand clothes. Jeniffer lived next door to me, and her mom and mine got along just fine - suffice it to say I wasn't the only child being abused. She didn't like me because I wasn't cute and giggly - in other words because I was more mature than she, the teacher, was. I can list other examples of my teachers, but I've made my point.

I'll restate what I already said - if teachers aren't prepared to handle kids from dysfunctional homes they should quit.

 

[the captians wench]

The transferable job skills for many in the military can be learned at McDonald's - show up on time, keep yourself neat and clean when possible, follow directions, do your job as trained, be a reliable member of the team. Please, don't misunderstand this, there are many many other life skills one gets from military service. But there are a few things some take away from the military that are actually detrimental to civilian work - dominating language, unwillingness to come to and honor consensus, misogyny, etc.

This made me snicker a bit.


Mostly because of us in the biz will laugh and say if you can't make it at McD's you have issues.


I also find it amusing that McD's is always the one used for these examples. You never hear "or you'll be flipping burgers at Wendy's!"

 

[Shankara20]

I also find it amusing that McD's is always the one used for these examples. You never hear "or you'll be flipping burgers at Wendy's!"

Because McD's is like the North Star, like a touchstone, like the Oricale of Delphi, like...




...ok, I might have got carried away there a bit

 

[midwestyankee]

This made me snicker a bit.


Mostly because of us in the biz will laugh and say if you can't make it at McD's you have issues.


I also find it amusing that McD's is always the one used for these examples. You never hear "or you'll be flipping burgers at Wendy's!"

It's the same reason why people always refer to Harvard when they want to talk about exclusive high-prestige colleges, or Microsoft when they want to talk about big high-tech firms. It's the penalty and the benefit of being the biggest and the best.

 

[Netzach]

It's the same reason why people always refer to Harvard when they want to talk about exclusive high-prestige colleges, or Microsoft when they want to talk about big high-tech firms. It's the penalty and the benefit of being the biggest and the best.

I would not send an undergraduate to Harvard under any circumstances, ugh. Reputation, sure but legacy dumbass classmates, and sleepless graduate student profs are not worth the price tag per semester even with substantial aid.

 

[midwestyankee]

I would not send an undergraduate to Harvard under any circumstances, ugh. Reputation, sure but legacy dumbass classmates, and sleepless graduate student profs are not worth the price tag per semester even with substantial aid.

You're absolutely right - but the Harvard reputation won't catch up with reality until their umpteen billion dollar endowment drops down into the lower atmosphere. As in, never.

 

[Primalex]

and 1 in 4 children die because of child abuse

Childhood mortality over 25% in the States?