Support the troops?

[Keroin]

So I know I am not explaining my point as well I would like. Perhaps only a military member can understand why there is a difference.

No, I understand what you're saying. And I don't disagree that the military is different...I just don't believe that it's "better". The jobs performed by military men and women, however varied, are no more or less important than any other job that benefits all of the citizens of a country.

Equal, that's what I'm saying.

They should understand. The fact that the majority of people don't "get it" or even try to understand frustrates me more then I can say.

That's how I feel every time I see people going into an aquarium to watch captive whales and dolphins. How do they not "get it"? It makes me furious. It is difficult but I have to remind myself that empathy is learned and those people have not lived my life, have not seen what I've seen, have not experienced what I've experienced.

And I'm sure I do things that frustrate others, out of sheer ignorance and nothing more. We live complicated lives. We can only do our best to try and cultivate empathy in our own lives and help to educate others as we go.

 

[cfuhrer]

Not sure if I want to get into this discussion or not. Coming to this thread will probably just wickedly piss me off

Can I sit here on the sidelines with you?

 

[cfuhrer]

Equal, that's what I'm saying.

So following this logic that occupations within the military are equal to those outside of the military. We can extend that logic to the horizon and hypothesize that all occupations outside the military are equal.

So based on that we have two people standing side by side:

Two individuals dressed in scrubs. Which is the pediatric nurse at an inner city hospital and which is the high school drop out working as a receptionist for a plastic surgeon.

Do we thank them both for their service to their country?

Two individuals dressed in suits. Which is the Beverly Hills divorce lawyer and which is a county prosecutor putting child molesters in jail.

Do we thank them both for their service to their country?

So in the interest of all people being equal should we thank no one for their service so that we don't end up thanking someone who doesn't deserve it?

 

[Tabea]

If you are volunteering for the praise, you are doing it for the wrong reason.

Does it really matter? As long as people actually help others I don't think their motives are important. There are people who do it to improve their CVs, I don't see anything wrong with that.

In my experience, most teachers get into teaching because they have control issues, and they need to control everything and everyone around them, and when they meet a child who isn't normal (I was being beat routinely by my mother - so sorry!), they do their best to force them into some preset mold they concieved with their words and actions.

Of course those teachers were wrong in saying those things to you. But I do undestand that it is very difficult and often frustrating to deal with children who experienced violence. I volunteer (not for the praise ) with kids who were beaten or whose mothers were. Many of the kids are extremely difficult to handle. I do feel sorry for their teachers. The children often need one person's full attention just to stay seated and reasonably quiet, so how the teachers actually manage with a few kids like that while at the same time having to teach them and 24 other children something I really don't know.


On topic:
When I saw people thanking others for their service on this board I found it strange.

It is obviously not something done in Germany. While we are not involved in wars, there are German soldiers risking their lives in conflict areas. German soldiers have died in Afghanistan. The chancellor and the president occasionally thank soldiers in their speeches, but they also thank police men and volunteers. I think speeches by politicians are the appropriate venues for thanks to soldiers. Usually you only say thank you for actions that have directly benefited yourself or your family. That Americans believe the wars in Iraq und Afghanistan have made it safer for them puzzles me. I think that the wars have only made the world more dangerous. People do get upset when you kill their relatives.

My grandfathers were soldiers during the second world war. They had no choice and were told they were defending their country. Should somebody have thanked them? I don't think anybody ever appreciated their suffering.

 

[Stella_Omega]

So following this logic that occupations within the military are equal to those outside of the military. We can extend that logic to the horizon and hypothesize that all occupations outside the military are equal.

So based on that we have two people standing side by side:

Two individuals dressed in scrubs. Which is the pediatric nurse at an inner city hospital and which is the high school drop out working as a receptionist for a plastic surgeon.

Do we thank them both for their service to their country?

Two individuals dressed in suits. Which is the Beverly Hills divorce lawyer and which is a county prosecutor putting child molesters in jail.

Do we thank them both for their service to their country?

So in the interest of all people being equal should we thank no one for their service so that we don't end up thanking someone who doesn't deserve it?

That's what happens when you do something silly like "extend the logic to the horizon." What you are actually doing there is "finding the exception that proves the rule" (Prove used to mean "test").

How about you compare similar jobs in the military and civilian life, which would address the actual argument?

So you have a field medic and a neonatal nurse in an inner city hospital. Yes, I think both deserve equal praise for bravery and heroism.

 

[ControlandDom]

My grandfathers were soldiers during the second world war. They had no choice and were told they were defending their country. Should somebody have thanked them? I don't think anybody ever appreciated their suffering.

Are you really trying to get sympathy for Nazi soldiers?

And are you really asking should Nazi soldiers be thanked for their service?

Wow.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Are you really trying to get sympathy for Nazi soldiers?

And are you really asking should Nazi soldiers be thanked for their service?

Wow.

It's interesting that you picked up on that comment of Tabeas, instead of the one that is much more important and much more difficult to answer;

That Americans believe the wars in Iraq und Afghanistan have made it safer for them puzzles me. I think that the wars have only made the world more dangerous.

 

[Keroin]

So you have a field medic and a neonatal nurse in an inner city hospital. Yes, I think both deserve equal praise for bravery and heroism.

Yes, and this was my point.

Both offering service to the citizens of their country, both deserving of praise. One military, one civilian, but equal in terms of what they do for us.

 

[cfuhrer]

That's what happens when you do something silly like "extend the logic to the horizon." What you are actually doing there is "finding the exception that proves the rule" (Prove used to mean "test").

How about you compare similar jobs in the military and civilian life, which would address the actual argument?

So you have a field medic and a neonatal nurse in an inner city hospital. Yes, I think both deserve equal praise for bravery and heroism.

Do we thank everyone we see on the street, or do we pretend to not see the service member in uniform? How can we make sure that everyone who deserves thanks gets it and those who don't do not?

 

[intothewoods]

So following this logic that occupations within the military are equal to those outside of the military. We can extend that logic to the horizon and hypothesize that all occupations outside the military are equal.

So based on that we have two people standing side by side:

Two individuals dressed in scrubs. Which is the pediatric nurse at an inner city hospital and which is the high school drop out working as a receptionist for a plastic surgeon.

Do we thank them both for their service to their country?

Two individuals dressed in suits. Which is the Beverly Hills divorce lawyer and which is a county prosecutor putting child molesters in jail.

Do we thank them both for their service to their country?

So in the interest of all people being equal should we thank no one for their service so that we don't end up thanking someone who doesn't deserve it?

I went back and read K's post first -- she said equal to "any other job that benefits all of the citizens of a country." (emphasis added)

I certainly don't agree that all jobs, military or not, are equal. But a teacher, a police officer, someone who runs a soup kitchen or otherwise feeds the poor -- these are all people doing important work who deserve our thanks.

I think the thing about the argument, hey, what about teachers, cops, etc. is that it's not either or. There are lots of people who do important and selfless work that we might not be aware of. I know attorneys who are self-centered fucks, but I also know a few who do a lot of pro bono work, or give lots of time in their own communities, etc.

Who knows what the deal with that dude in the other thread was. I myself can't imagine ever serving in the military and I'm no hawk, but I have met plenty of military service members where I live and have never once heard anyone say something snide like the comment made in the other thread.

 

[ControlandDom]

It's interesting that you picked up on that comment of Tabeas, instead of the one that is much more important and much more difficult to answer;

Really? Maybe I believe the same. While I completely disagree that any German solider who fought in WWII is under appreciated or should be thanked for their service.

I also think a lot less Americans nowadays believe in either war or that it has made the world safer. If given a second chance a lot more would be opposed to going to war.

Only time will tell how the wars impacted the world.

 

[cfuhrer]

Yes, and this was my point.

Both offering service to the citizens of their country, both deserving of praise. One military, one civilian, but equal in terms of what they do for us.

The civilian goes home to their family at night. The civilian has free time during which they truly can do whatever they want. The civilian can decide to quit any time they want. To my knowledge the shortest term of military service available is four years and breaking that contract doesn't land you in civil court for damages in lands you in criminal court for jail time. The pay isn't equal, the benefits aren't equal.

Our benefit from both is equal, but the sacrifice on their end isn't equal.

 

[Keroin]

The civilian goes home to their family at night. The civilian has free time during which they truly can do whatever they want. The civilian can decide to quit any time they want. To my knowledge the shortest term of military service available is four years and breaking that contract doesn't land you in civil court for damages in lands you in criminal court for jail time. The pay isn't equal, the benefits aren't equal.

Our benefit from both is equal, but the sacrifice on their end isn't equal.

It is also my understanding that this is a choice. Also, are there not opportunities for those who serve to have their education paid for? Also, you can enter the military without a skill and recieve training that will carry over into civilian life. There are benefits along with the sacrifice that civilians don't receive in their jobs.

Also, not all civilian workers get to go home to their families at the end of the day. There are all kinds of jobs that involve being out in the field for months at a time, sometimes in extremely rough conditions.

 

[midwestyankee]

Are you really trying to get sympathy for Nazi soldiers?

And are you really asking should Nazi soldiers be thanked for their service?

Wow.

Let's see here. Is your argument that German soldiers should not have been thanked for their service because Germany lost that war? If so, then we should not have thanked the men and women who served for the U. S. in Viet Nam.

Or maybe you think that German soldiers from WWII should not have been thanked because their government did evil things? If so, this can only make sense if you can also argue that American soldiers should be thanked because the United States has never done anything evil. You certainly can't make that argument, can you?

Or maybe you think that no service members who served in opposition to the U. S. should have been thanked by their citizenry. If so, then what's your source for this belief that your jingoism should trump their patriotism?

No matter where, when men and women fight to defend the soil of the mothers and brothers of their homeland, they deserve thanks. On what grounds can you believe otherwise?

 

[Keroin]

BTW, CF, I'm curious why it would bother you that I place equal value on the service of civilians and soldiers? I could see if I was saying that soldiers weren't valuable or that they were less valuable than civilians, but why does the idea of equality upset you?

 

[ControlandDom]

Let's see here. Is your argument that German soldiers should not have been thanked for their service because Germany lost that war? If so, then we should not have thanked the men and women who served for the U. S. in Viet Nam.

Or maybe you think that German soldiers from WWII should not have been thanked because their government did evil things? If so, this can only make sense if you can also argue that American soldiers should be thanked because the United States has never done anything evil. You certainly can't make that argument, can you?

Or maybe you think that no service members who served in opposition to the U. S. should have been thanked by their citizenry. If so, then what's your source for this belief that your jingoism should trump their patriotism?

No matter where, when men and women fight to defend the soil of the mothers and brothers of their homeland, they deserve thanks. On what grounds can you believe otherwise?

Hey, if you believe Josef Mengele should be thanked for his service and is under appreciated then that's your opinion.

He was a doctor after all.

But if you believe all soldiers should be absolved because they are "following orders" then I hope you thank every soldier you come across.

 

[ecstaticsub]

It is also my understanding that this is a choice. Also, are there not opportunities for those who serve to have their education paid for? Also, you can enter the military without a skill and recieve training that will carry over into civilian life. There are benefits along with the sacrifice that civilians don't receive in their jobs.

Also, not all civilian workers get to go home to their families at the end of the day. There are all kinds of jobs that involve being out in the field for months at a time, sometimes in extremely rough conditions.

Yes, initially it is a choice. But 1 year or two years into it you can't change your mind. You can't decide to not go where they move you to, or not to follow a specific order, or to change a career path unless the military agrees. Even when your commitment is up if the military decides they still need you they can deny your request for retirement or separation.

The military isn't the only profession that offers education benefits.

There are tons of benefits that civilian jobs offer that the military does not. Trying to compare benefits is too difficult because of all the different civilian jobs.

The work that a military member does is not better than their civilian counterpart but for the most part the level of sacrifice is much greater.

My experience as a military spouse is something I will always be grateful for. The way the military family pulls together is awesome. I miss that part of the military, I miss living on base. I don't miss the deployments, the moving constantly, the stress, and the lack of control over our lives.

 

[Tabea]

Are you really trying to get sympathy for Nazi soldiers?

And are you really asking should Nazi soldiers be thanked for their service?

Wow.

I did ask if German soldiers should be thanked because I think it is an interesting question. Should every soldier who wanted to defend his country be thanked or should only those be thanked who fought in a rightful war? Whether the war was justified or not doesn't impact the individual soldier's suffering.

This thread made me realize for the first time that my grandfathers did actually have a hard time. That was never talked about.

Do you believe the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were justified? And if it turns out that the wars were not justified, do you think American soldiers should be thanked?

It seems that you somehow infered from my question that I believe German soldiers in the second world war should be thanked. Of course I don't believe that, but I also wouldn't thank American soldiers.

 

[midwestyankee]

Hey, if you believe Josef Mengele should be thanked for his service and is under appreciated then that's your opinion.

He was a doctor after all.

Nice sidestep but it doesn't wash. Talk to me about soldiers and sailors.

But if you believe all soldiers should be absolved because they are "following orders" then I hope you thank every soldier you come across.

You must be a lot of fun in political discussions. Can you not make an argument without first setting up a straw man to knock down? To thank someone for service to one's country is hardly the same as "absolving" them because "they followed orders" and you know it.

Truth is, because you chose not to reply to the thrust of my argument, you proved my point: that you believe your jingoism trumps others' patriotism.

 

[cfuhrer]

Also, are there not opportunities for those who serve to have their education paid for?

On paper, yes. I know a few national guardsmen who were denied their GI benefits because the rules changed after they signed up but before they started drawing the benefits.

Also, you can enter the military without a skill and receive training that will carry over into civilian life.

One soldier I know was made a tank mechanic. There aren't many tanks in the civilian world and he hasn't found an employer yet that recognizes tank mechanics as "real mechanics". I've also worked in a clinic where high school drop outs start as receptionists and go on to be nurses through the on the job training they receive.

Also, not all civilian workers get to go home to their families at the end of the day. There are all kinds of jobs that involve being out in the field for months at a time, sometimes in extremely rough conditions.

But most of them know what their in for when they take the job. When enlisted personnel sign up all they know for sure is that they are going to basic training. They only get assigned an occupation once they complete basic training and by then its too late to get out.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Do we thank everyone we see on the street, or do we pretend to not see the service member in uniform? How can we make sure that everyone who deserves thanks gets it and those who don't do not?

I could grab myself a set of fatigues out of the surplus store and wear them on the street. Get myself all kinds of undeserved thanks that way!

 

[ControlandDom]

Nice sidestep but it doesn't wash. Talk to me about soldiers and sailors.

Does Commandant Höss work?

Or are we just going to gloss over that little bit of history?

Whatever helps you sleep.

 

[Stella_Omega]

It's hard to take the opinion seriously of someone who handled themselves "ControlandDom."

And so far, it hasn't gotten any easier.

 

[cfuhrer]

I could grab myself a set of fatigues out of the surplus store and wear them on the street. Get myself all kinds of undeserved thanks that way!

And I would still walk up to you and thank you for your service on my behalf. Because I would rather accidentally thank someone who didn't deserve it than intentionally snub someone who did deserve it.

I might also remind you that you are out of uniform for not having your rank, name and battalion patches displayed properly.

 

[cfuhrer]

BTW, CF, I'm curious why it would bother you that I place equal value on the service of civilians and soldiers? I could see if I was saying that soldiers weren't valuable or that they were less valuable than civilians, but why does the idea of equality upset you?

I have no problem with valuing their output equally.

I, personally, on my own, with no expectation of anyone to do the same, place more value on the sacrifice of the military personnel than of a civilian.