Submissives with contradicting wants?

[Caitlynne]

Shall we delve into the land of the submissive with multiple strong wants that contradict each other, or does that make them a false submissive, and by default the partner a false dominant rendering the point moot?

I was reading this thread and found this comment by AA to be something I seem to struggle with all the time. It seemed a good topic to split into a thread of its own.

Multiple strong [intense even] emotions, desires, and wants that contradict each other. I suppose as a sub it all boils down to the conflict between obedience and personal desires. But I wondered that others [both Dominant and submissive] thought about this. When these contradictions result in disobedience or worse?

This isn't about whether the sub is real or not, but I suppose if people want to take that turn the discussion might be interesting. However, I was really more interested in how submissives on Lit process these contradictions, and how Dominants deal with it from the Top.

When it happens to me, I freeze. I mean literally. Words choke in my throat, and I literally freeze almost unable to breathe. The contradiction stuck in my head like a brick wall. Like two completely equal forces forming a mass in my mind and battling for dominance. It scares me in fact, but I recognize it as an event of opposite and equal wants. I wondered if anyone else ever suffered from this?

It hasn't happened a lot in my adult life, but enough to cause me to notice the phenomena and worry, feel guilty, etc.

 

[A Desert Rose]

... Multiple strong [intense even] emotions, desires, and wants that contradict each other. I suppose as a sub it all boils down to the conflict between obedience and personal desires. But I wondered that others [both Dominant and submissive] thought about this. When these contradictions result in disobedience or worse? ...

I think it's an ongoing conflict for most submissives. We'd all like to say that in providing our Doms with what they want, we are then fulfilled ourselves. But that's not life in the real world, is it?

A couple of nights ago, a Dom-lover of mine asked me if I liked this thing or that (I'm not a shock-jock type of poster and feel no need in being graphic, so you can fill in the this or that part) and I told him that this wasn't about what I liked. His response was that he enjoyed it in large part, because I enjoyed it. And that's not to say that he needs me to enjoy everything. He happens to be one of the most sadistic men I've ever known and he loves when I squirm uncomfortably while he does things that he knows push my limits. He gets a vicarious thrill from putting me in situations he knows I might not like.

My point is that I think Dominants can be just as conflicted as submissives. On one hand they want you to enjoy what's happening but on the other they can be very ego centric about having their own needs met. It's the other side of the same coin but in my opinion, it's conflict all the same.

Okay, I've rambled long enough and made no sense... I've got a tee time!

 

[A Desert Rose]

I'm sorry... it appears that I killed your thread, doll.

 

[Caitlynne]

LOL, you're too cute to kill anything.

Although you bring up another good point--conflicting desires in a Dominant.

I know I've experienced the same kind of thing upon occasion. Where a Dominant wanted me to actually enjoy whatever was happening. [I'm not the shock jock type either]. It was in fact part of what he wanted--to see the desire, the need, all of it. Once, even became angry at the sight. It was strange, but a Dominants conflict I can handle, it's my own I can't.

I just wondered about the times when I actually get stuck in the conflict. When I can't move or can't seem to form a coherent thought.

Maybe this is just an exaggerated problem I have, and others don't have such a dramatic reaction between personal desire and obedience.

 

[leeroy jenkins]

Aren't we all at war on some level with ourselves?? I know faith is generally looked down on her but Paul said this. I do what I don't want to do, and I don't do what I want to.

Now maybe this does not quite fit in with your thread thoughts but it does highlight the conflict we as people seem to have to endure at times. Or it does for me at least.

 

[SirFace]

Conflicts? Conundrums? It's really difficult as a beginner.

Lets see.

Shes been really bad and needs punishment

She loves begin punished

I love punishing her

I love that she loves being punished

And Im supposed to train her to be good and obedient?

 

[catalina_francisco]

Conflicts? Conundrums? It's really difficult as a beginner.

Lets see.

Shes been really bad and needs punishment

She loves begin punished

I love punishing her

I love that she loves being punished

And Im supposed to train her to be good and obedient?

LOL, there are some very good threads around here on this. Punishment is not to be enjoyed..firstly because you are not supposed to like displeasing your Dom/me, secondly because if it is punishment, the smart Dom/me finds something which you definately do not find enjoyable in any state of mind.

Catalina

 

[SirFace]

Understood, perhaps I used the term punishment a bit out of context. The only way I know to punish her in the true sense of the word would be just as much punishment for me. I know I have a lot to learn. I shouldnt even post on threads like this.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Understood, perhaps I used the term punishment a bit out of context. The only way I know to punish her in the true sense of the word would be just as much punishment for me. I know I have a lot to learn. I shouldnt even post on threads like this.

We are all learning....when that stops, life has become boring.

Catalina

 

[lne_iii]

We are all learning....when that stops, life has become boring.

Catalina

Well said!

 

[Stegral]

Submissives with contradicting wants

what if they are a "switch" & just don't realize it??

ideally I would have a partner that was dominant for the most part but be willing to relinquish that control on occasion to me..
I rarely "request" anything & prefer to please, every once in a while my needs come out & if they aren't met properly I get a bit pissy... this is when the "switch" would be ideal...

Maybe I am TOTALLY off key here... maybe I am bang on for some...

 

[A Desert Rose]

... The only way I know to punish her in the true sense of the word would be just as much punishment for me. ..

For most Dominants, this is the conundrum that you spoke of. And for most submissives, true punishment (whatever each of us consider as true) is not something we seek.

All this is quite different from being bratty, SAMMY, topping from the bottom, or otherwise teasing for play punishment.

And I would never do any of those things. Or go off topic. Or hijack a thread.

 

[Blushing Bottom]

C,

Life is all about dichotomy and balance. Much of what we do and think as human beings is pure contradiction. How we handle the seas of it is what makes us unique. There is nothing false about palying the devil's advocate with oneself or others for that matter.

d

 

[Caitlynne]

For most Dominants, this is the conundrum that you spoke of. And for most submissives, true punishment (whatever each of us consider as true) is not something we seek.

All this is quite different from being bratty, SAMMY, topping from the bottom, or otherwise teasing for play punishment.

And I would never do any of those things. Or go off topic. Or hijack a thread.

No not you...

I agree, real punishment is actually real punishment. It's not necessarily corporal punishment, and probably shouldn't be if the sub is a masochist as well.

Truth be told, real punishment shouldn't make the dominant happy either. It can send the wrong message to the submissive. "Oh he likes it when I make a mistake or disobey".

The times I've been punished, part of the punishment was all about his disappointment. If it is real disappointment, then he's doing it because correction is needed, not because he wants to.. sort of the old, "This is going to hurt me more than it is going to hurt you, but I'm doing it because you need it."

You just know when it is punishment, it's not "Oh goody I get a flogging". It's all about feeling miserable about whatever you've done to earn the punishment. Every time I see this rationale come up, I wonder if people don't confuse physical pain and punishment. They are not necessarily the same thing at all. Punishment is some means [any means] used to correct behavior. Physical pain can be a reward. You can't beat a sub harder for punishment because she likes pain. Or you can, but eventually her body will just reach a limit, and expire. If you know what I mean.

I've never known a Dominant who was confused on these issues, but I have known Dominants who were not happy at the prospect of delivering the punishment whatever it was.

Now arbitrary sadism at the whim of the dominant is his prerogative. I mean, he doesn't have to have a reason to wallop his slave/sub. He can just do it. So that's not punishment either, that's being Dominant/submissive.

But, [to sort of go back to what I originally meant] I was referring to conflicts that actually cause an inability to function. How they interfere with obedience. Not as a 'topping from the bottom' POV but from a "I've fallen down and I can't get up" kind of place. LOL [well it was the best analogy I could think of..]

But now that I think of it, maybe just some old fashion punishment could snap a sub right out of it. I hate it when it happens because I'm too focused on 'me' and whatever I'm feeling and experiencing, instead of being focused on the external--him or some task. Punishment might cure someone like me of it. Tip the scale, so to speak, to one side, and free a sub from being stuck in the indecision and conflict. Punishment does work wonders in that way.

I'll give it some thought.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Caitlynne, I think you've hit on something. It's deep and will require more brain power than I've mustered lately...

On a related topic that you mentioned,
Now arbitrary sadism at the whim of the dominant is his prerogative. I mean, he doesn't have to have a reason to wallop his slave/sub. He can just do it. So that's not punishment either, that's being Dominant/submissive.

Many times, I've been the whipping post for a bad day, a bad experience, a bad mood. You follow me? One of the Doms I had would be pissed about something unrelated to me and wallop me instead. I was his stress reliever. I knew it and I accepted that as one of my postions in his life.

But that's kinda off topic so... nevermind. lol

 

[Pure]

Angelic A said,

Shall we delve into the land of the submissive with multiple strong wants that contradict each other, or does that make them a false submissive,

i would put it--avoiding the term 'false submissive'-- how do you tell the "submissive with multiple strong wants that contradict" from the "nonsubmissive with multiple strong wants that contradict".

a person does not necessarily fit into a box, to begin with.

suppose someone said, analogously, "I'm gay but with contradictory desires, e.g. for women." one might reply, "well, suppose you're 'bi', but with a contradictory desire to be a lover of men only."

 

[Ebonyfire]

C,

Life is all about dichotomy and balance. Much of what we do and think as human beings is pure contradiction. How we handle the seas of it is what makes us unique. There is nothing false about palying the devil's advocate with oneself or others for that matter.

d

Well said!!

Eb

 

[CharleyH]

LOL, there are some very good threads around here on this. Punishment is not to be enjoyed..firstly because you are not supposed to like displeasing your Dom/me, secondly because if it is punishment, the smart Dom/me finds something which you definately do not find enjoyable in any state of mind.

Catalina

Interesting, and it's really all semantics, but I have always defined and distinguished punishment as something the sub enjoys (ie. corporeal punishment), and penalty I use as a word to describe what a sub would not enjoy, but that I might .

Anyhow, back to the question: I think that subs sometimes think more about their own boundaries and pleasure and forget that Dom/mes have boundaries and pleasures also and when, Caitlynne, you say:

I suppose as a sub it all boils down to the conflict between obedience and personal desires. But I wondered that others [both Dominant and submissive] thought about this. When these contradictions result in disobedience or worse?

I cannot help but think of a time when a sub put a spy cam in my room after I explicitly made it known it was one of my hard boundaries. Dom/mes, just as subs, have soft boundaries that are flexible, and hard one's that are inflexible. When a sub crosses that line and puts their personal desires above a Do/mmes hard boundary, places their want or need above obedience to the relationship, and ultimately above love, respect and trust, then I think that sub needs to learn more about what it is to be a safe, sane and consensual partner. However, more than the BDSM credo, I feel that someone, whether a D or an s, who puts their personal desires over someone's hard boundary needs to learn their own boundaries along with self-respect, self-love and trust before they will ever be in a healthy and rewarding BDSM relationship.

That's my take on your "initial" post, and apologies as I have only read up to Catalina's post at this point.