Submission v. humiliation

[SlowmanNC]

I'm new to this board and to the group. I'd like you to discuss the differences between submision and humiliation. Does one always involve the other? What are the different emotions involved in theses two?

Thanks

 

[catalina_francisco]

Welcome to the board, hope you find it a happy experience. I don't think submission and humiliation necessarily have to go hand in hand, though for some of us both are welcome. I would say submission is definately possible to have without the humiliation, though the other way around is a bit less likely. There are also different forms of humiliation, verbal, physical, psychological, emotional. Some like all forms, others may like only some, and those perhaps with limits. It is tricky if untried, and needs to be explored carefully at first I think if there is any risk of crossing boundaries. For many the verbal humiliation is the one which may be a hard limit, playing on their perception of self etc. Others may find physical more demanding. Is definately an interesting area of play though.

Catalina

 

[angela146]

Let's put it in some context:

Scenario 1: You're going to be punished. You know it and you're willing to accept it. You go to him (or her) and lay accross his lap, willingly and with not reservation. He places you in position and spanks you, but you are allowed the dignity of surrendering to it. You aren't restrained and you don't resist.

The spanking lasts until you have been justly punished.

That is submission without humiliation.

Scenario 2: Same attitude on approach but when you arrive, he pulls you over his lap, despite your willingness to bend. He restrains you despite your lack of resistance. He strips you and spanks you until you beg for mercy. Then he continues, forcing you past your point of tollerance.

That is humiliation despite submission. The difference is a lack of dignity and not allowing you to retain your self control.

 

[ethereal~minx]

I'm new to this board and to the group. I'd like you to discuss the differences between submision and humiliation. Does one always involve the other? What are the different emotions involved in theses two?

Thanks

I'm trying to figure out the motive for the question *laughing* So, for submission there must be humiliation? I'm confused... which is not hard right now *lazy smile

I'm pretty sure I can say I was humiliated this weekend, and pretty bad. It was painful. emotions--um, it's difficult for me to label emotions, I felt intense shame --emotional humiliation
I didn't know there was such a thing but I'm thinking that's what it was...
andwow, that's not good.

*scratchin head...* I still need to know what you mean by 'the difference between submiss--- *no. it couldn't be*

 

[Desdemona]

minx, I know this is a weird concept for a sub, but some people find the whole idea of submitting or wanting to submit to be humiliating. I think that is one possible reason to ask. It's a valid question.

For me, humiliation is not a good thing. It leaves me feeling bad about myself and about the whole experience. So, yes, it is very possible to submit without encorporating humiliation into the relationship. I know other people find it to be quite hot. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[Netzach]

I have some relationships where humiliation is involved and some where it isn't, in fact the most significant one I have with my own boy involves a kibosh on humiliation activities.

Things he likes to do, others might find humiliating, but to him they aren't. If they were we wouldn't do them.

Humiliation to the others I play with is a fetish, they seek out situations that are humiliating because they find them erotic and cathartic...as do I, when humiliating them.

As long as everyone's on the same page, who cares?

 

[ethereal~minx]

thanks Des. I guess there is --I guess I understand where the question could come from. I agree with your feelings though too about humiliation,

it leaves me feeling bad, at least the humiliating situations I've been in. when I first thought about addressing this thread I thought for sure, humiliation would be a LIMIT but then I was thinking because I said it'd be a limit, it needs to be pushed. omg. *not so fast* no, I was thinking, I'm sure there are times when my embarrassment, my humiliation would be his pleasure, and that would push my limits and serve him....so,

I --I don't know, I think I don't get off on this type of humiliation specifically though I'm beginning to wonder


and I love that Netzach~~~~ "As long as everyone's on the same page, who cares?"
I'm going to take this to "the edge" one of these days for more comments : )

 

[Desdemona]

minx, I had to stop and think about it a bit. LOL. After a fairly short time all this stuff began to seem real familiar and comfortable but I can remember a time when I thought it would be humiliating to submit.

The cool thing is, though, that over time I'm finding out how little I really know about this lifestyle. I don't mind that at all. I'd hate to run out of things to learn or to try. And maybe, someday, maybe, I'll be ready to taste some humiliation. I'm not holding my breath though.

 

[lark sparrow]

Just putting a positive vote in for humilation, but it also doesn't make me feel bad about myself within context... erotic and cathartic is a good start. Surrendering to a deeper humility can be particularly potent, and with trust in place it can be exceptionally inspiring. Humiliation is not absolutely necessary, but I for one would sorely miss the lack of it entirely.

 

[ethereal~minx]

Just putting a positive vote in for humilation, but it also doesn't make me feel bad about myself within context... erotic and cathartic is a good start. Surrendering to a deeper humility can be particularly potent, and with trust in place it can be exceptionally inspiring. Humiliation is not absolutely necessary, but I for one would sorely miss the lack of it entirely.

'within context' *nodding* 'surrendering to a deeper humility' ..'with trust in place'
I believe I would feel the same and probably have & just haven't known what to 'call' it when there was trust in place but

coming recently from a place of questioned trust and definite humiliation, my view was colored~ and it was not very pretty

 

[Limbhugger]

Catalina, Lark Sparrow, and Netzach have very much conveyed my feelings on the issue. But as I like to see myself type I'll expand...

Humiliation is very much a turn on for me. Not in the "go in that store naked" type of humiliation. But in the deeply personal type that can exist between understanding, trusting, caring partners. It takes care and intimate knowledge for it not to cross the line into degradation. An all together different emotional affliction than humiliation.

Humiliation brings out my honesty. Taps into the rawness of my emotion that begs to be released. Lays open the sensitive underbelly of the carefully constructed assertive life I lead. Breaks me down to the basics of who and what I am. Leaves me bare at her feet. Frees me.

Of course for me, none of that would be possible or pleasurable if it wasn't for our love, trust, and communication.

As a strong advocate of aftercare I think there is no more compelling place for it than in humiliation. IMHO, it takes a strong person on both sides to take from humiliation all it as to offer and not allow it to be abusive or destructive.

 

[Quint]

I believe there can also be humiliation without submission, as more an expression of masochism. As I think of myself as a submissive and not a bottom, this is theory derived from what I've read, but I do think that in the context of a scene, a person can be erotically humiliated while not accepting that it is their position to accept this sort of treatment as a submissive would. Am I making any sense?

 

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

Humiliation within submission is something that He recognizes as an important tool to keep me right where I need to be. I also recognize ego as something I need to be shaken out of me and rattled. I need to be taken out of self frequently, and humbled. Nothing works like deep humiliation. I need to be yanked off my high horse, right down to a face down position at his feet. Sure, I could do that, literally, but it's the headspace that counts.

I feel bare. Humbled. And ultimately, loved even more by Him, for having gone the places He's taken me.

And yes...it thrills me to the core as well

For this submissive, I can't see it outside of submission. I could never tolerate it from someone that I didn't have a deeply trust-based relationship with.

~anelize

 

[esclave_PP]

Difference between submission and humiliation:

Merriam Webster defines the two:

<b>Submission:</b>

Main Entry: sub·mis·sion
Pronunciation: s&b-'mi-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin submission-, submissio act of lowering, from submittere
1 a : a legal agreement to submit to the decision of arbitrators b : an act of submitting something (as for consideration or inspection); also : something submitted (as a manuscript)
2 : the condition of being submissive , humble, or compliant
3 : an act of submitting to the authority or control of another

<b>Humiliation:</b>

Main Entry: hu·mil·i·ate
Pronunciation: hyü-'mi-lE-"At, yü-
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -at·ed; -at·ing
Etymology: Late Latin humiliatus, past participle of humiliare, from Latin humilis low -- more at HUMBLE
: to reduce to a lower position in one's own eyes or others' eyes : MORTIFY
- hu·mil·i·a·tion /-"mi-lE-'A-sh&n/ noun

That being defined, on the surface there do not seem to be huge differences on the surface but there are smaller facets that would suggest that they are indeed different on some fundamental levels and fork from each other.

To reliquish control is different than being reduced to something. Now some would argue that there is humiliation within submission, sure there is. But it really depends on your mindset and outlook and really depends on the type of D/s M/s relationship I would think.

In my personal case, submiiting my will to Master is a no brainer, it is just my nature, and if he chooses to humilate me, then that is his choice. That's where I see the fork. I see humiliation as just par for the course -- much like binding or foot fetishes or those that loved to get flogged. Some Masters or Mistresses get off on humiliating their slaves/subs -- and that is their right as the dominant.

So to conclude do I see a big difference? Yes in their fundamental definition. Do I think they play a role in each other? Yes I do.

 

[NCShin]

Let's put it in some context:

Scenario 1: You're going to be punished. You know it and you're willing to accept it. You go to him (or her) and lay accross his lap, willingly and with not reservation. He places you in position and spanks you, but you are allowed the dignity of surrendering to it. You aren't restrained and you don't resist.

The spanking lasts until you have been justly punished.

That is submission without humiliation.

Scenario 2: Same attitude on approach but when you arrive, he pulls you over his lap, despite your willingness to bend. He restrains you despite your lack of resistance. He strips you and spanks you until you beg for mercy. Then he continues, forcing you past your point of tollerance.

That is humiliation despite submission. The difference is a lack of dignity and not allowing you to retain your self control.

I think it depends on the submissive in any situation.

The japanese sub that I play with would find it MUCH more humiliating to disrobe herself (i'm assuming in scenario 1 you were bare bottomed since in scenario 2 you were) then she would if I did it.

For her having to make the choice to bend accross my legs is much more difficult for her than if I was to force her over them.

 

[SlowmanNC]

Thanks for all the input. As I said I'm a newbie and was just musing on this question. Your replies have made me think about trust in a D/s relationship. That, I think, is the most important aspect. Trust will take you to the edge.