Submission ... but to whom?

[WillowPuss]

I have had 3D life getting in the way of my posting lately, but Robuck and I have been trying to keep up with the posts. As I have been reading the various posts over the last two or three weeks, a question keeps popping into my mind.

This is going to be a difficult question to phrase so that there can be no possible misunderstanding, so maybe I will ramble a bit (for which I beg your forgiveness in advance) and maybe if you can see my thought process, you will understand the question at the end.

When I first discovered the feelings I have had throughout the majority of my life has a name (submission) I felt as if a weight had been lifted from my soul. Before I discovered this forum I read as much as I could get my hands on to learn more about BDSM and submission.

I feel as if I am a fairly well educated person, and any word I came across that I didn't understand fully, I researched more. Every site I read was written in English - so I didn't have translation problems of a, to me, foreign tongue to contend with.

Without exception, every site I read took great pains to point out that being submissive did not equate with being a doormat or with no being able to think for oneself. Many of the sites (some written by subs, many written by Dom/me's) went as far as stating that the Dom/me valued the submissive more when s/he did have a mind of their own and used it.


Now comes my dilema ... I have always considered myself to be a polite, well mannered person. I am the sort that would 'die' if I thought for one moment a remark I had made (written or verbal) had caused another hurt and/or anger, (As some will know from my PM's), and if I feel that they have, I go to great lengths to correct the matter.

I also thought that people would value me for my mind (they surely wouldn't lust too much after my body

When I first discovered this forum, it seemed that everyone, be they Dom; Domme; Switch or submissive was treated in an equal way and each had an equal voice.


This is what is now so confusing to me.

Why is it that some seem not to be able to accept that a submissive can be a very articulate individual, with views of their own, which they wish to express? Why is their submissiveness questioned when their views are expressed.

In my own relationship, Robuck treasures any input I have on a subject. This doesn't make me less submissive to him. He makes the final descision and that is the end of the matter.
In conversations with other Dom/me's (on the net) they also seem to value what I have to say. They have never yet told me that I am not being submissive by expressing myself.



So, am I right here?
I can have a mind and express a view and still be submissive?

Cos, if the answer to that, to me fundemental question, is no then I will have to say I am not submissive - and yet I truly believe I am.




Any and all thought/comments/observations will be welcome.

 

[Desdemona]

WillowPuss, you are submissive just like I am. You give your submission to One who has earned that gift. He values your submission. That is all that matters.

It really doesn't matter what anybody else thinks.

 

[Shadowsdream]

(So, am I right here?
I can have a mind and express a view and still be submissive? )

you are 100% right plus a bit.

It takes courage, strength and honesty to be a good submissive. Integrity and common sense.

If you didn't have a mind or the courage to use it your submíssion would become a burden of care taking.

Just My opinion but one I feel very strongly about.

 

[WriterDom]

It would be pretty boring if submissives could only curtsey and smile politely while the Dom/mes spoken down to them from their almighty position of superiority.

Someone asked me privately if I thought the atmosphere here is inhospitable to male Doms. I probably wasn't the right person to ask since I was here from the beginning. There are 3 guys here who did have a very rough beginning. I think a little more patience is needed with the new Doms until they get a feel for how the board works.

 

[Desdemona]

Someone asked me privately if I thought the atmosphere here is inhospitable to male Doms. I probably wasn't the right person to ask since I was here from the beginning. There are 3 guys here who did have a very rough beginning. I think a little more patience is needed with the new Doms until they get a feel for how the board works.

I like male Doms. In fact, I think we need more of them posting actively here.

 

[Lancecastor]

1. So, am I right here?
I can have a mind and express a view and still be submissive?


2. Why is it that some seem not to be able to accept that a submissive can be a very articulate individual, with views of their own, which they wish to express? Why is their submissiveness questioned when their views are expressed.

Any and all thought/comments/observations will be welcome.

I've edited your post and trimmed out all but the two points I'd like to comment on in my reply.

1. Of course you are right!
You are right because you are the only person that can decide who you are and what you stand for.
My personal view on labelling/behavior issues is that even if there was a big BDSM Book somewhere that anal-retentives could quote Chapter & Verse and argue the syntax of phrases ad nauseum...it's ultimately Your Call on who you are and what you stand for.
Full stop. Period. As Hecate said so succintly and wisely in another post, the only label I want to wear says "Me".

2. My guess is that this thread will get most of its' traffic from this part of your post.
Here's where I come from: I like articulate people.
When it comes to sexual attraction, intelligence, comprehension and articulation are top of mind with me.
Now, as it happens, there is a feminine quality in some women that also catches my attention and holds it. For the sake of this response I'll call it "submissiveness", but readers need only realize that my s definition includes the ability to express oneself in an articulate fashion.

I think that where some discussion could diverge in this thread will ultimately come down to two subtexts, both largely about how bad men do bad thngs:

2.1 The exaggerated, "Master/Slave" comic-book brand of D/s fantasy roleplay stuff that we see and hear about...the "Send me your pictures now, submissive one!" semi-Gorean type stuff one woman here threaded about recently in reference to a guy from bondage.com being perhaps a recent example.
My take on that stuff is that some who say it might actually believe it, which is kinda wierd to Me, and some are just regular people trying to be D and get a girl.

If your only experience in seeing that flavour of treatment online is Here...count yourself lucky, I say, and keep running with the crowd the two of you are associating with.

2.2 I think you'll agree there's a difference between "articulate & expressive" and "blowhard with a chip on one's shoulder". This is at the nub of the matter for me. I know that I've seen an angry blowhard or two and wondered how submissive that person really is...and commented on it directly and plainly.

It goes both ways, by the way. For example, someone, usually a butch lesbian, will invariably call me a wussie or some other name if I say something sensitive or emotionally revealing.

Which brings us back to the labels....

Lance "Me" Castor

 

[cellis]

Willow dear I have always found you absolutely chaarming.

You are bright, inquisitive, honest and open. These qualities are things that are treasured by most of the R/L dom/dommes I know.

Himself always tells me he wants me to be who I am, because he likes that person.

I have a good mind and I know how to use it. That is something that he treasures. In fact I think that is one of the major attractions for him, or so he has said.

I seriously doubt that Robuck wants you to go around saying "yes Master, anything you say Master" kind of behavior. How utterly boring you would be.

Because you live with him your relationship is a little different from mine.

For me when we walk into the bedroom to play there is an immediate change in both our demeanor. We are into the D/s mode and there is a change. You can feel it in the air. But when it is over it is over until the next time.

Being bright, articulate and intelligent does not keep me from being submissive, nor does it make me less submissive. It simply makes me who I am.

 

[cellis]

Now I want to say just a little bit about this Dom issue...

I like having male Doms around... I like having the female Dommes around...

I like WD although I don't always understand him, but he always makes me think.

I miss Wizard and skitten and hearing about them and what they are doing. But I liked having Wizard around.

I like Rick DeVille.. I like his sarcasm and wit.

I like Rooster...

I like the male Doms we have around here and wish we had more posting here.

I like the differences.

 

[Desdemona]

Cellis, you said it so very well. I like them all.

I also enjoy watching Lance do his thing here. He makes me think and he makes me laugh.

 

[Daddyslilpet]

Willow, I can't tell you how well you just expressed my own thoughts and feelings on this matter. I know I'm submissive, however, only to my Master. To the rest of the world, I'm an independent, strong willed woman. I know what I want, and how to get it. My submission is my gift of myself to my Husband.

From everything I have read, and as most here know I'm a knowledge sponge, I am allowed to give my submission to One and not to all. Therefore, here, in this place of knowledge, not fantasy BDSM, I submit to no one (unless Master ever decided to post that is...lol...that is a joke btw). I have a brain; I can and will think for myself.

I was under the impression that here on this forum, what we are didn't matter. Here we were all equals. Maybe I misunderstood again, it happens. I value everyone's opinions on this board. I respect everyone here no matter their experience level in BDSM or forums. To me it takes all of us to make this place work.

Just MHO.

dixi

 

[spankableBelle]

Here is my one cent worth...

i think it is vitally important that a submissive be able to speak up and voice her thoughts and opinions, otherwise, how is the Dom ever going to know what is going on with her, inside of her? she has a brain, she came equipt with one, she should be allowed to use it, encouraged to use it, cherished and treasured because she uses it and just doesn't accept blindly...

i have heard that something terribly important for a Dom is to do what is for the good of the submissive...how is He to do that, if she is not allowed to speak up? How is He to truly know her needs as a submissive if He doesn't value what comes out of her mouth? How can one respect one that calls Himself Dom if He does not understand her strength inside?

As for the male Doms on this board...there should be more...i haven't spoken to many of them in any serious discussion fashion...but i think it would be very beneficial if there were more here...more approachable Doms, for in my own experience, i have found the female Dommes much more so...and for that, i thank them, for One imparticular...thank You...

belle

 

[WillowPuss]

Thank you all for your replies.

I think the question raised it's ugly head when people here called some submissives into question for expressing thier view.


Lance called a couple to task over their posts and it seemed as if a few others agreed wholeheartedly with him for doing so. In a few threads I have noticed this now. So that got me wondering if perhaps all the male Dom types here expected automatic submissive behaviour from all submissive. (Hmmmmm that wasn't expressed well).


I guess what I am trying to say is ... if the Dom/me's believe submissives are allowed a brain, are allowed to express themselves and are allowed an opinion ... then why to they have to question whether that person is a submissive or not?

I am submissive to Robuck.
I will speak as I like to others - that I do so in the manner I do is purely because that is the way I speak normally. Almost as if I am apologising for being here and for disturbing them.

That is me - my manner of going through life without drawing too much attention on myself (old issues leaving scars that are slow to heal). That other submissives have a strong personality, a stronger voice, certainly a more eloquent voice than I should not cause anyone to call into question their submissiveness to their chosen Dom/me.



(And if that made no sense to anybody, please ask and I will try again - only please don't yell, OK )

 

[Lancecastor]

I can't imagine...

...being in any relationship that would not entail both parties being equals in terms of the direction of the relationship.

From a D/s perspective, it's no good to lead if nobody wants to follow, and there's no point in following someone who doesn't have your best interests at heart.

So, regardless of each of our relative, personal definitions of D and s, it seems to me that a partnership is just that, a partnership...and requires an overall equal articulation, participation and access to the decision-making process.

Lance

 

[Cirrus]

Willow, in answer to your question. Yes, yes, and yes again!! My Dom and I have been in one or two full on arguments, a couple of points on which I just will not budge and have spoken my mind in no uncertain terms. Yet, I am still just as submissive to him, and just as happy being so as I was before that.

What I get from your question is a little bit of doubt that you're still a person, an individual, when you are a submissive. Yes, you are. You still have wants, needs, views, and feelings just like anyone else...sub, dom, switch, or nilla.

The fact that you (and I) are submissive is just a single aspect of our personality...it's not the whole enchilada. We still have a right to use other aspects. You can be outspoken, articulate, silly, sad, angry, or even strong willed and still be a submissive.

 

[cymbidia]

Yesterday was my daughter's 14th birthday. She had a party, one at which the guests spent the night. Consequently, i have a houseful (11) of 13/14/15 year old kids this morning, boys and girls. I told them last night: the boys sleep downstairs. They all nodded and murmured agreement. I got up this morning to take my little boy to his Montessori school and found three boys downstairs. That meant there were two missing boys. I found them in my daughter's room, along with most of the girls. One of them was curled up on the floor. The other one was sleeping in my daughter's bed with her. They were fully dressed and not sleeping in each other's arms or anything - and i *know* there's no sexual pairing up going on within this small group, not yet - but still!

So i rousted all eleven kids (the boys downstairs, the girls sleeping in the guest room, and all the criminals in my daughter's room), motherly indignation and disappointment apparent in my voice and demeanor. Better do some clean up while i'm gone, i told them all, and we'll talk about this when i get back. (These kids were up pretty much all night; i knew it was killing them to have to be awake and facing Mama-wrath at 8:30AM.)

The moral of the story: i'm no submissive in most of the parts of my life. Just like you, i cannot afford to be. Just like you, i have to deal with my LIFE. The world runs over the top of doormat women; i am not a doormat woman.

In like manner, i am not submissive to anyone except those to whom i feel that need. There are a few people here that touch the barest stirrings of my subbie side, and they probably don't even know it. Hecate, for example, and Shadowsdream, are dominants to whom i feel the thin stretching of submission. Were i to meet them in person, i would be more deferential to them then i am to most of the people i meet - because of that "like calling to like" that i feel toward them. They may not feel the same toward me, something that doesn't matter at all. My submission is sometimes a thing that flows from me in an unconscious manner.

However, my intelligence and control and decision-making abilities and the center of my life are not up for grabs by any passing dominant. It's the same with the honest, open, deeply real offering of my full submission in a rational and conscious manner.

It would be a given that within the comfort and security of a good D/s relationship, my voice would be heard. My experiences would be valuable. My needs and wishes would be articulated. The power to do with all that info what he wanted would reside in my dominant's hands, of course, but to discount me entirely would be...well...i wouldn't be in such a relationship in the first place.

As cellis said, "Being bright, articulate and intelligent does not keep me from being submissive, nor does it make me less submissive. It simply makes me who I am." Ditto to that, from me.

 

[tassie]

Willo, words are so easily misconstrued when written, i personally dont think that any of the Dom's here expect submission for you, please dont worry, you're cool babe.

Cym "we'll talk about this when I get home?" jeez, my mum used to pull that one! SO scary! But 14? I lost my virginity 6 months after my 15th birthday. you are right to be vigilant, all you need is one of the girls to get pregnant at your house and the mother to turn up on the door step!

Sorry, off topic over

 

[Lancecastor]

Lance called a couple to task over their posts and it seemed as if a few others agreed wholeheartedly with him for doing so. In a few threads I have noticed this now. So that got me wondering if perhaps all the male Dom types here expected automatic submissive behaviour from all submissive. (Hmmmmm that wasn't expressed well).


I guess what I am trying to say is ... if the Dom/me's believe submissives are allowed a brain, are allowed to express themselves and are allowed an opinion ... then why to they have to question whether that person is a submissive or not?

I don't expect a submissive person to submit to me simply because they are submissive anymore than I expect people to automatically yield to me because I am dominant by nature.

I do however expect all people to understand the difference between discussion/debate and personal attacks/namecalling as well as general Netiquette...and when they don't, they can expect that I will take whatever corrective and/or escalative measures I see fit to employ in response depending on how much the shot or breach of protocol pisses me off at the time.

I enjoy a good debate....the exchange of ideas, the stretching of intellectual limits, in learning new points of view. I find it stimulating. Great fun.

However, and particularly in print, it can be hard to guage when we've hit each others' nerves, soft spots, feelings or articulation capacities.

That's where the Mods ideally should come in and call a standing 8 count...to let all know the debate is getting perhaps too heated....because sometimes, during the thrust and parry, one might not notice the other has been cut. I do think the Mods wait too long sometimes; it's all well and good to say "step back when someone slams you"....the third parties are here in my view to provide that sober second thought.

I know that I mean no harm in my debating....but when cut or hit low, I can and will sometimes hit back instinctively. Or just because I don't like being called names.

On those occasions where I have taken a poke at someone re their statements of submission versus their style/content in argument/discussion, I have either done so ( I thought) in a cheeky, light way when done pre-emptively, and in a plain, harsh way when I considered myself provoked or saw others, particularly newbies, getting mugged by the Welcome Wagon.

However, in those latter instances, my nature/label versus the other's nature/label wasn't considered....I was simply tossing spitballs back after picking them off my face, from where I sit.

And I'd do the same to anyone here that goes below the belt, just as I have received shots south of the waistline when someone perceives me as having been out of line.

My preference is to engage in that sort of churlishness as infrequently as possible. I find it unseemly. But I can certainly rake muck with the snarliest of them if that's the game afoot at any given time.

I hope this helps you understand my views on your direct question as well as my thoughts on the indirect question contained therein.

Thanks;
Lance "Bella Cosie" Castor
Blowhard, Smartass & Jackass LLP, BV

 

[Ebonyfire]

I have had 3D life getting in the way of my posting lately, but Robuck and I have been trying to keep up with the posts. As I have been reading the various posts over the last two or three weeks, a question keeps popping into my mind.

This is going to be a difficult question to phrase so that there can be no possible misunderstanding, so maybe I will ramble a bit (for which I beg your forgiveness in advance) and maybe if you can see my thought process, you will understand the question at the end.

When I first discovered the feelings I have had throughout the majority of my life has a name (submission) I felt as if a weight had been lifted from my soul. Before I discovered this forum I read as much as I could get my hands on to learn more about BDSM and submission.

I feel as if I am a fairly well educated person, and any word I came across that I didn't understand fully, I researched more. Every site I read was written in English - so I didn't have translation problems of a, to me, foreign tongue to contend with.

Without exception, every site I read took great pains to point out that being submissive did not equate with being a doormat or with no being able to think for oneself. Many of the sites (some written by subs, many written by Dom/me's) went as far as stating that the Dom/me valued the submissive more when s/he did have a mind of their own and used it.


Now comes my dilema ... I have always considered myself to be a polite, well mannered person. I am the sort that would 'die' if I thought for one moment a remark I had made (written or verbal) had caused another hurt and/or anger, (As some will know from my PM's), and if I feel that they have, I go to great lengths to correct the matter.

I also thought that people would value me for my mind (they surely wouldn't lust too much after my body

When I first discovered this forum, it seemed that everyone, be they Dom; Domme; Switch or submissive was treated in an equal way and each had an equal voice.


This is what is now so confusing to me.

Why is it that some seem not to be able to accept that a submissive can be a very articulate individual, with views of their own, which they wish to express? Why is their submissiveness questioned when their views are expressed.

In my own relationship, Robuck treasures any input I have on a subject. This doesn't make me less submissive to him. He makes the final descision and that is the end of the matter.
In conversations with other Dom/me's (on the net) they also seem to value what I have to say. They have never yet told me that I am not being submissive by expressing myself.



So, am I right here?
I can have a mind and express a view and still be submissive?

Cos, if the answer to that, to me fundemental question, is no then I will have to say I am not submissive - and yet I truly believe I am.




Any and all thought/comments/observations will be welcome.

I have found that people will say and do anything. But that does not mean you have to believe them or accept what they say.

I don't. You know in your heart what you are. Getting approval from others is like playing russian roulette...you are bound to get shot sooner or later.

Ebony

 

[Desdemona]

I agree with you Ebony

I really don't understand why some of us seem to get our knickers in a knot over whether anyone else on this board sees us as submissive or not. If you believe you're a sub, then you are a sub. If the power exchange is working between you and your partner and you both get your D/s needs met, that is all that matters. The rest of us are mostly anonymous strangers who share common interests and similar experiences. We come here to learn from each other and to have a sense of community, and for lots of other reasons. You don't need a stamp of approval from anybody here to consider yourself a sub or a Dom/me or a switch.

 

[Lancecastor]

Re: Re: Submission ... but to whom?

Getting approval from others is like playing russian roulette...you are bound to get shot sooner or later.

Ebony

What's your royalty rate on that line....may I use it?

Wonderful phrase!
L

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: Re: Submission ... but to whom?

What's your royalty rate on that line....may I use it?

Wonderful phrase!
L

Feel free, I do not know where I got it from!

Eb

 

[MzChrista]

I got the bad news for ya that the problem of Doms buying into their own BS is a part of every BDSM group, real or online, and if you dont think its here, you just aint got your peepers propped open. It always goes on. I been guilty here and there and it sure as shit been ruling the roost in some threads lately. A sub who takes a stand is attacked for fightin, and if she steps down she gets told she is passive aggressive.
And youd think people would say fuck that noise, but naw , most of yas will look the other way cause you want shit lovy dovy.
Whatever.
Aint no dickwavers tryin to push nobody around on this board, nonono.
Hahaha.
Im out for awhile till my disgust level slides down.

 

[Desdemona]

If I thought there was anything worth fighting about, I'd wade right in. Frankly, its not about wanting things all lovey dovy, I'm just friggin bored with the argument. Agree to disagree and move on already. You don't have to like everybody who posts here anyway. JMO of course.

 

[Ebonyfire]

My 5 cents worth

"Lance called a couple to task over their posts and it seemed as if a few others agreed wholeheartedly with him for doing so. In a few threads I have noticed this now. So that got me wondering if perhaps all the male Dom types here expected automatic submissive behaviour from all submissive. (Hmmmmm that wasn't expressed well). "


Being one of the few here who did agree with Lance, I think I have to jump in here.

First of all, I agreed with him and I am not a male dom. This has nothing to do with being a male or being sub or not.

I believe we were trying to get these points across:

1. That the only opinions that seem to matter around here are "the hallowed few".

2. Newbies are jumped on when they do not articulate themselves to the standards of the “hallowed few”.

3. There is a growing inhospitable climate for male Doms. No wonder they do not bother to post.

4. Some newbies and those who I call the "unanointed" have to walk a thin line before they have to defend every word they post. I thought the purpose of this is to be a discussion, any exchange of ideas, not a debate.

5. There is a pack mentality toward perceived insults. When one of the “anointed few” feels insulted, everyone jumps to that person’s aid as if they are incapable of taking care of themselves.

6. When the same things happens to one of the “unanointed” people just hurl a few parting shots and say it serves them right.

None of this has anything to do with D/s and/or BDSM. Supposedly that is why we are all here. Not to do character assassination or ego surgery on each other.


Ebony

 

[Ebonyfire]

I got the bad news for ya that the problem of Doms buying into their own BS is a part of every BDSM group, real or online, and if you dont think its here, you just aint got your peepers propped open. It always goes on. I been guilty here and there and it sure as shit been ruling the roost in some threads lately. A sub who takes a stand is attacked for fightin, and if she steps down she gets told she is passive aggressive.
And youd think people would say fuck that noise, but naw , most of yas will look the other way cause you want shit lovy dovy.
Whatever.
Aint no dickwavers tryin to push nobody around on this board, nonono.
Hahaha.
Im out for awhile till my disgust level slides down.

This ain't about dicks MzC. And you ain't half as disgusted as I am.

Eb