Subjective Voting Criteria

[Ray Dario]

Okay okay, I admit it, I'm addicted to votes

Today my story "Austrailia Day" was posted. I checked early this morning and went "WOW They love me, they really really love me!" It had a score of 4.72 with 32 votes. Then I checked back at noon and had a score of 4.57 with 37 votes. I just checked it again about an hour ago (See I'm a junkie) 4.50 with 40 votes.

I did the math. No ones. It was just posted today so no "Top List" divot either.

I have recieved two feedback emails already, both were very positive but there was something more there. The first feedback was from a woman, she gave her email address and said she loved my story, she said it was "one of the best stories I have read recently" and that she gave it a five rating.

The second was from a guy (gender assumed from email content) no email address. He said it was the "Best" story he had read in a long time. So good in fact that he gave it a four vote!

So now I am frustrated because how your story scores seems to me to be more blind luck on who is voting than quality of story. Oh yes quality does play a big role in how well it scores but up above the 4.25 range seems to be blind luck.

I mean the second guy really liked my work, but his 4 vote hurt the hell out of my score.

I wonder if any of the super bright people running and visiting this site have any suggestions on how to get a little more consistancy in the minds of the voters. Or am I just blowing smoke here and being way too anal about the voting.

Okay I know I'm way too anal about the voting and usually I would be ecstatic about a 4.5 score on a story, but seeing it so very high and then watching it drop was heart wrenching. Then the email came and I got angry and then I got over being angry and was just sad, like a little girl who's hamster was just sucked up by the vacume cleaner.

Oops, I'm babbling now. I'll shut up.

Ray

 

[CreamyLady]

Ray, do yourself a favor. Stop looking at your votes.

It's true; you can do it cold turkey. Just stop. Forget the damned things exist. Wait for email, instead.

Study zen. Garden. Clean out your closets. Go play basketball. Do anything and everything except check your votes, and you'll feel better for it.

 

[cymbidia]

Voters vote according to their own predetermined and wildly different sets of parameters. Their parameters might have nothing at all to do with yours. Thier view of what makes a 5 story, for instance, or a 3 story, might have nothing to do with yours.

Voters vote on stories for reasons that may have nothing to do with the quality of your writing. Are you a masochist (and not in the fun way)? WHY are you checking so often, if not?


You gotta get a grip, Ray. Treat this scores-checking obsession you're developing as an addiction.

Tonight give yourself specific times of the day when you may go check your scores. Five time, Ray, in a 24 hour period. Five times should be enough for anyone, shouldn't it?

After a few days, cut it down by one time.

Continue.

Over the next few days, get it down to once a day.
Then once every other day.

Get a grip on this Ray.
You're a good writer.
You know.
We know it.

The scores are meaningless as an indicator of whether your're a good writer or not.
And you know it.

Love,
cym

 

[Ray Dario]

The scores are meaningless as an indicator of whether your're a good writer or not.
And you know it.

CL, cym,

You are right and I do know it. The only time I look at scores anymore is when I post a new story. Just the super high score caught me off guard and sucked me back in. Like a crack junkie, scoring a great rock after six months dry. Poof, I was trapped.

Back on the wagon I go ... after one last peek at the scores

Ray

 

[Weird Harold]

The second was from a guy (gender assumed from email content) no email address. He said it was the "Best" story he had read in a long time. So good in fact that he gave it a four vote!

This is why I consider any score above a three a good score, and any score above four an excellent score.

I think the second voter is the more common variety. Very few stories get a five, because they're waiting for that "perfect story" to come along. "Gotta have room for those masterpieces, eh."

I'd like to see Laurel and Manu go to a one to ten scale for voting. The "nothing is perfect" voters then vote eights and nines which don't hurt the scores as badly as fours do. (even though they are both 80% scores and affect the score equally percentage wise, in absolute terms it doesn't doesn't seem to drop a score as drastically.)

 

[Ray Dario]

Re: Re: Subjective Voting Criteria

This is why I consider any score above a three a good score, and any score above four an excellent score.

I think the second voter is the more common variety. Very few stories get a five, because they're waiting for that "perfect story" to come along. "Gotta have room for those masterpieces, eh."

Unfortunately to get onto the first page of the "Top" lists, at least in my fav category of "Loving Wives" you got to get a 4.51 or better. To make the top ten or so you need a 4.53 and the score I am trying to beat, for my own ego alone, is 4.57.

I had almost given up hope and that is what hurts the worst. To have hope renewed and then dashed so quickly.

And cym, I have resisted peeking at the score for over an hour now. Can you hear me panting yet?

Ray

 

[Laurel]

Ray, you rock! Your post had me chuckling for a good 5 minutes. I think it's commendable that you want the readers to dig your story - and they DO. You're very talented, and anything above a 4.0 is very, very good.

Some folks say you shouldn't care about the voting scores. I disagree - I think you SHOULD care, but you should also be aware of exactly what they mean and be careful not to give the scores more importance than they deserve. It's a VERY clumsy form of feedback. It's there for readers who don't have the time or the ability to write the author with criticisms. It allows them to give you a quick assessment of their opinion of the story. But as you've already noted, it doesn't tell you WHY.

You hit on the crux of the voting issue: how do you tell a bunch of people who are reading erotica to relax and unwind how they should or shouldn't vote? A Literotica story is read by 10,000+ people in its first 24 hours on the site. That same story will be lucky to receive 20 votes in that time. When readers are already somewhat reluctant to give any sort of feedback as it is, should we start throwing out votes that we feel are made for the wrong reasons? What IS a legitimate vote? If some guy gives your story a 2 when most have given you a 4 - and he really believes that your story deserves a 2, rightly or wrongly - is his vote any more or less legitimate than the other votes?

Whose opinions matter? Whose don't? How do you tell?

How do you determine voter intent?

Many folks come here frustrated because their story had a 4.8 with 10 votes, then a day later it had a 4.3 with 50 votes. They feel that their story was "attacked". However, this is a common cycle. The first few people who bother to vote are usually people who have a very positive reaction to the story. Once the story garners 10 votes, it makes our top lists. Many users surf the top lists by category in search of good stories. These users are generally a little more critical than the new story viewers - they're looking for top stories, durn it, so these had better be good.

As more people vote, it becomes harder and harder to maintain a high average. If you look at the top lists, you'll see that this is true - it is the rare story that rides in the top 20 with over 500 votes.

This situation is not unique to Literotica - you'll find the same discussions happening on all sorts of sites around the web. The issue is compounded by the fact that we're voting on art, which is highly subjective. Some of my favorite stories never rise above a 3.5 rating. Does that mean they are inferior to a story with a 4.5 rating? Not necessarily, not in my eyes - but others disagree, as shown in the votes.

Who's "right" - them or me? I don't know. I'll tell you this, though - my favorite books rarely make the New York Times best seller list, and my favorite music isn't always on the Billboard Top 10.

Some people will give you a 5 because you wrote a sister panty fetish story and they've wanted to read a sister panty fetish story for weeks now. Others will give you a 4 even though - as in your case - they loved the story, but they wanted to leave breathing room in case they happen to stumble upon War & Peace in our archives someday.

So long as you have a system that asks for feedback from the voter, you're going to get feedback from the voter. Whether that feedback is relevant or useful...that's another story altogether. So take the voting for what it's worth. The public is a hard lot to figure out. If it were easy, then record labels wouldn't pour millions of dollars into albums that flop. Movie companies wouldn't waste time producing and promoting films that no one goes to see. I heard that Town & Country won't even recover its costs - I read it's supposed to be one of the biggest flops in movie history...yet a friend of mine liked it very much. The critics savaged Pearl Harbor, but it's doing very well at the box office. Who knows?

Vincent Van Gogh died in poverty. Britney Spears sells millions of records. If you stay true to yourself - if YOU are happy with your work, if those whose opinions you trust judge it to be good - then that's what counts. Everything else is just icing.

 

[Sonia_de_Beaumanoir]

Okay okay, I admit it, I'm addicted to votes

Today my story "Austrailia Day" was posted. I checked early this morning and went "WOW They love me, they really really love me!" It had a score of 4.72 with 32 votes. Then I checked back at noon and had a score of 4.57 with 37 votes. I just checked it again about an hour ago (See I'm a junkie) 4.50 with 40 votes.

I did the math. No ones. It was just posted today so no "Top List" divot either.

Ray

Ray, the math is unclear as well. If you multiply the averages by the votes to get the total points, you see that:

4.72 * 32 = 151
4.57 * 37 = 169
4.50 * 40 = 180

So the first increment you got 5 votes totalling 18 points, which could have been 5-4-4-4-1 or 4-4-4-4-2 or 5-5-5-2-1 or 5-4-4-3-2 or 5-5-3-3-2 or 5-4-3-3-3 etc..

The second increment was 11 points in 3 votes, which could equally be 5-5-1, 5-4-2, 4-4-3, or 5-3-3. Impossible to say which.

 

[KillerMuffin]

I've managed to hop off the vote wagon for a while. I have my pet theory about why I got so many high scores then boom it drops. Cause it just happens that way.

Gawd grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
And the wisdom not to wring the motherfucker's neck if I ever catch his sorry ass.

I find this works for all occasions from voting here to road rage to the welfare bitch looking down her nose at me at Wallyhell.

 

[Ray Dario]

Re: Re: Subjective Voting Criteria

Ray, the math is unclear as well. If you multiply the averages by the votes to get the total points, you see that:

4.72 * 32 = 151
4.57 * 37 = 169
4.50 * 40 = 180

So the first increment you got 5 votes totalling 18 points, which could have been 5-4-4-4-1 or 4-4-4-4-2 or 5-5-5-2-1 or 5-4-4-3-2 or 5-5-3-3-2 or 5-4-3-3-3 etc..

The second increment was 11 points in 3 votes, which could equally be 5-5-1, 5-4-2, 4-4-3, or 5-3-3. Impossible to say which.

Sonia, you are, of course, right. I found combinations that did not include a 1 on all the permutations and chose to think the best.

I shall now turn in my nifty "pessimistic cynics" handy dandy decoder ring.

Ray

 

[Mr_Neb]

Ok. That's it. I don't know about votes, the state of mind of voters, whatever! What I DO know is that there now needs to be a 12-step program for the voting addicted. I think Ray and Sonia need to be the first to stand up and say, "Hi. My name is <insert "Ray" or "Sonia" here> and I have a problem....."

 

[Ray Dario]

Ok. That's it. I don't know about votes, the state of mind of voters, whatever! What I DO know is that there now needs to be a 12-step program for the voting addicted. I think Ray and Sonia need to be the first to stand up and say, "Hi. My name is <insert "Ray" or "Sonia" here> and I have a problem....."

Um, uh, Okay. (tap tap tap) Hi. My name is Ray and I have a problem. I'm addicted to vote watching. I feel like I need to look at my voting scores on Literotica constantly. But with the help of my friends, I am recovering. I have not looked at my votes for (looking at watch) over a minute now.

 

[cymbidia]

I think Ray deserves a way cool Literotica pen (kinda like mine ~smug smile~) for THAT sort of wholehearted effort!

 

[Laurel]

LOL! You have to have a nose a Gnufi to get a Lit pen!

 

[KillerMuffin]

*clapping enthusiastically* Welcome Ray! We here at Vote Watchers Anonymous feel your pain. Even us so-called on the wagon VWAs still have to watch ourselves. I'm Muffin, one of the first members of VWA.

You belong if you say yes to one or more of these:

I log on just to check my votes.
I refresh my account page to see if my votes changed in the last few minutes.
I check my votes at least 5 times daily.
I have the beginnings of a story in my mind based on vote totals.
I get angry when my scores drop more than .01 in a day.
I know within 4 hours that my scores dropped more the .01.
I know how to figure out if I received a 1 vote.
I get irritated enough to post about it if my scores drop by .20.
It's obviously the Phantom 1 Voter who is making my scores drop.

 

[kneeonsigh]

VWA has another member

by your criteria, Muffin, I, too have found my support group.
A relative newbie, I posted my first story this week, and then, sort of blundered into the vote count feature by mistake (keyword here is mistake!)
Ever since that time, I have just about wonr out the seat belt on the emotional roller coaster watching as the votes take me to the euporia of the 4.6 plus, leading the catagory, to the bargain basement's back room as my total (and self worth) plummeted by over .3 in less than a few hours.

A sardonic laugh as I followed this thread, but there is comfort in shared pain........ right? please tell me there is....... Ray, you out there?

 

[Sonia_de_Beaumanoir]

Ok. That's it. I don't know about votes, the state of mind of voters, whatever! What I DO know is that there now needs to be a 12-step program for the voting addicted. I think Ray and Sonia need to be the first to stand up and say, "Hi. My name is <insert "Ray" or "Sonia" here> and I have a problem....."

Actually I have given up checking my votes as I haven't submitted anything in a month, and haven't gotten any new votes in weeks.

Note however that I will be on vacation for the next 4 weeks and will be logging in frequently from internet cafes. Anyone who wants a load of 5's please email me with your check enclosed.

 

[Whispersecret]

<grumbles> I still check my mailbox for my promised Lit pen.

 

[Ray Dario]

Re: VWA has another member

A sardonic laugh as I followed this thread, but there is comfort in shared pain........ right? please tell me there is....... Ray, you out there?

Actually Knee THAT is what this thread is all about. Blowing off a little steam and stroking up some sympathy when my feelings got hurt. Everyone has been so kind to me and so supportive. It makes me feel good to be a part of this community. (tear leaking from left eye)

However, my new story has now rebounded and looking good, I'm happy to report. Maybe voters saw this thread and took pity on me.

Tomorrow is another day and maybe it'll take a tumble, but for one day I was #1 in the "Loving Wives" Category and as the song goes, "I feel fine."

Ray

 

[JUDO]

Guilty!

KM-

Guilty! On ALL counts. In the past, I was completely obsessed by the votes my stories received.

But...

After the first bummer of watching a story get steamrolled (however it occurs) I took solace in the writing.

I am here in a vain attempt to become a better writer, not to get great votes. And, so far, it seems to be working.

This time, my bad scores hurt less. I am not expecting my new story to achieve anything. The only difficult part left is getting the story read after the first few weeks.

And the only way I have found to do that is to keep writing new stuff.

So...

Now, I have beat outlines for about a dozen stories I have yet to write or start (And no, cym, they are not all Lesbian! Neener, neener, neener!).

My intent is to flood the place with the best writing I can muster and each time to try and outdo myself.

Just keep creating and writing, Ray, and fuck the rest.

- Judo

[My name is JUDO and I am a voting addict.]

 

[wild_jay]

Ray, I share your frustration with the voting system. I check regularly and although none of my stories have received a significant number or votes (or feedback) it's all I have to go on in terms of reader satisfaction. And I have noticed the phenomena of having a story hit a top list then suddenly, a day or two later, receive scores significantly below what the story had received to that point. Maybe it is more critical readership that leads to this...I just don't know.

Laurel's comment about 10,000 reads to approx. 20 votes brings out an interesting point. I don't know about the other authors but if it were possible, I would really like to know how many times my story gets read (or at least clicked on). I have had E-mails from readers who I know have not voted even though they read the story and enjoyed it.

 

[Tx Tall Tales]

As a new guy to Literotica (in terms of writing, not reading) I'm guilty of the vote counting as well. I was pleasantly shocked to find an 'H' beside my first submission, and to see it on the the 'top list'. But now I'm like an addict. I want to check constantly if I'm working my way up or down the list. I check the email a dozen times, hoping for some little note validating my work.

And I'm almost afraid to submit anything, without reading it two dozen times. More. I sweat before hitting the submit button, worried that I might have a misspelling, or a wrong word that the spelling checker didn't catch.

I want to go cold turkey, and ignore the votes, but I'm weak ... I'm so weak.

Damn! What have I gotten myself into?

 

[Ray Dario]

Wild Jay and Tex,

Welcome to VPA (Vote Peekers Anonymous)!

Remember that addiction can be treated but not cured. You have taken the first step, but now you must take responsability for your actions. From now on you will measure you recovery by how long you have resisted peeking at your votes.

Um excuse me, I have to go. You see it's time for my five minute peek

Ray

 

[cymbidia]

"Five minute peek"?

No, no, no, no, no Ray! That was supposed to be five peeks a DAY!

Addict!

 

[Debbie]

I too stand as a Voterholic

Hi my name is Debbiexxx. I too am a voteaholic. I am guilty of getting up early just to check my votes, neglecting my family, slacking off at work ( I work from home)all in the name of checking the scores on a story of mine. Thankfully i found this thread just in the nick of time!I have wasted so much time in my short sad life in a desperate bid to check so often on the votes for my stories. Sometimes getting a high (hanging my head in shame) as the votes are good, only to find my hopes dashed to the ground at the end of the day if the score has plummeted. But now I know I have company I promise to ease off and relax about it all. Thanks for starting this thread Ray!