Sub or Slave

[Pebbles2play]

i am new to this forum and fairly new to the lifstyle also. i have been in a relationship with my master for a year seing him on and off. it was only recently that we decided for a true open and honest commitment to eachother. Master has been a part of the D's lifestyle for some time now and giving my heart body and soul to him has made me the best person i could have ever become. pain has become part of my life and submission to him is my everything. i learn and i keep learning but i do have a question i'd like to get feed back on.

What is the difference between a slave and a Submissive?
Are you a slave or a sub?

not sure how to ask that question show please correct me if i'm wrong. i'd like to get some feedback on this and see what type of different views are out there. Thanks and I hope to be involved with many of the threads here, finally a group of people i can relate with



~smile~

 

[MissTaken]

Welcome to the forum, pebbles.



I am not entirely sure where I would fit into the sub versus slave remark. I think it depends on how we each perceive the two roles.

 

[D's mariposa]

It depends on how you percieve the two roles, pebbles. I don't consider myself a slave at all. To me, a slave has no independent personality. A slave is nothing without their Master. A slave has no value outside of a relationship with their Master (or Mistress. ) I know this is not how many percieve slavery, but that is my emotional/gut response. I consider myself a submissive. I rely on D for so much and I am a better person because of it. He gives me guidance and support and I would be lost without him. But if, God forbid, anything should happen to D or our relationship, I would survive. I could stand alone by myself, as much as I would hate it.

On the other hand.. (there's always another hand.. ) Some people consider me a slave. I don't see it that way. But as long as D and I are cool with the dimensions of our relationship and we know who we are life is good.

 

[SexyChele]

First. welcome to the forum! Glad that you found this place and I hope the time you spend here will be a good learning place as well as a good place to develop a sense of community.

Second, while I've done a lot of investigating and reading into the lifestyle, and at one time thought I was a complete submissive, I've since determined that I have to travel a different course. I'm fine with that, and thankfully so is everybody here! (Great group we have here, btw!)

Third, you might get a mixed response as to what makes a slave or a sub. I can only give you my opinion, and that is simply based on how I interpret the words and would put them into practice. Hopefully, others will jump in with their own conclusions and opinions.

For me, a submissive is a person who willingly and freely submits to the will of a Dom/me. The submissive and the Dominant normally have a series of conversations in which limits are defined and set, with the understanding that some limits can be "pushed" and others cannot. The submissive retains the right to approach the Dominant to re-negotiate those limits and boundaries when or if necessary. The submissive retains the ultimate right over their body and mind.

A slave is a person who gives up all rights to their body. They have no limits as they are owned and are the property of their Master. There is no freedom to re-negotiate. The only right a slave has is to place him/herself under the ownership of their Master/Mistress.

Granted, these views are extreme to most. Even here. You will find submissives here who refer to themselves as slaves. That's cool with me and I respect that. It basically comes down to titles, and when dealing with a title, it comes down to what a person feels comfortable with. Some like to think of themselves as slaves. To others, the term slave is a total insult. Who's right? Both are, as these things are usually mired in personal opinion and feeling.

For me, being a slave is impossible as it is against the laws of the United States. (as well as most other countries) The concept of being a slave can be real, but the actuality of it would seem, to me, to be impossible.

But then, this is all just my opinion!

 

[Pebbles2play]

Thanks, for me you've actually said it best way possible. i've noticed with many people i talk with they use either slave or sub and i myself am submissive to one only. I do not and will not consider myself slave although some would consider being submissive a slave. I find it to be quite interesting and hope more feedback on this subject continues.

~smile~

 

[psiberzerker]

As usual, it all comes down to personal interpretation. There are no standards, and I would rebel against them if their where. I don't deal with "Slaves", because I don't like the word, or the type. I guess that submissive is a fairly broad term, covering anyone that takes the passive role. All slaves are subs, but not all subs are slaves.

 

[sub princess]

Hi Pebbles.... there are several good threads here that can help you.


https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=82695

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=118198

i myself am a slave. i am independent, i am strong, and i know exactly who i am, and i am quite happy with what i see. i have to disagree with D's mariposa, though she is entitled to her opinions. slaves have value outside their relationships with their Master, they have careers, hobbies, and many self satisfying activities.

But all this is irrelevant, it should not matter to you what anyone else thinks or wants to label you as... i really hate labels! Being a slave or a submissive is what you feel in your heart, it is simply the matter in which you choose to live and express yourself in your own relationship.

There seems to be some kind of stigma associated with the word "slave", like it is somehow a degrading or lesser term, but in my opinion that could not be further from the truth. Yes, i have run into my fair share of 'doormats' who call themselves slaves, by the same token several of these 'doormats' represent themselves as submissives. A 'doormat' is a person with low self esteem, one that has no value in themselves, and allows other to take full advantage of them in any way..... but this is not a slave, this is a person that questions or doubts their own self worth.

Moondusksub started a great thread entitled "what being a slave means to me", she talks of her feelings, and her beliefs in the difference's between slaves and submissives. i mirror her thoughts in many ways, just as many others did in their responses.

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=159119

i am a slave, plain and simple, to me that respresents that i have given myself entirely to my Master. He has my heart, soul, mind and body.... and though He may 'own' me, He does not 'possess' me. He guides and supports me, He values my opinions, and helps me help myself to become a better person all around. For example, He knows how much i love to draw and paint, but it was something that i had given up long ago. When i first told Him of my passion for art, He made note of it, and later made it a regular discipline for me to practice my art. Did He do this to serve Him? No, He did this to enrich me, to make me happy... in turn making me a better slave to Him. The point that i am getting at is that He would not go to such great lengths if i were worthless and undeseving to be happy. He sees me as one of His most precious possessions, i am loved, respected and cared for (but not taken care of- there is a difference).

Opinions are like assholes- everybody's got one. Just stay true to yourself, and follow what is in your heart... this will never steer you wrong.

 

[sub princess]

For me, a submissive is a person who willingly and freely submits to the will of a Dom/me. The submissive and the Dominant normally have a series of conversations in which limits are defined and set, with the understanding that some limits can be "pushed" and others cannot. The submissive retains the right to approach the Dominant to re-negotiate those limits and boundaries when or if necessary. The submissive retains the ultimate right over their body and mind.

A slave is a person who gives up all rights to their body. They have no limits as they are owned and are the property of their Master. There is no freedom to re-negotiate. The only right a slave has is to place him/herself under the ownership of their Master/Mistress.

Granted, these views are extreme to most. Even here. You will find submissives here who refer to themselves as slaves. That's cool with me and I respect that. It basically comes down to titles, and when dealing with a title, it comes down to what a person feels comfortable with. Some like to think of themselves as slaves. To others, the term slave is a total insult. Who's right? Both are, as these things are usually mired in personal opinion and feeling.

For me, being a slave is impossible as it is against the laws of the United States. (as well as most other countries) The concept of being a slave can be real, but the actuality of it would seem, to me, to be impossible.

But then, this is all just my opinion!

Since i seem to be the only one respresenting the slaves at this time i would like to comment on SC's post. Though SC has said that these are her views on the diffeerence's between subs and slaves, i have heard others share in her thoughts.

First off, as i said, i am a slave (though title is not important as i mentioned before), but i willingly gave myself to my Master, He did not 'take' anything from me, He accepted the 'gift' that i gave Him in submitting myself to Him. i have the right at any time to discuss anything that bothers or upsets me in regard to O/our relationship. He would never ask or demand that i do anything that would hurt me physically or emotionally. And yes, i do have limits.

As to laws, yes it is against the law to actually "own" someone, but we are not talking legality here, we are talking relationships, feelings and emotions. Am i owned by Him on paper? No, of course not, but i am owned by Him in His and my hearts, and that is simply all that matters to me. A piece of paper making something "legal" means nothing.... in fact, how many states in this country still have oral sex between non married individuals on the books as a crime? 4 states total, but i bet that doesn't stop everyone from doing it.. lol

As SC said, that was her opinion, this is mine... i do not discount or discredit anyone else's opinion-- this topic will have many, many differing opinions, but again i say, if one follows what it is their heart, than that is all that should matter.

Thank you for listening....

 

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

Hi Pebbles,

Welcome to our Community, and welcome to one of the most widely debated questions in our world as well *smile*, IMHO. Everyone has a different opinion, on this one, i think, so gather them all together, think on it some, and just find what works for YOU and discard the rest. Ultimately, that's all that matters, right?

I'd like to point you to our BDSM Library, which is loaded with threads on all sorts of topics, including many on this very one. Thanks, sub princess for pulling some of them up, the way I'm your local neighborhood librarian, and if you have any suggestions or ideas for the library, feel free to PM me, or drop a note in the library suggestion thread found in the first post in the Library.

As to the topic....i consider myself a submissive, not a slave. Like Chele, i believe a slave gives up all rights to renegotiation, her body, and as such has no limits. I do have limits, and will not give up the right to a safeword. On the other hand, I respect the point of view of sub princess and others here who consider themselves slaves and live a very fulfilling life as such. Different strokes There have been times in my journey when slavery HAS appealed to me for various reasons, and will probably continue to do so. I am just not in the space where it is an option for me, so submissive is the label and life that i wear with pride.

~anelize

 

[Richard49]

For me, a submissive is a person who willingly and freely submits to the will of a Dom/me. The submissive and the Dominant normally have a series of conversations in which limits are defined and set, with the understanding that some limits can be "pushed" and others cannot. The submissive retains the right to approach the Dominant to re-negotiate those limits and boundaries when or if necessary. The submissive retains the ultimate right over their body and mind.

A slave is a person who gives up all rights to their body. They have no limits as they are owned and are the property of their Master. There is no freedom to re-negotiate. The only right a slave has is to place him/herself under the ownership of their Master/Mistress.

I agree

let's not forget bottoms

They are IMHO submissve in bedroom only

 

[FungiUg]

[...] What is the difference between a slave and a Submissive?

Hmmm... I think it's one of those things that varies depending on who you talk to.

For me, a "slave" is someone who is owned. Don't get me started on that, because I hate the whole idea of ownership. If you're into that, check out the "Gorean" sub-culture.

A submissive is someone who enjoys submitting to another person, usually sexually. There's no concept of "ownership" involved. Slaves would normally be submissive as well, although if you add non-consensual to the mix, they need not be.

 

[lark sparrow]

The Impossibility of slaves

Good point s.p. Simply because something is illegal or not recognized by the law doesn't make it impossible by any means -generally existing long before and after any law against it. There are obvious differences in archiac, illegal slavery and consensual, BDSM slavery.

Context and degrees of separation.

A tree is a tree is a tree. Well, yeah, unless it's paper, firewood, furniture, flooring, a pencil, a door, a desk... then it's a material called wood - derived directly and exclusively from trees.

A dog is a dog is a dog. Well, yeah, but some are pets, some are used for food, others are men...

A slave is a slave is a slave... well, yeah, except in BDSM.

 

[Croctden]

Slave shmave, give me a good sub anyday.

The first sub I had who I did not intro to the life had a great line, "Subs slave only on the weekend." By her standards a slave was someone who submitted 24/4. I don't know that I buy, that but I thought I could pass it along.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

I feel that I 'own' my sub...but it is because she chooses it, and reaffirms it daily. She is 'mine', but it isn't slavery, because she always has the choice.

 

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

I ran across this while wandering through the "stacks" in the Library.

I thought it worth posting.

Originally posted by James Blandings

My take on it is that slave is a word that describes a person in relation to another, while submissive describes an inherent quality in the person themselves. A submissive who does not have a dominant is still a submissive, but there is no such thing as an unowned slave.

For those interested in the whole thread, it came from
"Oh sure..I'm into BDSM. What's BDSM?" begun by JazzManJim on 02-23-2002.

~anelize

 

[lark sparrow]

I ran across this while wandering through the "stacks" in the Library.

Originally posted by James Blandings

My take on it is that slave is a word that describes a person in relation to another, while submissive describes an inherent quality in the person themselves. A submissive who does not have a dominant is still a submissive, but there is no such thing as an unowned slave.

I agree, anelize, and brought it up in moondusk's slave thread as well. It seems one of the defining characteristics to me, though I have run across people who considered themselves slaves whether they were owned or not (slave as an orientation). I have always considered it a status (like being married or single). although all partnered submissives will definitely not be slaves. Though one may be oriented towards the kind of commitment a slave makes, my take is that being a slave needs the actualization of being owned by another.

Otherwise, what are you a slave to? Your own desires? It's like saying you're married when you are single, simply because you want to be married and feel you were born to be married, in this light. I am always a lesbian, but I am not always a S.O., girlfriend, lover, etc. - not without being in a lesbian relationship. I am always a submissive, but I am not a slave without being owned and attaining the status in relation to the Dominant I surrender to. I can respect those who consider it strictly an orientation which they carry partnered or not, but it doesn't fit with the very definition of the word slave to my way of thinking.

For Pebbles... have you spoken to your Master to learn his views? It's important to develop your own ideas about sub vs slave, but your Master's definitions and desires may play a large part.

This is yet another point to my belief that slavery is a status. While unpartnered you set your own standards in your behavior and philosophy as a slave recognizing your need, but this can never be confused with someone else setting your standards and accepting another's will as your own. Two very different things. It's all pretty subjective and personal as the law does not recognize and define this form of slavery... kind of like gay and lesbian couples who consider themselves married, but have no legal standing.

 

[FungiUg]

Slave to the rhythm! That's me!

 

[SirTain]

Always a great question for there is no definitive answer.

Pebbles, for what it's worth I have been training three girls (Hello, My butterfly) to become my slaves for the past few months. However, prior to O/our meeting, none of them had a desire to be a "slave", until they learned my definition of the word (as well as my definition of "Master"). In the coming months, two of them will receive my collar, and the third, while currently re-orienting herself, may one day too because she has now discovered what "slave" can mean. The three of them are very happy with what they have discovered.

I spent many years reading individual accounts of Master/slave relationships and talking to Doms and subs and Masters and slaves and Tops and bottoms and wanna-bes and players, et al, to arrive at what the words "Master" and "slave" mean to me. In turn, I am very fortunate to have found three girls who share an appreciation and devotion to those definitions.

For me, there is a very deep intimacy in the exchange of the words "Master" and "slave", much deeper for instance than with submissive friends and past playmates of mine. I allow only my girls to address me as "Master" (in fact, My one girl who is no longer in formal training now refers to me as "Sir" again), and they choose to address only me as "Master". In this regard, I agree with lark sparrow: speak to your Master because what these words mean to the two of you is certainly what matters most.

Finally, I'll make one clear distinction. My girls are very independent, their choice is imperative to me a it voices their dignity and integrity, what I consider the attributes of an extraordinary submissive. However, as their Master, on any shared topic, my decision is the final one. As a loving Master, this does not lend to conflict (though sometimes some disappointment) because their best interest is my desire, responsibility and privilege.

 

[sub princess]

Always a great question for there is no definitive answer.

Pebbles, for what it's worth I have been training three girls (Hello, My butterfly) to become My slaves for the past few months. However, prior to O/our meeting, none of them had a desire to be a "slave", until they learned My definition of the word (as well as My definition of "Master"). In the coming months, two of them will receive My collar, and the third, while currently re-orienting herself, may one day too because she has now discovered what "slave" can mean. The three of them are very happy with what they have discovered.

I spent many years reading individual accounts of Master/slave relationships and talking to Doms and subs and Masters and slaves and Tops and bottoms and wanna-bes and players, et al, to arrive at what the words "Master" and "slave" mean to Me. In turn, I am very fortunate to have found three girls who share an appreciation and devotion to those definitions.

For Me, there is a very deep intimacy in the exchange of the words "Master" and "slave", much deeper for instance than with submissive friends and past playmates of Mine. I allow only My girls to address Me as "Master" (in fact, My one girl who is no longer in formal training now refers to Me as "Sir" again), and they choose to address only Me as "Master". In this regard, I agree with lark sparrow: speak to your Master because what these words mean to the two of you is certainly what matters most.

Finally, I'll make one clear distinction. My girls are very independent, their choice is imperative to Me a it voices their dignity and integrity, what I consider the attributes of an extraordinary submissive. However, as their Master, on any shared topic, My decision is the final one. As a loving Master, this does not lend to conflict (though sometimes some disappointment) because their best interest is My desire, responsibility and privilege.

Beautifully put Master, Thank You...


As Master said, in the beginning i had no desire to become a 'slave'.. because i (sadly) believed E/everyone else's meaning of the word. i did not see myself as the worthless, co-dependent, mindless doormat that i was told a 'slave' was. All i knew was that i wanted to give myself to One, i wanted to be His, i wanted Him to own me, mind, body, heart and soul, and i wanted to make His pleasure mine.... but not just in the bedroom, dungeon, forrest, etc.. i knew that i wanted to live my life devoted to Him throughout each and everyday, not just at "playtime." Does this mean that i wanted Him to consume me? No, of course not, that is just plain not healthy. i wanted S/someone that would want my devotion, my love, my surrender, everything that i had to give.... but at the same time encouraged me to improve myself for myself, knowing that my personal happiness and growth would only enable me to serve Him better. That is exactly what i found when i met Master, and when He told me He wanted to train 'slaves', and then gave me His beautiful definition of what that meant to Him, i knew i had found my place.

i can honestly say that i have never been happier, never felt more free (irony), and never knew anything to feel this right before. That is what is important to me, and that is what makes me proud to say that i am His slave.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I can only reply for myself, though I do not agree with FungiUg's semi-vague connection between Gorean sub culture and the concept of being owned. Gorean is a lifestyle choice that does not have a monopoly on slavery or ownership.

That being said, I am a slave 24/7 and see it as being an extension of submissive. I am owned by Master, consensually, in that it was understood before our comitment was made final. It was what we wanted and what works for us. Being owned does not mean though that I have to be a doormat.....if I was he would never have even considered me.

It does mean I am to have no limits except his limits, and that he owns me in every sense of the word. I have a mind which my Master enjoys for it's quickness, depth, and intellect. I have gifts which Master supports and encourages and takes pride in as part of his possession. I have lived a difficult life and survived on my own against all odds, my experience sometimes being seen as an advantage by Master, at the very least a strength he admires and celebrates. It is my strength which enables me to live the life of a slave and meet the challenges he gives me.

By not having limits, I am committed to pleasing Master in anyway he demands. I am not always successful, but he guides and nurtures me, and most importantly realises I am human. The important thing is I try and continue to try to please. After all, as he points out when I am disappointed in myself, life would be boring if I was a doormat who could do instantly all he asked of me. It is a process of growth for both of us, but his word is final.

As his slave I am encouraged to discuss my feelings and dufficulties, and if I ever have reservations about anything he asks of me, he wants me to explain to him why. He is not insecure so does not need to fear finding sometimes he has overlooked something I may highlight to him in a respectful way. Overall our relationship is guided by mutual love and respect for each other above all others. I would have it no other way.

 

[FungiUg]

I can only reply for myself, though I do not agree with FungiUg's semi-vague connection between Gorean sub culture and the concept of being owned. Gorean is a lifestyle choice that does not have a monopoly on slavery or ownership.

I quite agree. My personal objection is to the concept of "ownership". That's not a criticism of slavery in BDSM (or Gor), it's just a personal "I have moral issues with that." I know it works for some people, and I'm quite happy for them.

No, I never claimed that slavery and ownership are purely Gorean concepts, only that the Gor thing emphasises that, which is why I (again, personally) dislike it.

In fact, I'm quite well aware that voluntary slavery and ownership predate Gor. By several millenia, I'm sure!

 

[catalina_francisco]

Thanks, for me you've actually said it best way possible. i've noticed with many people i talk with they use either slave or sub and i myself am submissive to one only. I do not and will not consider myself slave although some would consider being submissive a slave. I find it to be quite interesting and hope more feedback on this subject continues.

~smile~

In my reality. the condensed version at least, a slave incorporates the elements of submissive into their role, but a submissive does not incorporate the elements of slavery into theirs.

Catalina

 

[Master1stgirl]

sub or slave

from experience:

I would rather be called my Master's slave then his sub. We were raised into the Master Slave Lifestyle.

I am proud to be called such too.
Before our Master passed on, he taught us that many things have two views.
Yours and the other persons.

the only thing that I find most disturbing is the attitude of outsiders when they discover your truth. Since when is it a sin to enjoy being taken care of by a loving Master? Don't wifes use a biblical statement and submit to thier husbands?

 

[Desdemona]

Before I belonged to my Master, I was a submissive. I am now His posession, His slave. I accepted His collar freely with full knowledge of what it meant for us. I have defined rights and freedoms within our relationship, but I know my place. His word is final on all issues, however, He listens to my opinion. I agree with s.p., it really doesn't matter what label you use. How you define your relationship is between you and your Dominant.

 

[Ms_Lilith]

For me, a submissive is a person who willingly and freely submits to the will of a Dom/me. The submissive and the Dominant normally have a series of conversations in which limits are defined and set, with the understanding that some limits can be "pushed" and others cannot. The submissive retains the right to approach the Dominant to re-negotiate those limits and boundaries when or if necessary. The submissive retains the ultimate right over their body and mind.

I couldn't have explained that better myself.

I am a switch who leans more to the submissive role. I enjoy being a submissive, and am currently in submission to One who is kind and gentle and very understanding of my lifestyle outside of Him.

I will not even address slavery because I am not a slave, and I do not understand the dynamics of what it would be to be one.