Sub or brat?

[hooterbif]

I have an update to my rope thread and thought that I would start a new thread.

As my girl took a shower, I set up the room for a major scene. She came out and said, "Oh, dear, what have we here?" in a slightly sarcastic tone, meaning that she was into it, but not so much that she couldn't speak if you know what I mean.

Anyway, as I began slowly tying her up, she asked, "Oh, I searched through your email and saw that you were planning to go to a rope learning event at the local kink society. Are you going? With whom? Do you need to be vetted?"

So, in my mind, I'm like, "What The Fuck." Why in the world do we have to have this discussion at this moment. Then, I went to kiss her, and she was just closed mouth. The whole thing seemed moronic to me.

Anyway, I just stopped there. Later, she said that she had planned that all along so that I would just keep going and not listen to her.

Given that she had no idea I was setting up a scene until she walked out of the bathroom, I can't figure out how she had that all planned....

(By the way, she has mental/chemical anxiety disorders that cause her to lie all the time).

I asked her much later if she really was sure that she wanted to say that it was some plan of hers to resist me and create conflict, and she said that it was definitely her plan but that she can act more interested next time.

Does any of this make sense to you? It doesn't to me!

(ps. I did speak with people from the local kink society. Wow, I am so happy I did! They are very nice and love sharing.)

 

[SpunThings]

You responded in the right way. If you don't want to play her games, don't engage in them. Now she knows attitude or stoniness won't get her kinky fun times.

 

[cookiecat]

Totally agree with SpunThings.

I'll add that you seem like a really really good guy. You make my heart all melty. You're planning out this stuff, you're taking classes, you met new community friends.

Yay for you!

 

[hooterbif]

Totally agree with SpunThings.

I'll add that you seem like a really really good guy. You make my heart all melty. You're planning out this stuff, you're taking classes, you met new community friends.

Yay for you!

Thank you (a little *blushing* right now)

It has been a lot of fun for me to explore all this stuff (and meet you folks). There have been a few sore feelings.

Just after I "stopped" tying her up, she said, "If you are not going to be a true dom, then just stop pretending." Ouch.

 

[Miles Long]

Thank you (a little *blushing* right now)

It has been a lot of fun for me to explore all this stuff (and meet you folks). There have been a few sore feelings.

Just after I "stopped" tying her up, she said, "If you are not going to be a true dom, then just stop pretending." Ouch.

Dude, this chick sounds like all kinds of trouble.

You did the right thing by stopping. Doms get to tap out of a scene whenever they want to just like subs do, and it's kinda shitty for her to try to incorporate mind-fuckery into a scene if you guys haven't talked about it before hand. Or at the very least if it's not shitty to do that, any reasonable person who attempted it and then saw you back out would say "hey that's my bad for trying something we didn't discuss."

And that whole thing about "if you're not going to be a true dom, then just stop pretending" is probably the most laughable thing she could say. That is some textbook emotional manipulation bullshit right there, and screams that she is not ready to be in a mature relationship. It shows a stunning lack of respect, emotional maturity, and knowledge of BDSM.

I won't even get into the whole looking through your email thing. Remind me again why you're in a relationship with this woman?

 

[SpunThings]

Thank you (a little *blushing* right now)

It has been a lot of fun for me to explore all this stuff (and meet you folks). There have been a few sore feelings.

Just after I "stopped" tying her up, she said, "If you are not going to be a true dom, then just stop pretending." Ouch.

You can respond with, "If you're not going to be a well behaved sub, we won't play."

There's no such thing as a true dom. Some people don't like that bratty behavior. Some doms are fine with it. However, even doms who are fine with it set a line for what's acceptable and what is going too far. It sounds like you two need to talk about the bratty behavior, and what it means, and how far is too far for you. That way there are no mixed signals.

 

[hooterbif]

You can respond with, "If you're not going to be a well behaved sub, we won't play."

There's no such thing as a true dom. Some people don't like that bratty behavior. Some doms are fine with it. However, even doms who are fine with it set a line for what's acceptable and what is going too far. It sounds like you two need to talk about the bratty behavior, and what it means, and how far is too far for you. That way there are no mixed signals.

Maybe I would not mind bratty behavior, "Daddy, I don't feel like licking your lollipop today." That I can deal with, but look at what she said. She completely caught me off guard by saying that she was reading my email. Then, she brought up a complex topic - me getting rope training without her because she thinks that she should not have to witness me learning.

I don't believe that she did this as simple brat-play. I think that she is pissed off that I am going to be participating in something kink-related without her (despite her not wanting to go).

Yes, she is in therapy and has been her whole life. Yes, she is on multiple medications.

 

[cookiecat]

Well - it's established that you love this crazy chick, flaws and all, right? So I suppose we can't keep questioning that.

Although sometimes, just sometimes, when 15 people are pointing out red flags... it's worth a listen.

I'm unclear if a talk about expectations would work with her???

You should NOT be hurt by what she says.... you've been clear with us she's all about lying, manipulation, etc. Ok, you can let it hurt a little but - as Spun and Miles said - give it right back. You think I'm a bad dom? That isn't the greatest sub behavior and do exactly what you did... walk away. Keep reinforcing she won't get away with that narcissistic bullshit.

You've got your hands full!

 

[Miles Long]

If you want to indulge her a little bit, ask her to write down a definition of what a "true dom" is. Hell, you can both write down definitions of what a true dom and a true sub are. Then compare definitions. I'm curious to see how they are alike and how they are different.

 

[hooterbif]

Well - it's established that you love this crazy chick, flaws and all, right? So I suppose we can't keep questioning that.

Although sometimes, just sometimes, when 15 people are pointing out red flags... it's worth a listen.

Hey, I hear you and appreciate the warnings. She was 110% committed to me and helped me in a very difficult time in my life. There are other reasons...

I'm unclear if a talk about expectations would work with her???

You should NOT be hurt by what she says.... you've been clear with us she's all about lying, manipulation, etc. Ok, you can let it hurt a little but - as Spun and Miles said - give it right back. You think I'm a bad dom? That isn't the greatest sub behavior and do exactly what you did... walk away. Keep reinforcing she won't get away with that narcissistic bullshit.

You've got your hands full!

We have discussed this event a few times (including today!).

Today, she says that she is "done" trying because I don't accept her "truth."

She says that her "truth" is that she wants me to control her and be my sub, that she feels anxiety about our relationship and lets that seep into our sex, and finally that now she will be my sub. I basically told her that she isn't just magically going to be "my sub" because she says so when it hasn't really worked smoothly since we started exploring D/S over the past few months. There are some underlying issues that need to be addressed. She says that she doesn't want to hear it.

If you recall, this started around the time when she had a D/S experience with another girl around that time. She says that her truth is that the experience she had really wasn't D/S (despite saying this: "What happened between XXX and I, was only* possible bc I Do Not have a connection emotionally or romantically with her. We fed off of our own individual unique, probably even subconscious on many levels, need to satisfy a release of self-loathing by way of taking on the role that allows that scenario.")

I think that she is very capable of entering subspace, even in a few minutes, with the right person at the right time. I believe that I am not that person right now (because of some underlying issues).

For now, I am satisfied with simply walking away from any scene gone wrong....

 

[hooterbif]

If you want to indulge her a little bit, ask her to write down a definition of what a "true dom" is. Hell, you can both write down definitions of what a true dom and a true sub are. Then compare definitions. I'm curious to see how they are alike and how they are different.

This isn't exactly what you asked for, but here is something she wrote today:

I do* want to completely submit to you in sexually. I want to relinquish control of my self to you. I do need breaking in-- I think that's clear. Trust is the biggest part of this. I trust you in the bedroom physically-- but I have a big fear of being hurt emotionally by you outside of the bedroom.... This stays in the back of my mind in the bedroom too.
I need to feel safe secure and loved- especially in daily life with you. I want you to own me. I want to feel like I am your prize possession. Sometimes you treat me like you own me but would rather someone else--like I'm just the Guinea pig for someone better. As if, you're just putting up with me bc 'I'll do for now'...
I often get mixed messages from you... And I react defensively, or act out. I don't want to do that anymore... I want to trust you completely. With that I believe I will fully submit in every way. That's what I desire.

I realize I am a brat currently, but I think that can be fixed.

 

[cookiecat]

This isn't exactly what you asked for, but here is something she wrote today:

I do* want to completely submit to you in sexually. I want to relinquish control of my self to you. I do need breaking in-- I think that's clear. Trust is the biggest part of this. I trust you in the bedroom physically-- but I have a big fear of being hurt emotionally by you outside of the bedroom.... This stays in the back of my mind in the bedroom too.
I need to feel safe secure and loved- especially in daily life with you. I want you to own me. I want to feel like I am your prize possession. Sometimes you treat me like you own me but would rather someone else--like I'm just the Guinea pig for someone better. As if, you're just putting up with me bc 'I'll do for now'...
I often get mixed messages from you... And I react defensively, or act out. I don't want to do that anymore... I want to trust you completely. With that I believe I will fully submit in every way. That's what I desire.

I realize I am a brat currently, but I think that can be fixed.

I feel like that's a breakthrough.

Did you mention way before that she wanted you to text her a zillion times a day? Plan out her day for her, what to wear, what to do, etc?

That highlighted part is another red flag. I can't discount her feelings - I only know your side of the story. But this romantic notion of ownership is sometimes a way to keep all your attention on her. It's way way too needy. And exhausting for you.

It does sound like you guys have moved forward in this little journey (I hate that word "journey" but I couldn't think of anything else) since your last post a while back.

If she says she's getting mixed messages - that's the thing I think you need to get a handle on.

 

[hooterbif]

If she says she's getting mixed messages - that's the thing I think you need to get a handle on.

Yep.

I was out of town for a few days this weekend. She had a few near-meltdowns when I didn't text "I love you" every few hours. She said that she was feeling very insecure with me being away, like there was something shady about it.

During this same time, her best friend mentioned that I requested to friend her on Facebook and my girlfriend said that was shady. I ended up telling her that I wanted to set up a surprise 30th birthday party for her and wanted to collaborate with her best friend (whose contact information I do not have).

So, the point is that she is very insecure, and I cannot ignore that.

 

[Miles Long]

I feel like that's a breakthrough.

Did you mention way before that she wanted you to text her a zillion times a day? Plan out her day for her, what to wear, what to do, etc?

That highlighted part is another red flag. I can't discount her feelings - I only know your side of the story. But this romantic notion of ownership is sometimes a way to keep all your attention on her. It's way way too needy. And exhausting for you.

It does sound like you guys have moved forward in this little journey (I hate that word "journey" but I couldn't think of anything else) since your last post a while back.

If she says she's getting mixed messages - that's the thing I think you need to get a handle on.

I agree with cookiecat. The mixed messages thing needs some examples. It's possible she's interpreting things you're saying and doing far differently than you're intending them.

I also have concerns about her trust thing. By saying she will submit to you only when she trusts you completely, that allows her to keep moving the goalpost on you. What does she think it will take for her to trust you completely? How many hoops do you have to jump through to prove yourself to her?

 

[Miles Long]

Yep.

I was out of town for a few days this weekend. She had a few near-meltdowns when I didn't text "I love you" every few hours. She said that she was feeling very insecure with me being away, like there was something shady about it.

During this same time, her best friend mentioned that I requested to friend her on Facebook and my girlfriend said that was shady. I ended up telling her that I wanted to set up a surprise 30th birthday party for her and wanted to collaborate with her best friend (whose contact information I do not have).

So, the point is that she is very insecure, and I cannot ignore that.

The bolded sentence makes me think she needs to be in therapy and work on her insecurity before she presents herself as ready for a relationship of any kind, BDSM or otherwise.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/3o7ZeEZUzRjyvWuuIg/200.gif

 

[hooterbif]

How many hoops do you have to jump through to prove yourself to her?

Oh, you put your finger on it. She is not being sincere here. I have seen her do this many times, saying things like "Oh, when XYZ is TRULY TRUE, then ABC will happen," where XYZ is some mythical ideal that cannot be achieved. It goes along with her Disney impressions of the world. "Oh, when I am FULLY HAPPY with our relationship, then UNICORNS and RAINBOWS will be EVERYWHERE!"

 

[hooterbif]

The bolded sentence makes me think she needs to be in therapy and work on her insecurity before she presents herself as ready for a relationship of any kind, BDSM or otherwise.

A while back, she asked me to recommend topics for her regular therapy.

I did so.

After a while, she said that resented me telling her that she needed therapy on so many issues. See how that works?

 

[Miles Long]

I think she has to work on some of these issues with a therapist. Unless you're a qualified therapist I don't think there's a lot you can do except support her in going.

 

[SpunThings]

It sounds like she has this romantic notion of D/s that will magically fix her issues. As if they're not her issues, but something outside of her that's the problem.

A lot of positive reinforcement for the behavior you want might help. Slowly. Over time. Probably a lot of time.

You've got to make it clear you can't change her, you can only support. She's got to put the work in.

 

[Miles Long]

It sounds like she has this romantic notion of D/s that will magically fix her issues. As if they're not her issues, but something outside of her that's the problem.

A lot of positive reinforcement for the behavior you want might help. Slowly. Over time. Probably a lot of time.

You've got to make it clear you can't change her, you can only support. She's got to put the work in.

^^^^ This this this!

 

[hooterbif]

I mentioned to her that it might be a problem of sexual attraction. I say this because I know that she had mentioned that the girl she was with was amazingly hot, and I know that a little bit of "hotness" goes a long way in making her submissive!

Her response was:

You clearly don't understand me at all, and as far as attraction level goes---physically I am overwhelmed by how sexy and attractive I think you are. But, emotionally and mentally you are inconsistent and difficult. I'll say for the millionth time-- affection and warmth, are just not who you are.... That is something I find unattractive. There have been few short times when I've felt these things from you, and those are directly connected to my level of pleasing you and desiring you. You are inconsistent. It's always a huge let down for me when you go back to being distant and cold. That doesn't mean that you aren't sexy, it just means I feel bad vibes from you and don't want to get shutdown. So I clam up.

By the way, when she is being bratty, I just walk away. She calls that being "distant and cold."

 

[SpunThings]

I mentioned to her that it might be a problem of sexual attraction. I say this because I know that she had mentioned that the girl she was with was amazingly hot, and I know that a little bit of "hotness" goes a long way in making her submissive!

Her response was:

You clearly don't understand me at all, and as far as attraction level goes---physically I am overwhelmed by how sexy and attractive I think you are. But, emotionally and mentally you are inconsistent and difficult. I'll say for the millionth time-- affection and warmth, are just not who you are.... That is something I find unattractive. There have been few short times when I've felt these things from you, and those are directly connected to my level of pleasing you and desiring you. You are inconsistent. It's always a huge let down for me when you go back to being distant and cold. That doesn't mean that you aren't sexy, it just means I feel bad vibes from you and don't want to get shutdown. So I clam up.

By the way, when she is being bratty, I just walk away. She calls that being "distant and cold."

Do you tell her why you are walking away? It sounds like she senses it, hasn't quite made the connection to changing her behavior, and resents you for it.

It's also possible your love languages are too different.

 

[hooterbif]

Do you tell her why you are walking away? It sounds like she senses it, hasn't quite made the connection to changing her behavior, and resents you for it.

It's also possible your love languages are too different.

Yes, I tell her. I think that she just wants to be coddled all the time. That is, when she is bratty, she wants me to either overpower her or tell her how much I love her. The third option of me walking away (like a healthy normal adult) is not one that she wants.

 

[SpunThings]

Yes, I tell her. I think that she just wants to be coddled all the time. That is, when she is bratty, she wants me to either overpower her or tell her how much I love her. The third option of me walking away (like a healthy normal adult) is not one that she wants.

So is there a better way that you would prefer for her to communicate that she wants to be coddled?

 

[cookiecat]

Yep.

I was out of town for a few days this weekend. She had a few near-meltdowns when I didn't text "I love you" every few hours. She said that she was feeling very insecure with me being away, like there was something shady about it.

During this same time, her best friend mentioned that I requested to friend her on Facebook and my girlfriend said that was shady. I ended up telling her that I wanted to set up a surprise 30th birthday party for her and wanted to collaborate with her best friend (whose contact information I do not have).

So, the point is that she is very insecure, and I cannot ignore that.

I know you're trying to make this work. We're trying to help you!

But, ummm.... I dunno.

She's giving you mixed messages.

A person cannot, CANNOT give another person that much attention. It's weird and narcissistic and plays in to her insecurities.

Until she gets the insecure part worked out, this ownership thing will not work out. I say this from experience.

Baby steps if you really do want this D/s thing. But ownership? No. She wants you to own her so she can own you and your time. Someone who has a life outside her isn't cold and unfeeling. It's just doing other stuff.