Story length and ratings

[LaRascasse]

Dampy and I have had a minor disagreement on the issue, so I'd like to throw it open here.

A personal observation I've made is that, outside of LW, a story which is 4+ pages long almost always has a red H tagged to it. This is not to say that longer stories are inherently superior to 1-2 page pieces, but the length does factor into the score in some way. I have read plenty of shorts which deserved the H for all intents and purposes, but didn't make it to 4.50.

So basically the "formula" for a guaranteed red H is - write any non-infidelity story spanning 4 pages (11250+ words), make sure it doesn't have egregious errors in spelling, grammar or plot and you're done.

From the point of view of the reader, I can think of 2 possible reasons why the length would be a factor.

1. Longer stories instantly have more credibility. If I scroll down to the bottom of page 1 and see there are 6 pages, I immediately know that a lot of time and effort has been invested in typing out all those words.

2. The readers who actually finish a long story are sure to like it, as the others would have bailed out sometime before. Why bother working your way through 6 pages if you don't like what's going on on page 2? Fortunately, the voting mechanism is only on the last page.

What's your take?

 

[damppanties]

I wasn't aware there was disagreement.

 

[slyc_willie]

I would tentatively agree that longer stories have an advantage, mainly for your #2 reason. When readers get down to the bottom of the page and see that the story goes on for at least two or three more pages, they're either going to stick it out because they like the story thus far, or back-click because they don't. Those who invest the time to finish the story are more likely to vote high.

There's a discrepancy in that logic, though, one that I've encountered first-hand. And that is in the case of a series. My most recent series run eight chapters, each of which with three plus Lit pages. Put them all together, and you have a story running more than twenty-five Lit pages. If, to continue the logic that readers who like what they have seen will continue reading and vote high, then all eight chapters of that story should have that wonderful little red H next to them. But they don't. Only half of them do.

So I don't think it necessarily comes down to the length of the story, but how it's presented. If I were to put all twenty-five Lit pages of that story into one submission, I figure it would have an H next to it, granted by, oh, all ten or fifteen votes it had earned. The overall readership would be much less than if I kept it chopped up into chapters.

I guess it comes down to a question of, do you want your work read, or do you just want the H?

 

[sr71plt]

I agree with the second. But longer stories only have credibility with those with little knowledge of writing. Professional writers value focus and precision over throwing a bunch of rambling words at a file. But here on Literotica, yeah, verbosity seems to be a plus.

 

[damppanties]

I agree with the second. But longer stories only have credibility with those with little knowledge of writing. Professional writers value focus and precision over throwing a bunch of rambling words at a file. But here on Literotica, yeah, verbosity seems to be a plus.

Now, come on. Longer stories might not necessarily mean verbosity. It might mean a story over a longer time or with more intricacy than shorter 'shorts.' In that sense, longer pieces can be focused and precise when it comes to the writing too.

 

[sr71plt]

Now, come on. Longer stories might not necessarily mean verbosity. It might mean a story over a longer time or with more intricacy than shorter 'shorts.' In that sense, longer pieces can be focused and precise when it comes to the writing too.

They can, yes. Certainly, there's no "everything is . . ." meant to be implied by what I've posted. Nor do I hold that anyone else has to agree with me (although anyone interested in moving into writing short stories in the mainstream might give this serious consideration. Much of what is favored at Literotica does not form good writing habits for competing in the mainstream). In the hands of most I've read on Literotica, focus and precision aren't given any sort of nod. There's a "longer is better no matter what you do to get there," mind-set here, I've found. It could be tied to the concept raised on this thread of "to get an H," get those who aren't in love with it to drop out somewhere along the looooooong route. And getting the H is so prevalent here that most of what I read is pabulum, taking no risks whatsoever and running deep in the "what I like" trenches.

You can, of course, believe otherwise. And I constantly hold that folks should be permitted to read and write what they like here, so this also isn't meant to tell anyone what they "have to do" or even "should do." They can have any priorities they want, as far as I'm concerned.

I do hold to the traditional definition of a short story, though. A story that can be read at one sitting. In this fast-pace world, one sitting gets shorter and shorter. The mainstream recognizes that and has mostly scaled back 20,000 words as the upper limit of a publishable short story to 5,000 words. Competition stories are more like nothing above 3,500 words, and there are probably more flash fiction (mostly 1,200 words and below) contests than those for longer stories. So, you pretty much have to do a Hemingway these days--make every word count and involve rather than spoon feed your reader--to be taken seriously as a short story writer.

In the real world.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Elmore Leonards western short stories are excellent and brief. John O'Hara's best short stories are brief. Jack Londons stories run forever, but his stories are about perseverance and ordeals.

 

[littlecordelera]

I'm a newbie, so I don't know what the secret is, but so far I can't make heads or tails out of the voting - period. And I'm not talking about Loving Wives. I now understand the voting in there. Any other category, however, and the voting seems to be as unpredictable as a jumping bean.

Nevertheless, amongst you established guys, there seems to be some validity to the length theory. I think that is because your following expects you to produce a minimal amount of work, and that work is measured in length, simply because for your established readers, your style is no longer a new experience. It has become a given.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I'm a newbie, so I don't know what the secret is, but so far I can't make heads or tails out of the voting - period. And I'm not talking about Loving Wives. I now understand the voting in there. Any other category, however, and the voting seems to be as unpredictable as a jumping bean.

Nevertheless, amongst you established guys, there seems to be some validity to the length theory. I think that is because your following expects you to produce a minimal amount of work, and that work is measured in length, simply because for your established readers, your style is no longer a new experience. It has become a given.

Lotsa theories floating around about scoring. But for all intents and purposes the scoring follows the scoring on American Idol, where Reuben collects all the votes and Clay sells all the CDs, and Reuben vanishes with his trophy.

Stories, like music, or sleep, need to be as long as they need to be. But LIT caters to the petulant, and they get to trash stories for any and every reason. And over time the stories suffer from regimentation that tries to appease the sulks.

 

[49greg]

Yup

Lotsa theories floating around about scoring. But for all intents and purposes the scoring follows the scoring on American Idol, where Reuben collects all the votes and Clay sells all the CDs, and Reuben vanishes with his trophy.

Stories, like music, or sleep, need to be as long as they need to be. But LIT caters to the petulant, and they get to trash stories for any and every reason. And over time the stories suffer from regimentation that tries to appease the sulks.

I'm beginning to think so.

 

[49greg]

I read as much, or more, than I write.

And there are times when I want a quick one or two pager. Other times I welcome a longer story, either in all pages at one go, or in multiple chapters. It would be nice if the number of pages was listed at the top of the story.

 

[sr71plt]

And there are times when I want a quick one or two pager. Other times I welcome a longer story, either in all pages at one go, or in multiple chapters. It would be nice if the number of pages was listed at the top of the story.

It would just be nice that the listing at the bottom of the page was honest. Anything over three Lit. pages doesn't register as longer than that until/unless you doing some clicking to slowly get to those longer page counts.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I'm beginning to think so.

Its human nature to appease the petulant sulks if they can cause you grief. So their wish list becomes the standard for all, simply because writers want to avoid their wrath and punative scoring.

 

[littlecordelera]

But for all intents and purposes the scoring follows the scoring on American Idol, where Reuben collects all the votes and Clay sells all the CDs, and Reuben vanishes with his trophy.

You're right, and you've reminded me of something I already knew: Talent is immaterial.

 

[lovecraft68]

They can, yes. Certainly, there's no "everything is . . ." meant to be implied by what I've posted. Nor do I hold that anyone else has to agree with me (although anyone interested in moving into writing short stories in the mainstream might give this serious consideration. Much of what is favored at Literotica does not form good writing habits for competing in the mainstream). In the hands of most I've read on Literotica, focus and precision aren't given any sort of nod. There's a "longer is better no matter what you do to get there," mind-set here, I've found. It could be tied to the concept raised on this thread of "to get an H," get those who aren't in love with it to drop out somewhere along the looooooong route. And getting the H is so prevalent here that most of what I read is pabulum, taking no risks whatsoever and running deep in the "what I like" trenches.

You can, of course, believe otherwise. And I constantly hold that folks should be permitted to read and write what they like here, so this also isn't meant to tell anyone what they "have to do" or even "should do." They can have any priorities they want, as far as I'm concerned.

I do hold to the traditional definition of a short story, though. A story that can be read at one sitting. In this fast-pace world, one sitting gets shorter and shorter. The mainstream recognizes that and has mostly scaled back 20,000 words as the upper limit of a publishable short story to 5,000 words. Competition stories are more like nothing above 3,500 words, and there are probably more flash fiction (mostly 1,200 words and below) contests than those for longer stories. So, you pretty much have to do a Hemingway these days--make every word count and involve rather than spoon feed your reader--to be taken seriously as a short story writer.

In the real world.

If a mainstream short is 20k that Is the equal to a 5-6 page lit story. In that case a lit author who writes long lit stories is fine

You contradict your own argument

 

[loquere]

It's not productive to ask why it's not hot. It's better to always ask how can I do better. You yourself need to be proud of your work and its message. FUCKEM it's about what makes us happy.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

You're right, and you've reminded me of something I already knew: Talent is immaterial.

There's real talent out there, but few talented readers.

 

[lovecraft68]

It would just be nice that the listing at the bottom of the page was honest. Anything over three Lit. pages doesn't register as longer than that until/unless you doing some clicking to slowly get to those longer page counts.

No, there is a drop tab next to "3" that tells you how many pages the story contains.

 

[lovecraft68]

As always no definitive answer here. I say all the time the only pattern here is there is no pattern

But I agree that when I see a longer story I feel the author put more into it, but more importantly(for my personal taste) is it is generally an indication that it is not stroke.

On the flip side-and again I am only speaking of my feelings-is I stay away from one page stories because to me they scream stroke.

many one pagers I have read are more of a "scene" then a story. No character development, no story, just "Guy walks in sees his wife with another woman and joins them" the entire thing could be a scene dumped into a longer piece.

But that's me, I enjoy writing and reading longer stories.

When I started here I read a lot of posts saying "anything over 3 lit pages is considered too long"

I've found that not to be true, even in contests I have had 7/8 page entries and both did pretty well.

And as far as another theory on the H?

category+fanbase makes a big difference

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

As always no definitive answer here. I say all the time the only pattern here is there is no pattern

But I agree that when I see a longer story I feel the author put more into it, but more importantly(for my personal taste) is it is generally an indication that it is not stroke.

On the flip side-and again I am only speaking of my feelings-is I stay away from one page stories because to me they scream stroke.

many one pagers I have read are more of a "scene" then a story. No character development, no story, just "Guy walks in sees his wife with another woman and joins them" the entire thing could be a scene dumped into a longer piece.

But that's me, I enjoy writing and reading longer stories.

When I started here I read a lot of posts saying "anything over 3 lit pages is considered too long"

I've found that not to be true, even in contests I have had 7/8 page entries and both did pretty well.

And as far as another theory on the H?

category+fanbase makes a big difference

Bucko youre missing a lot cuz John O'Hara's best erotica runs about 1250 words per story. But in America everyone has a right to be wrong, and a right to go broke.

 

[MSTarot]

Long or short if the story doesn't have a good story hook within the first half page to get your interest then it could be anything and any length, it wont matter.

Now if it's got your interest... then who knows. Just how long a story would you like to be reading? 1 page or 10 pages it wont matter all that much so long as you got the time and it's keeping your interest, you will keep reading.

My opinion,worth what it's worth.

 

[sr71plt]

I think what would be fun here would be a FAWC-like exercise challenging entrants to pin down a character at least five ways in 200 words or less, with extra credit in showing rather than telling it and also for doing it within a discernible developing plot and a distinct setting. More extra credit for doing it in the same restrictions with more than one character. It can be done, and it would be an avenue to actually learning how to write competitively.

Much of this "it's gotta be multiple Lit. takes to fully develop characters and plots" is pretty much ignorance and laziness and/or lack of skill. The assertion that it takes more effort to craft a good long story than a good short story is also a lot of bull. Different story lines need different lengths.

 

[lovecraft68]

So basically the next fawc contest should be "Things Pilot thinks he's good at."

 

[lovecraft68]

Long or short if the story doesn't have a good story hook within the first half page to get your interest then it could be anything and any length, it wont matter.

Now if it's got your interest... then who knows. Just how long a story would you like to be reading? 1 page or 10 pages it wont matter all that much so long as you got the time and it's keeping your interest, you will keep reading.

My opinion,worth what it's worth.

The all time best incest story on lit is over 30 lit pages.

Actually at 4.87 on an uncanny 7600 votes (in around 2 years) it is one of the most "successful" stories on lit.

 

[Tx Tall Tales]

The all time best incest story on lit is over 30 lit pages.

Actually at 4.87 on an uncanny 7600 votes (in around 2 years) it is one of the most "successful" stories on lit.

Highest rated but not the best. Words on Skin kicks its ass.

2.5M reads and 1252 favorites. Unbelievable. It is 6 pages long.