Story Discussion: September 17, 2009. "Commander Rainey" by SixtyMinuteMan

[SixtyMinuteMan]

11,281 words, 3+ Lit pages.

I'm not going to provide background to the story here, because one of my questions is whether the story needs more background within it. I'll discuss it more once everyone so inclined has had a chance to read it.

 

[SixtyMinuteMan]

Here's the link: http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=438322

 

[SixtyMinuteMan]

I'm very new to writing for public consumption and I have no real training, so I probably don't know all that I should ask here. The feedback I get from friends is mostly "Squee! Yay story!" Which, while nice, isn't real useful to my growth as a writer.

So what works in this piece? What doesn't? Do I commit any sins that break your immersion in the story? Are there fine points of writing that I'm missing? Do you buy into the characters, and do you like them? Does the sex work for you? Did you, in the final analysis, enjoy the story?

Of special interest are the beginning and ending of the story. I'm terrible at them, I think the only story I've posted where I'm completely happy with both is "Educating Ken".

As long as the two conversations in the story are, they were longer in the beginning. I think they'd have been four Lit. pages all by themselves before editing. Are they still too long?

And lastly, is there still too much military jargon in it? I tried to cut a lot, but I don't want to lose anyone because of it. Do I need to add some explanation or cut some more jargon?

Okay, I'm leery of structuring the discussion too much, because as I said, I don't know all that I should ask. Anything you observe that could be improved, in specific or in a more general way, please tell me.

I'm not sensitive, feel free to bring out the big guns.

 

[driphoney]

Didn't I already rake you over the coals on this story? Gee, where do I go from there? You write so much better than I do, I'm embarrassed to post here, but it's become a habit, so here I go.

So what works in this piece?
Oh, the characters, the dialogue, the fun. Do you know how hard it seems to be for beginners to write first person well? It's hard to believe you're new. I guess there's no fighting natural talent.

What doesn't?
Maybe the length. Maybe. I think I'm just a little ADD these days, so it's probably me.

Do I commit any sins that break your immersion in the story?
Not me.

Are there fine points of writing that I'm missing?
That's for the real writers around here to comment on. I'll sit back and listen.

Do you buy into the characters, and do you like them?
Yep. Very much so.

Does the sex work for you?
Yep. Can I just steal yours and put 'em in my stories. I stink at sex writing.

Did you, in the final analysis, enjoy the story?
Yep.

Of special interest are the beginning and ending of the story. I'm terrible at them, I think the only story I've posted where I'm completely happy with both is "Educating Ken".
I liked the intro. I liked the ending.

As long as the two conversations in the story are, they were longer in the beginning. I think they'd have been four Lit. pages all by themselves before editing. Are they still too long?
Not for me. I liked it. It was very romantic really.

And lastly, is there still too much military jargon in it? I tried to cut a lot, but I don't want to lose anyone because of it. Do I need to add some explanation or cut some more jargon?
No, I thought it was authentic, and I liked that. I happen to know what DLI and Monterey are all about. You could very well leave them in dialogue, just as you did, but take a moment to spell it out in narrative for the clueless reader, or reply back in dialogue in a way the hints at what it is. Same with the LDO.

The only thing that tripped me up is very stupid and arguable, well, mostly it's just stupid. They were talking and talking, all casual. Then, in German, she asks the time and he replies, then asks her if she speaks German. Seems that if he is fluent, or fluent-ish (I am less than fluent-ish!) he would have naturally, as an American speaking German spoken in a casual voice, even if she was an officer and he enlisted. Shoot, they're about to do the nasty! I know, dumb.

I hope you keep writing and sharing. Thanks for bringing your story to the Discussion Circle.

 

[SixtyMinuteMan]

Excellent. Thanks for taking the time, Honey. And you're right, when all is said and done and I incorporate the feedback from this thread, I'll put in a line explaining DLI and Monterey. Not sure why I thought that was okay in context. Maybe I was just tired when I went over that part.

And maybe I can think of a way to clarify the German for the casual speaker who can follow it. In context, what I said was "You speak German?", a semi-surprised exclamation, not "Do you speak German?", but it's the same words and tone doesn't transfer in print. There are other ways to say it that make it clearer, or I could just add "...I said, a little surprised" or something like that. Thanks again.

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm only new to putting my stories out there and worrying about how well written they are. I've been writing these, initially as letters to a friend, since I was 19. Literally half my life, now. But she was more than forgiving of my lack of education and the corresponding roughness of my writing; the early stories sound exactly like they were written by a semi-literate who barely got through high school. Now that I'm showing them to a wider audience, I figure I'd better learn exactly what the fuck I'm doing.

 

[driphoney]

You actually make a good point. Most English reading folks know what Sprechen Sie Deutch is, they wouldn't know the informal form of that (Kannst du Deutch?), and ultimately, that is your reading audience. Like I said, I was being stupid. Also, it's a VERY MINOR point, just a personal glitch. Most English readers aren't going to get much out of the other German words, but they don't matter, the part that gives them a clue is the formal Sprechen Sie Deutch.

Don't worry about it. Non-issue.

 

[poppy_cock]

Sixty, I'll take a look later. I've had a skim read through just now and like what I see...

But one quick question. Is the 'Ken' in your other stories the same Ken as the 'Ken' in this story? Or do you just like the name Ken?

 

[SixtyMinuteMan]

Heh. 'Ken' is me. My stories are very loosely, very very semi, semi-autobiographical. Commander Rainey, with a different name, really exists. Shane, Jon, Nic, etc, all really exist. Marie is really my life-partner. Etc, etc.

On my profile is the rough order of these stories, although it's very rough since many of them are complete flights of fantasy and only a very small number (the 'tamer' ones, obviously) actually happened just as described.

Marie and I and a couple of others have a lot of fun taking things that happen within our small circle of sex-positive friends and turning them into stories that happen with broader casts. And lately her favorite thing has been swapping gender roles; taking stuff from her history and recasting it with me as the protagonist or vice-versa. It's a fun exercise.

The stories remain ostensibly about us, but by the time it's all added up, I especially have become a big-time Mary Sue.

So, yeah. Same Ken. And the basics are accurate, I'm bi and for a while self-identified as gay, just like the Ken of the stories. I refer to him as "Kenny Sue", for obvious reasons. He never strikes out, never gets mad, never has a bad night in the sack, etc, etc, whereas I definitely do.

Probably more answer than you were looking for. I do go on.

 

[poppy_cock]

Okay ‘Ken’ – I’ve had a read.

I reckon I should state straight off that if all someone can do is find nit-picky things wrong with your story, you’re doing pretty well.

Nit-picks are about all I have…

I’ll start with the conversation cos I know it’s something you’re concerned about. On the whole, it works pretty well to have it all talk talk talk. The dialogue sounds pretty authentic, you’ve managed to capture the nuances that point to your characters’ different ranks and backgrounds really well.

One thing I would suggest is that you break it up – just a little bit, here and there, with some description of other stuff that’s going on around them. Now I’m not advising that you break off to describe sunsets or tell us all about the bougainvillea (LOL, please don’t – unless it’s absolutely vital to the scene/plot), but every now and again, it helps the reader to have a place to breathe. Not only that, but you start to feel a bit cheated as a reader if you can’t picture the scene as well as hear it in your head. And not just picture either. Don’t forget smells, textures, all that jazz.

I wonder if you need absolutely every line of that dialogue. What you’ve done is explain nearly all of the backstory through Ken’s dialogue. That it almost works is testament to your natural talent for writing because most newbie writers couldn’t get away with doing that! But maybe some of it could be woven through the narrative and provide some of those ‘place to breathe’ descriptions.

What else? Nit picks, like I said. Don’t use numbers, e.g., 3rd class, 100% - write the words instead – third class, hundred percent.

Be careful over your punctuation. This sort of thing

"You're an asset, Ken." she snapped, suddenly angry.

happened quite a bit. It should be

"You're an asset, Ken," she snapped, suddenly angry.

And take care with your dialogue tags. I seem to remember that someone didn’t like your use of ‘said’. I don’t mind that so much – although to be honest, half the time, the speaker didn’t need the attribution at all. But what I’m talking about here is stuff like

"Well, Senior Chief G is retired on active duty," she smiled.

Really? Have you ever tried to ‘smile’ a sentence? Personally I find it doesn’t work so well. There’s another one later where Ken tried to ‘pause’ a sentence.

"Well," I paused.

would work better as

”Well.” I paused.

I wasn’t sure I liked all the colons. Probably cos I don’t really use them myself and I’m not used to seeing so many in the space of 11,000 words – personal preference and all that, but I wasn’t sure they were necessary.

There are some weird paragraph breaks which might just be formatting issues that appeared somewhere between you submitting your version to Lit and Lit posting up the story.

"I'm very glad that's an order you can't give, Commander." I said with a laugh. I grinned at her for a second, and then laughed again, louder, my head rocking back.

"Jesus, there's a recipe for disaster," I said. "I'd be in the brig twenty minutes after I re-upped."

I’m not at all sure why there needed to be a break there. Ken was still speaking. And if you hadn’t swapped to a new paragraph, maybe you wouldn’t have felt that second “I said” was necessary. Because strictly, it wasn’t necessary at all.

Italics. I’m very fond of italics myself, but to be honest, you could do with losing half of yours. Only use them where you’re sure that the reader won’t get the emphasis on the right word if you don’t.

And finally – er, well. Finally became an issue.

"It's like one of those courtroom dramas where the other side keeps helping Perry Mason make his case." I finally said.

"Setting aside my authority issues, Commander," I finally said

And a few lines later, we get ‘she finally said’, and then just for good measure, ‘she finally asked’.

Just sayin’. We’re all guilty of stuff like that and now I’ve pointed it out, you’ll never want to use ‘finally’ again…

Actually, that’s not my final word. Because the last two pages, you really come into your own. That sex scene was great. I’m with Driphoney, I’m gonna have to borrow bits of that… But seriously, it was very well done. I loved the mix of humor and intensity, the fact that Sarah tried so hard to be in control, LOL – and the way you described all that. First class stuff.

I really enjoyed this piece. Did I understand all the armed forces references? Er, no. Did it matter a jot? Nope. It added that extra level of authenticity required to pull this story off. Was there anything wrong with the way it began and the way it ended? Absolutely not, both were just fine, so don’t worry about that.

I’ll be reading more from you, I think.

 

[SixtyMinuteMan]

Okay ‘Ken’ – I’ve had a read.

I reckon I should state straight off that if all someone can do is find nit-picky things wrong with your story, you’re doing pretty well.

Nit-picks are about all I have…

I’ll start with the conversation cos I know it’s something you’re concerned about. On the whole, it works pretty well to have it all talk talk talk. The dialogue sounds pretty authentic, you’ve managed to capture the nuances that point to your characters’ different ranks and backgrounds really well.

One thing I would suggest is that you break it up – just a little bit, here and there, with some description of other stuff that’s going on around them. Now I’m not advising that you break off to describe sunsets or tell us all about the bougainvillea (LOL, please don’t – unless it’s absolutely vital to the scene/plot), but every now and again, it helps the reader to have a place to breathe. Not only that, but you start to feel a bit cheated as a reader if you can’t picture the scene as well as hear it in your head. And not just picture either. Don’t forget smells, textures, all that jazz.

Good advice, and I'll definitely take it. I'll try to break up that conversation in the restaurant and then on the beach with some narrative. This is a really useful observation, thank you very much.

I wonder if you need absolutely every line of that dialogue. What you’ve done is explain nearly all of the backstory through Ken’s dialogue. That it almost works is testament to your natural talent for writing because most newbie writers couldn’t get away with doing that! But maybe some of it could be woven through the narrative and provide some of those ‘place to breathe’ descriptions.

Okay... now we're challenging my abilities, as I'm not sure how. I'll give it a try. You may be setting yourself up for me tugging on your sleeve saying "Ooh! Ooh! Read it now!" in a few days.

What else? Nit picks, like I said. Don’t use numbers, e.g., 3rd class, 100% - write the words instead – third class, hundred percent.

Be careful over your punctuation. This sort of thing



happened quite a bit. It should be



And take care with your dialogue tags. I seem to remember that someone didn’t like your use of ‘said’. I don’t mind that so much – although to be honest, half the time, the speaker didn’t need the attribution at all. But what I’m talking about here is stuff like



Really? Have you ever tried to ‘smile’ a sentence? Personally I find it doesn’t work so well. There’s another one later where Ken tried to ‘pause’ a sentence. would work better as

I wasn’t sure I liked all the colons. Probably cos I don’t really use them myself and I’m not used to seeing so many in the space of 11,000 words – personal preference and all that, but I wasn’t sure they were necessary.

There are some weird paragraph breaks which might just be formatting issues that appeared somewhere between you submitting your version to Lit and Lit posting up the story. I’m not at all sure why there needed to be a break there. Ken was still speaking. And if you hadn’t swapped to a new paragraph, maybe you wouldn’t have felt that second “I said” was necessary. Because strictly, it wasn’t necessary at all.

Italics. I’m very fond of italics myself, but to be honest, you could do with losing half of yours. Only use them where you’re sure that the reader won’t get the emphasis on the right word if you don’t.

Okay. On the punctuation mistakes, all I can do is blush. Not sure how those got past my eyes and my editor's. I'd have sworn I'd cleaned up all the punctuation and grammar. Oops. I'll clean it up some, thanks.

And yeah, the italics. Now that you mention it I see I have a plague of them. Makes some passages read like a comic book.

Not too long ago I, had, a, plague, of, commas. They were everywhere. Now apparently it's random and useless italics.

And finally – er, well. Finally became an issue.





And a few lines later, we get ‘she finally said’, and then just for good measure, ‘she finally asked’.

Just sayin’. We’re all guilty of stuff like that and now I’ve pointed it out, you’ll never want to use ‘finally’ again…

Er... yeah. You're right, "finally" will now be stricken from my lexicon.

Actually, that’s not my final word. Because the last two pages, you really come into your own. That sex scene was great. I’m with Driphoney, I’m gonna have to borrow bits of that… But seriously, it was very well done. I loved the mix of humor and intensity, the fact that Sarah tried so hard to be in control, LOL – and the way you described all that. First class stuff.

I really enjoyed this piece. Did I understand all the armed forces references? Er, no. Did it matter a jot? Nope. It added that extra level of authenticity required to pull this story off. Was there anything wrong with the way it began and the way it ended? Absolutely not, both were just fine, so don’t worry about that.

I’ll be reading more from you, I think.

You flatter me, and I thank you. Very, very glad you liked the sex scene, I was worried I'd dragged it on too long.

Thank you so much for the time and effort you put into this, you really gave me stuff to sink my teeth into. I'm all charged up to re-edit this and to blast away at another story.

 

[PrincessErin]

.....

 

[Penelope Street]

Hi Ken,

I like the start of this one; you introduce your characters with a scene, show me their interaction, and present the tension of passion subdued by protocol and also the related reenlistment issue.

The story drags a little, especially at their dinner; they keep beating about the same bush without making any dramatic progress either direction- even though that's exactly how many such conversations go, it may be too realistic in that manner. I liked most of the beach scene, except her abrupt overture toward him becoming her secretary. Too soon, I thought. When she came by his place later, that was simply way too soon for me. My interest ended with their first kiss.

Your tale brought back to me a real-life incident from two decades ago that did not end well, so perhaps that also kept me at a distance. That's not a fault of your story, rather the opposite- the more realistic you make a tale, the more likely you'll remind a reader of a disagreeable experience from their past.

Even though I didn't read beyond that first kiss, I think it safe to say the story's well-written and the characters feel alive; with the minor exception of a few nits.

"I'm already in," she said. I turned to see her halfway to my desk. She waved me down as I started to stand.
Maybe this just me, but I'd like to see his response (in this case turning and starting to stand) in its own paragraph, even if he's not speaking.
Similar issue with the following: "It's like one of those courtroom dramas where the other side keeps helping Perry Mason make his case." I finally said. She laughed.
And this one too: "Oh, very dry," I laughed. Rainey grinned at me.

"Sit, sit. No need to discover military protocol this late in the game." I like this line. It's so strong it makes the following explanation redundant:The Commander had been giving me good-natured grief for a couple months over my somewhat haphazard relationship with the little rituals of the service.

"I'm sure you'll wear your silver leaves as well as you've worn those gold ones."
Moments like the above felt a little forced- like the author is attempting to lay the navy icing so thick on the navy cake that it all becomes a bit cloying. I didn't notice it quite so much after that first scene; I'm not sure if you turned it down a notch or I just got used to it. If the latter, then maybe it's not such an issue after all.

"First of all: no, everyone wouldn't have done what you did. A number of people stood right there and watched you do it, right?"
The conversation regarding Ken's past issue seems a bit stilted, particularly the 'what you did' part. It's not as if these two naturally need to talk around this subject- except to not tell the reader what it was, which seems like so much false drama since what he did isn't all that important anyway.

"You're an asset, Ken." she snapped, suddenly angry.
This is a classic showing versus telling moment; showing us she's angry, and then telling us too.
Here's another that's similar; can she say this any way other than curtly?
"You need to watch it now." she said curtly.

"Lady, you are something else," I laughed.
I thought the 'lady' bit was way too condescending in this context. Is that what you had in mind? Ok, so she addresses the issue a few sentences later, but it's still too soft a response for me. I expected an immediate reply, like, "Don't give me any of that lady shit, sailor!"

"'Gee, Commander, I'd love to come with you, but I'm really just an erection with feet.' You're such a fuckin' idiot."
Now that's just soooo right! Thank you. That said, I think the entire subplot involving Jordan to be a distraction, at best. At worst, it suggests Ken really is an erection with feet and that women are interchangeable with him- entirely believable for a male his age, but so not attractive. If he really has the feelings he pretends to have for Jordan, I don't think he and Rainey get together so soon after Jordan is gone.

I agree with Ken- he doesn't belong in the navy, which leaves me with serious doubts about the long-term viability of any relationship he might have with Rainey.

That's all I have for now. Thanks for sharing your story with us!

Take Care,
Penny

 

[jacks4u]

Hey, Sixty!
I read your story, and was quite enthrawled with it. Thanks for sharing it here on Literotica, and for giving us a chance to comment on it.

I'm very new to writing for public consumption and I have no real training, so I probably don't know all that I should ask here.
The feedback I get from friends is mostly "Squee! Yay story!" Which, while nice, isn't real useful to my growth as a writer.​

Welcome to the club! I'm also quite new here, and have only one, soon to be two stories here, and a couple articles on another website. So, I'm not much of an author, but I do know what I like to read. You seem to have a natural talent, and pulled off a really erotic story without it sounding like porno. As for comments, yea, that's the way it usually goes.

So what works in this piece? What doesn't? Do I commit any sins that break your immersion in the story? Are there fine points of writing that I'm missing? Do you buy into the characters, and do you like them? Does the sex work for you? Did you, in the final analysis, enjoy the story?​

The character Sarah is quite believable. As a full bird colonel, I'd expect her to be quite demanding, not a person to roll over and accept any outcome, other than the one she wanted. Ken also works well, as the loverboy soldier and generally likable rebel. What I don't get is exactly what happened for him to have lost rank, and get injured in the process. Both characters are likable, but it's not totally necessary for the reader to like the characters. It is important for the characters to be true only to themselves. You nail that one as well. The military teaches up to be soldiers first, human beings second, and that's what I see here, as the 'bone of contention'. Personally, I've never been with a woman that so thoroughly dominated, but given her position and status, that's understandable. The sex scenes were erotic without being trashey.

Of special interest are the beginning and ending of the story. I'm terrible at them, I think the only story I've posted where I'm completely happy with both is "Educating Ken".​

I like that you interspersed back story within this story, well done there. But as I wrote above, I'd like to know a little more about Ken's history, as noted above.

As long as the two conversations in the story are, they were longer in the beginning. I think they'd have been four Lit. pages all by themselves before editing. Are they still too long?​

I feel most of the dialog was mental sparring, I think you meant it to be that way, and it works for me in this story. you did manage to convey meaning with not only conversation, but also body language. There were a couple instances where I wasn't quite sure who was thinking or speaking, and it drew me out of the story long enough to figure that out, but I can't seem to find them now.

And lastly, is there still too much military jargon in it? I tried to cut a lot, but I don't want to lose anyone because of it. Do I need to add some explanation or cut some more jargon?​

I can't really address this point. I was in the Air Force, and understand much of the jargon. I'll let others comment more fully, but will say the jargon didn't, for me, detract.

Okay, I'm leery of structuring the discussion too much, because as I said, I don't know all that I should ask. Anything you observe that could be improved, in specific or in a more general way, please tell me.​

I'm not sure I'm qualified to give you tips or pointers. I should aspire to write stories as well as you do (which is why I critique. Writers can learn from a reader's perspective, and I learn by analyzing my own reactions to a story, and by reading comments from others about the same stories.)

I hope I've helped you out,

Thanks.

Jacks

 

[Penelope Street]

I glanced at the questions last night and decided I'd at least touched on most of them, but a few jumped out at me when I gave them a second look today.

Do you buy into the characters, and do you like them?
The characters are believable, but now that you mention it, I really didn't like them. He seems to be little more than a shallow player, so it's clear enough from the outset what he wants, but I'm not at all sure why she's interested in him.

I've a hard time imagining he's really so indispensable, which means she's either lying to herself or intentionally stroking his ego on the way to stroking more than his ego.

I really like that you didn't tell me much about Ken's appearance, but I think it's clear he's attractive, but is that all there is too it? Real life works that way often enough, but if real life was all that, why would we love fiction like we do?

Are there fine points of writing that I'm missing? Of special interest are the beginning and ending of the story.
I think you introduced the tension well enough, but how did you resolve it? The only thing between this couple getting together right away is military protocol, right? Clearly, that's not an issue from his perspective, so it's only a barrier to her and when they're on the beach and she indicates she's willing to circumvent the regulations, what conflict remains? None in the short term, but there's still the issue of whether he reenlists. So does he? If he doesn't, how does she react?

As long as the two conversations in the story are, they were longer in the beginning. I think they'd have been four Lit. pages all by themselves before editing. Are they still too long?
I love dialog, but when the conversation isn't advancing the story or revealing additional character, then it's time to move on.

Is there still too much military jargon in it? I tried to cut a lot, but I don't want to lose anyone because of it. Do I need to add some explanation or cut some more jargon?
While I thought some of the jargon felt forced, if navy personnel really speak in this manner, then I say you should leave it the way it is without any explanation.

 

[SixtyMinuteMan]

I read your story and to use a quote from someone else, I didn't find anything structurely wrong with it. It was a great read with very hot, steamy sex.

I loved the dialogue and really enjoyed seeing how the story continues and unfolded based on the dialogue.

I did find that the story setting to be too detailed. I'll try to explain what I mean. I don't know anything about the Navy but for some reason I felt like I was being given a lesson on it as the story progressed. I'm not sure what to do about that but a change to give only minor details would be good.

Glad you liked it, especially the sex. I liked how it turned out, but wasn't sure how it would reach an audience outside my circle of friends. And I'm very glad you liked the dialogue.

As to the jargon... yeah, I'm trying to bleed it out of the other stories that are set back in my service days. It's tough, half the language in the service is jargon, but I think you're right.

Maybe a balance between simply eliminating it and throwing in little explanations would be good. I'm not trying to write service procedurals, not trying to be W.E.B. Griffin or anything, but I think a bit of the flavor adds something.

I don't know. The next one I'm working on is actually set partly aboard ship during a cruise, so there's lots of opportunity to explore this. I'll try to find something that works.

Thanks for taking the time, Princess. Had a busy weekend, but I'm going to respond to your discussion thread sometime today or tonight.

 

[SixtyMinuteMan]

Okay, guessing Penny's not a fan. I was warned to check my ego at the door, and I did ask for the big guns.

Hi Ken,

I like the start of this one; you introduce your characters with a scene, show me their interaction, and present the tension of passion subdued by protocol and also the related reenlistment issue.

The story drags a little, especially at their dinner; they keep beating about the same bush without making any dramatic progress either direction- even though that's exactly how many such conversations go, it may be too realistic in that manner. I liked most of the beach scene, except her abrupt overture toward him becoming her secretary. Too soon, I thought. When she came by his place later, that was simply way too soon for me. My interest ended with their first kiss.

Your tale brought back to me a real-life incident from two decades ago that did not end well, so perhaps that also kept me at a distance. That's not a fault of your story, rather the opposite- the more realistic you make a tale, the more likely you'll remind a reader of a disagreeable experience from their past.

Interestingly, when I was carving down the conversation- it was at least twice as long in the beginning, I took out an entire conversational topic at the restaurant for lack of directly moving the story- I thought the dinner scene read better and cut out a good bit exactly where she mentions the idea of him as her "mistress". Felt it weakened her character to have her lead up to what she wanted to say, and what was already in her mind before the evening even started. When I re-edit, I think I'll aim more at clearly showing what she had in mind ahead of time than changing that particular spot.

Even though I didn't read beyond that first kiss, I think it safe to say the story's well-written and the characters feel alive; with the minor exception of a few nits.

"I'm already in," she said. I turned to see her halfway to my desk. She waved me down as I started to stand.
Maybe this just me, but I'd like to see his response (in this case turning and starting to stand) in its own paragraph, even if he's not speaking.
Similar issue with the following: "It's like one of those courtroom dramas where the other side keeps helping Perry Mason make his case." I finally said. She laughed.
And this one too: "Oh, very dry," I laughed. Rainey grinned at me.

"Sit, sit. No need to discover military protocol this late in the game." I like this line. It's so strong it makes the following explanation redundant:The Commander had been giving me good-natured grief for a couple months over my somewhat haphazard relationship with the little rituals of the service.

"I'm sure you'll wear your silver leaves as well as you've worn those gold ones."
Moments like the above felt a little forced- like the author is attempting to lay the navy icing so thick on the navy cake that it all becomes a bit cloying. I didn't notice it quite so much after that first scene; I'm not sure if you turned it down a notch or I just got used to it. If the latter, then maybe it's not such an issue after all.

"First of all: no, everyone wouldn't have done what you did. A number of people stood right there and watched you do it, right?"
The conversation regarding Ken's past issue seems a bit stilted, particularly the 'what you did' part. It's not as if these two naturally need to talk around this subject- except to not tell the reader what it was, which seems like so much false drama since what he did isn't all that important anyway.

"You're an asset, Ken." she snapped, suddenly angry.
This is a classic showing versus telling moment; showing us she's angry, and then telling us too.
Here's another that's similar; can she say this any way other than curtly?
"You need to watch it now." she said curtly.

On the structural stuff, my thanks. On some of the other stuff: I was trying to find a balance between throwing in enough service stuff to establish the characters in the minds of former servicepeople and in the minds of civilians, and was hoping I'd done it without having to have Ken narrate it, a la "I was something of a bad sailor in that while I was good at my job, I was terrible at the everyday protocols and artificial respect one has to show. It's not that I was a bad guy, just undisciplined and maybe a little amoral." I've always felt that kind of narration was a cop-out and borders on telling the reader what to think of the characters. I'd rather put them out there, warts and all, and let the reader decide. Hopefully as my skill improves, I'll pull it off a little better.

"Lady, you are something else," I laughed.
I thought the 'lady' bit was way too condescending in this context. Is that what you had in mind? Ok, so she addresses the issue a few sentences later, but it's still too soft a response for me. I expected an immediate reply, like, "Don't give me any of that lady shit, sailor!"

Yeah, this was a hard mark to hit and I guess I missed it by at least a little. Tone of voice and the nuances of the games we sometimes play in the service are two difficult things to convey, and maybe I shouldn't have tried.

By way of explanation, this is an example of the kind of thing that separates some sailors and some officers from others, and it's more character establishment. He's pushing the bounds without quite stepping into open disrespect- nothing fundamentally wrong with the word "Lady" after all- while still complimenting her sincerely. It's a game a lot of sailors play, flirting as close as they can to overfamiliarity or unprofessionalism while still staying on the unpunishable side. And what it's saying about her is that she's the kind of officer who isn't going to react to something like that; she takes it in her stride and moves on and thus avoids looking like a petty fool. I'll try to do such things in a clearer way in the future, but there is realism there. It's a common thing.

"'Gee, Commander, I'd love to come with you, but I'm really just an erection with feet.' You're such a fuckin' idiot."
Now that's just soooo right! Thank you. That said, I think the entire subplot involving Jordan to be a distraction, at best. At worst, it suggests Ken really is an erection with feet and that women are interchangeable with him- entirely believable for a male his age, but so not attractive. If he really has the feelings he pretends to have for Jordan, I don't think he and Rainey get together so soon after Jordan is gone.

Probably should have just cut this and put it back once the stories of Jordan's and my relationship are up. I left it because that line made me laugh, and the exchange that follows, but if you don't know Jordan of course it wouldn't. Vanity on my part. I'll cut the entire piece on the re-edit.

And he's not actually all that shallow, although I realize that's easy to say. Hopefully more chapters of my stories, if you read them, will convey that. Ken (and I, since I'm who he's based on) had a deliberate, considered, and temporary attitude toward relationships while he was in the Navy. Lots of sailors, officer and enlisted, do. Doesn't mean what he felt wasn't real, just means everyone had the expectation that it would end when duty dictated, and that they had the corresponding emotional safeguards. Or tried to. He alludes to it in the conversation with Commander Rainey as they walk.

I thought I'd conveyed that in this chapter during the conversation on the beach, but maybe that's something I can do better. I'll give it a go.

I agree with Ken- he doesn't belong in the navy, which leaves me with serious doubts about the long-term viability of any relationship he might have with Rainey.

That's all I have for now. Thanks for sharing your story with us!

Take Care,
Penny

Well... there isn't any long-term viability. Man, I really conveyed less about their expectations than I thought. I was hoping that the talk on the beach had established that a hot affair, however brief, would sound pretty good to her.

Back to the drawing board. Going to be some serious re-working of that extended conversation, I missed pretty severely what I was trying to establish about them both.

Thanks for the feedback, Penny. Fair to say I'll do some growing as a writer after I've digested all this.

 

[SixtyMinuteMan]

Hey, Sixty!
I read your story, and was quite enthrawled with it. Thanks for sharing it here on Literotica, and for giving us a chance to comment on it.

I'm very new to writing for public consumption and I have no real training, so I probably don't know all that I should ask here.
The feedback I get from friends is mostly "Squee! Yay story!" Which, while nice, isn't real useful to my growth as a writer.​

Welcome to the club! I'm also quite new here, and have only one, soon to be two stories here, and a couple articles on another website. So, I'm not much of an author, but I do know what I like to read. You seem to have a natural talent, and pulled off a really erotic story without it sounding like porno. As for comments, yea, that's the way it usually goes.

So what works in this piece? What doesn't? Do I commit any sins that break your immersion in the story? Are there fine points of writing that I'm missing? Do you buy into the characters, and do you like them? Does the sex work for you? Did you, in the final analysis, enjoy the story?​

The character Sarah is quite believable. As a full bird colonel, I'd expect her to be quite demanding, not a person to roll over and accept any outcome, other than the one she wanted. Ken also works well, as the loverboy soldier and generally likable rebel. What I don't get is exactly what happened for him to have lost rank, and get injured in the process. Both characters are likable, but it's not totally necessary for the reader to like the characters. It is important for the characters to be true only to themselves. You nail that one as well. The military teaches up to be soldiers first, human beings second, and that's what I see here, as the 'bone of contention'. Personally, I've never been with a woman that so thoroughly dominated, but given her position and status, that's understandable. The sex scenes were erotic without being trashey.

Of special interest are the beginning and ending of the story. I'm terrible at them, I think the only story I've posted where I'm completely happy with both is "Educating Ken".​

I like that you interspersed back story within this story, well done there. But as I wrote above, I'd like to know a little more about Ken's history, as noted above.

As long as the two conversations in the story are, they were longer in the beginning. I think they'd have been four Lit. pages all by themselves before editing. Are they still too long?​

I feel most of the dialog was mental sparring, I think you meant it to be that way, and it works for me in this story. you did manage to convey meaning with not only conversation, but also body language. There were a couple instances where I wasn't quite sure who was thinking or speaking, and it drew me out of the story long enough to figure that out, but I can't seem to find them now.

And lastly, is there still too much military jargon in it? I tried to cut a lot, but I don't want to lose anyone because of it. Do I need to add some explanation or cut some more jargon?​

I can't really address this point. I was in the Air Force, and understand much of the jargon. I'll let others comment more fully, but will say the jargon didn't, for me, detract.

Okay, I'm leery of structuring the discussion too much, because as I said, I don't know all that I should ask. Anything you observe that could be improved, in specific or in a more general way, please tell me.​

I'm not sure I'm qualified to give you tips or pointers. I should aspire to write stories as well as you do (which is why I critique. Writers can learn from a reader's perspective, and I learn by analyzing my own reactions to a story, and by reading comments from others about the same stories.)

I hope I've helped you out,

Thanks.

Jacks

Thanks a lot, jacks4u. The combination of your feedback and Penelope's makes me think that maybe I've been able to convey the type of sailor Ken was to people who were in the service, but not to people who weren't. Now I'll have to find a way to convey it to the civilian crowd without making it too heavy-handed for the service folk.

Maybe I've bitten off more than I can chew, here.

As to Ken's history... yeah, I could have done a better job of getting more in there. Not sure why I thought allusion would be enough. You'll read most of it in my stories as they go up (assuming you read them) but fwiw, the injury and the trouble were separate incidents. I may change his history in the details, separate it from mine, but as of the moment what Ken got in trouble for was punching a guy who was in the process of renting a 12- or 13-year-old whore in southeast Asia. A stripe was lost, a 45/45/half x2 was served, and a lesson was painfully learned. The broken leg was simple carelessness about a year later.

And yeah, you helped me out a lot. Thanks again!

 

[_Lynn_]

I see that I am the minority here.

Tonight is the third time I started your story. However, I never made it through the first page. I can not get into first person stories. "I" didn't do those things, and "I" can't relate to them. Sorry.

 

[Penelope Street]

Okay, guessing Penny's not a fan.

While it's true your story didn't hold my interest, that's not necessarily a shortcoming with the story- I may not be part of your intended audience. I did find it well-written and I can see how it might really work for those who want a stroke story with a little extra spice in the recipe. What I'm still not certain about is whether the story was meant to be anything beyond that.

Felt it weakened her character to have her lead up to what she wanted to say, and what was already in her mind before the evening even started.

Interesting! It's clear enough, at least to me, she wants him long term and I just didn't see her accepting anything less, so I thought it weakened her character to settle for less, especially so quickly.

I was trying to find a balance between throwing in enough service stuff to establish the characters in the minds of former service people and in the minds of civilians, and was hoping I'd done it without having to have Ken narrate it, a la "I was something of a bad sailor in that while I was good at my job, I was terrible at the everyday protocols and artificial respect one has to show. It's not that I was a bad guy, just undisciplined and maybe a little amoral." I've always felt that kind of narration was a cop-out and borders on telling the reader what to think of the characters. I'd rather put them out there, warts and all, and let the reader decide. Hopefully as my skill improves, I'll pull it off a little better.

You're right, that kind of narration is lame and it more than borders on telling the reader what to think. Did you miss the part where I appreciated your lively opening and wanted even less explanation? You did a fine job of character development. No need to fret just because one reader failed to connect with those characters. It's worth noting that, while I didn't really like them, I didn't dislike them either.

He's pushing the bounds without quite stepping into open disrespect- nothing fundamentally wrong with the word "Lady" after all- while still complimenting her sincerely.

I suppose that's one way to look at it, but with the rest of that sentence, it seems far from a sincere compliment.

I left it because that line made me laugh.

I laughed too- I'd be sad to see that line go.

Well... there isn't any long-term viability. Man, I really conveyed less about their expectations than I thought. I was hoping that the talk on the beach had established that a hot affair, however brief, would sound pretty good to her.

Yeah, I guess I totally didn't get that. What's with all the "reenlist and come with me to Naples and beyond" business if she doesn't envision long-term boy-toy viability?

Back to the drawing board. Going to be some serious re-working of that extended conversation, I missed pretty severely what I was trying to establish about them both.

So what do you want to establish in that extended conversation? If your goal is to show that Rainey is interested in a brief fling, then maybe focusing so much on the reenlistment issue is counter-productive? And should Rainey be jealous of Jordan? If she really wants him and has a justifiable reason, I can see her ordering him to end that relationship- after all, if theirs is to be a short-term relationship, then every day Jordan gets is one less she gets, right?

The combination of [Jack's] feedback and Penelope's makes me think that maybe I've been able to convey the type of sailor Ken was to people who were in the service, but not to people who weren't.

So did you imagine I was in the military, or not?

 

[SixtyMinuteMan]

I see that I am the minority here.

Tonight is the third time I started your story. However, I never made it through the first page. I can not get into first person stories. "I" didn't do those things, and "I" can't relate to them. Sorry.

I'm always curious when I read this as a blanket statement. Does it apply to all first-person writing, or just erotica? I mean, it would be a shame to be cut off from Moby Dick because Ishmael tells you the story directly. Or from Huck Finn, Sherlock Holmes, and virtually all detective fiction, for that matter.

I mean, whatever floats your boat, especially with erotica, it's just always seemed a strange thing to me. Seems like it would apply more to second-person stories. First person is a friend writing you a letter, it's supposed to be accessible and intimate.

 

[_Lynn_]

I'm always curious when I read this as a blanket statement. Does it apply to all first-person writing, or just erotica? I mean, it would be a shame to be cut off from Moby Dick because Ishmael tells you the story directly. Or from Huck Finn, Sherlock Holmes, and virtually all detective fiction, for that matter.

I mean, whatever floats your boat, especially with erotica, it's just always seemed a strange thing to me. Seems like it would apply more to second-person stories. First person is a friend writing you a letter, it's supposed to be accessible and intimate.

For one thing, it's very rare that I read erotica. As for detective fiction, it's not a genre I'm interested in. Sherlock Holmes? Ishmael? Huck Finn? Um, no thank you.

First person might be 'a friend writing me a letter', but a story isn't a letter. I know the difference.

 

[SixtyMinuteMan]

While it's true your story didn't hold my interest, that's not necessarily a shortcoming with the story- I may not be part of your intended audience. I did find it well-written and I can see how it might really work for those who want a stroke story with a little extra spice in the recipe. What I'm still not certain about is whether the story was meant to be anything beyond that.

I'd prefer to think of it as a decent character piece with some good stroke to it, but perhaps I flatter myself. I thank you for the "well-written".

Interesting! It's clear enough, at least to me, she wants him long term and I just didn't see her accepting anything less, so I thought it weakened her character to settle for less, especially so quickly.

Now I'm looking back on her motivations. At a guess, I'd say she intended to keep persuading, but was willing to have a fling either way. Certainly she didn't give up on the re-enlistment idea that night, although she never used the relationship to press it.

Which I don't mean as an excuse for a weak motivation within the story. Never considered it, really, in the back of my mind I think she's still somewhat above my understanding.

Hell, Penny, you're going to have me re-writing until Christmas. This thing is going to be a tome.

You're right, that kind of narration is lame and it more than borders on telling the reader what to think. Did you miss the part where I appreciated your lively opening and wanted even less explanation? You did a fine job of character development. No need to fret just because one reader failed to connect with those characters. It's worth noting that, while I didn't really like them, I didn't dislike them either.

Duly noted.

I suppose that's one way to look at it, but with the rest of that sentence, it seems far from a sincere compliment.

It was. Very much so. I'll give it a look, maybe put in a line of explanation. His next line, about it generally being the senior noncom who has the command that wired, doesn't clarify that he meant the compliment?

I laughed too- I'd be sad to see that line go.

If I kill it, it'll definitely be back after the Jordan stories are up. Part of this may just be the hazards of posting them out of order, I'm engaging in a little friend-service by posting the gang's favorites first.

Yeah, I guess I totally didn't get that. What's with all the "reenlist and come with me to Naples and beyond" business if she doesn't envision long-term boy-toy viability?

Well, she does envision long-term boy-toy availability. But that's all she envisions, is boy-toy availability, plus of course the usefulness of a capable noncom. When he reveals himself over the course of the evening to be more than a boy-toy, the dynamic changes. Or at least that's what I was going for.

So what do you want to establish in that extended conversation? If your goal is to show that Rainey is interested in a brief fling, then maybe focusing so much on the reenlistment issue is counter-productive? And should Rainey be jealous of Jordan? If she really wants him and has a justifiable reason, I can see her ordering him to end that relationship- after all, if theirs is to be a short-term relationship, then every day Jordan gets is one less she gets, right?

As to the Jordan question, Rainey knows it's already over, both because she knows Jordan has shipped out and because they actually talk about it on the beach. Did that not convey in the story?

So did you imagine I was in the military, or not?

I imagined not, although you asking this makes me think otherwise.

 

[SixtyMinuteMan]

For one thing, it's very rare that I read erotica. As for detective fiction, it's not a genre I'm interested in. Sherlock Holmes? Ishmael? Huck Finn? Um, no thank you.

First person might be 'a friend writing me a letter', but a story isn't a letter. I know the difference.

Well, I'm sorry you feel that way. Both for the sake of any potential for you to enjoy my stories, since first-person is how I write, and for the vast body of literature that is cut off to you. I suppose I can relate to an extent, since while I recognize that second-person can be a legitimate storytelling device, it doesn't really reach me.

Not sure how to respond in a more specific way, I'm afraid. "I don't like the medium you use" is a valid opinion, but it's kind of hard to respond to as a criticism. Not much I can change to reach you, you know? If I ever give third-person a try I'll certainly post here and hope for your feedback.

Autobiographies must have been torture for you in school.

 

[_Lynn_]

Well, I'm sorry you feel that way. Both for the sake of any potential for you to enjoy my stories, since first-person is how I write, and for the vast body of literature that is cut off to you. I suppose I can relate to an extent, since while I recognize that second-person can be a legitimate storytelling device, it doesn't really reach me.

Not sure how to respond in a more specific way, I'm afraid. "I don't like the medium you use" is a valid opinion, but it's kind of hard to respond to as a criticism. Not much I can change to reach you, you know? If I ever give third-person a try I'll certainly post here and hope for your feedback.

Autobiographies must have been torture for you in school.

What I read when I was in school wasn't my choice. I read the assigned books and did the work.

I don't see this as a big deal. I'm one person that doesn't like first person. I don't care for incest stories either, for example. But I don't feel as if anything is 'cut off from me' because of any of my preferences.

 

[SixtyMinuteMan]

Okay, in light of a couple of PMs I've gotten, let me clarify something that maybe I didn't convey fully:

Ken is based on me. Marie is based on my lover. The stories that I mostly made up for first one friend, then several, over many years are in some cases based on some things we did, but are all at least fictionalized, and a majority are total flights of fancy. Marie didn't really bang 5 strangers as told in "Wedding Party", I didn't really get it on with four guys in one day as in "Ski Trip". And, without telling too much, no one remembers a conversation absolutely verbatim even the next day, much less years later. So even stories with some basis in reality are largely fictional. These are creative writing exercises, not play-by-plays. The ones that are truly factual will be readily apparent.

As we all know, real-life hookups often occur after no more seduction than an exchange of winks and an oh-so-coy "So... ya wanna?" That's not, however, a recipe for a good story. I'm not going to be specific about which stories are true or partially true or to what degree; that would be telling. But what you're responding to here is definitely creative writing, definitely at least fictionalized.

I had no idea of the tripwires around here.