Story discussion: 5/14/10, Opening Up Letting Go, by GrumpyGamby

[GrumpyGamby]

I've recently submitted a story here. This is the first time I've ever shown anyone something I've written, other than for work. I'm very new at this.

The story is about a middle aged couple who are working their way back from estrangement. As a result of sexual abuse suffered during the wife's childhood, the marriage was largely sexless. This story begins after their marriage has hit smoother ground and a better connected relationship. The husband is happy it's better, but wants even more. Included in each of the first 6 chapters, are the husband's ruminations on their past, each chapter's rumination becomes more and more detailed until all, perhaps more than necessary, has been revealed and the story moves forward from there. Chapter 7 deals with the reasons why the husband suddenly decided good wasn't good enough.


The complete story is broken into 10 chapters, consisting of 8 posts, a total of 37,000 words. The fist two posts are in BDSM, third post is nonconsent, and the remaining are in loving wives.

 

[GrumpyGamby]

Opening Up Letting Go

Here is the link to where all 8 posts of the story are listed:
http://www.literotica.com/stories/memberpage.php?uid=1179605&page=submissions

If I may suggest, in the interest of your time, you read either chapter 05-06 or chapter 7 or 8 and THEN read chapter 9, or 10; and here's why:

Chapters 01-08 are narrated in the husband's voice. Chapter 9 and 10 are narrated in the wife's voice. As you read, you will see why this was necessary in order to tell the story.

Because I am working on another story that also involves changing the voice of the narration, I really need feedback, pointers and suggestions for improvement on that particular point. Other than channeling my inner "Sybil" if there are tricks of the trade, I'd be happy to learn them.

Obviously, I thank you for your time and thoughts. I appreciate the opportunity to learn without paying tuition. I beg you to ignore the first post of this story; it's really in need of even further work, but I've got this other story that's captured me for now.

Thanks again,
Gamby

 

[Penelope Street]

I only read chapter seven so far. I'm not sure when I'll make time for another chapter.

"Baltimore? What are we going to Baltimore for?" Tina said the name of the city as if it left a bad taste in her mouth.

In spoken lines like this, I usually find it best to include at the first pause the accompanying prose that identifies the speaker. Adjusted in this manner, your line could read: "Baltimore?" Tina said the name of the city as if it left a bad taste in her mouth. "What are we going to Baltimore for?" Sure, it's a minor and subjective comment, but this the first line I read. While I'm being nitpicky, since it is a new scene, I think it'd also be best to identify the speaker of the next line instead of leaving it unattributed.

Those nits aside, it's a good start, we're already seeing some tension. Any reason to interrupt the narrative soon afterward to explain the history of an ex-bedroom? I have a hard time believing the story changes much if you just leave that out.

Tina successfully resisted the urge to crow on the rooftop that she had been right.

How do we know this? It sure looks like a POV issue.

The Simon-Says game got old fast, but at least it after the phone call it went somewhere other than the gratuitous happy couple sex scene I expected- so good job there. It so happens the last erotic story I finished featured a character dying from ALS, go firgue!

"Simon says freeze. I'm sorry babe but I have to take this call, I've been expecting it. It won't take long though so you just stay right where you are."

He seems a little weak here. Is that what you had in mind?

"Yes, God damn it I said I'm fine. Now will you please let me get straightened out here?" I said much more forcefully than I should have. I needed her out of the room. I wasn't keeping it together like I had been. I needed to get this call over with and regroup, in private.

Anytime you feel the need to explain why a character says something, there's a good chance that either the dialogue could be improved or the explanation is unnecessary. In this case, I think it's the latter.

"That's fine Mr. Wright. I understand this is all new to you and overwhelming as hell."

The mild profanity at the end struck me as unprofessional. Is that what you had in mind?

On the whole, chapter seven was decent, even if the narrative feels a little cluttered and the pacing lags here and there.

 

[GrumpyGamby]

Thank you Penny. I was afraid the story would be too long for use here, and that reading through only two chapters would be extremely hard to get into nuances.

Originally Posted by Story
"Baltimore? What are we going to Baltimore for?" Tina said the name of the city as if it left a bad taste in her mouth."

Penny: <<In spoken lines like this, I usually find it best to include at the first pause the accompanying prose that identifies the speaker. Adjusted in this manner, your line could read: "Baltimore?" Tina said the name of the city as if it left a bad taste in her mouth. "What are we going to Baltimore for?" Sure, it's a minor and subjective comment, but this the first line I read. While I'm being nitpicky, since it is a new scene, I think it'd also be best to identify the speaker of the next line instead of leaving it unattributed.>>

Agreed, good point. Especially regarding identifying who's speaking at the start of a new chapter.

If possible, I'd really like more clarification on interrupting dialogue because there are a lot, a whole lot of places where I could have added interruptions in the dialogue, really a lot of places. But I didn't for two reasons and they are both subjective.
1. As a reader, I dislike interruptions in dialogue and tend to skip them with out conscious thought. Since I don't like it as a reader, I figured I'd treat the reader the way I like to be treated?
2. I'm not a good enough writer to know where and how to break it up. I can't see what I've written only using the black and white that's on the page, unless a lot of time has elapsed; like a week or more.

Penny:<<Those nits aside, it's a good start, we're already seeing some tension. Any reason to interrupt the narrative soon afterward to explain the history of an ex-bedroom? I have a hard time believing the story changes much if you just leave that out. >>

This was an attempt, and perhaps a weak one at best, to reveal a clue about Jack's health. I've put several in this chapter and the chapter before, building in blatancy until Jack falls down holding the phone. From that point on, the reader obviously knows (at least I think they know) they will soon learn exactly what is happening to Jack. In this paragraph it is revealed that Jack wants his older two boys to move back home after they graduate. Maybe I'm assuming too much but most parents of graduating adults are expecting their offspring to continue the move toward independence by NOT moving back home. Therefore, there must be something wrong if a parent, and a father at that, actually wants his college graduates to move back into the family home. Too convoluted?


Originally Posted by Story
"Tina successfully resisted the urge to crow on the rooftop that she had been right."

Penny:<<How do we know this? It sure looks like a POV issue. >>

I'm not sure what you mean? 1. How do you know she in fact did not crow about being right? 2. That she was right about the chair being worth the price? 3. That another aspect of her personality, as Jack sees it, is being revealed?

My answers would be
1. Because there were no further mentions of Tina being right and jack being wrong. Do you suggest I should have made that clearer with something like; " ... on the rooftop that she had been right. She kept her mouth still and averted her eyes whenever the cost of the chair was mentioned again."
2. Because Jack says so.
3. That one I can't answer. I'm assuming that beginning this story at chapter seven, there would be lots of POV inferences that might need further proof or explanations that perhaps would not exist had the story been read from the beginning.

However, it's entirely possible that Tina's personality, as revealed by Jack through the first 8 chapters, is choppy and incomplete. That would not be a feedback comment that surprised me.

Originally Posted by Story
"Simon says freeze. I'm sorry babe but I have to take this call, I've been expecting it. It won't take long though so you just stay right where you are."

Penny:<<He seems a little weak here. Is that what you had in mind? >>

Do you mean that the wording I've selected makes Jack seem wimpy, too apologetic, bland; thus making Jack come off as weak, wimpy and bland?

I can only answer with this...If my husband stopped such activity to answer a call, well there wouldn't be enough groveling and apologizing for placing a phone call's importance before his wife, given the stated activity... ahem.

Which of your stories includes ALS? Such a rare disease and yet two stories posted with ALS as a theme?

Understood about the Simon says game being predictable and gratuitous. No defense offered. I assume this is an example of unimaginitive writing.

I wanted to reveal Jacks fears about what will be happening to him, within a sex scene specifically. The sex scene itself was not the point. Do you think if I had put Jack's thoughts sooner into the game, or the phone call interrupting right after Jack has these thoughts, it would have worked better? Or was the predictable and over done Simon says game that ruined it for you?

Originally Posted by Story
"Yes, God damn it I said I'm fine. Now will you please let me get straightened out here?" I said much more forcefully than I should have. I needed her out of the room. I wasn't keeping it together like I had been. I needed to get this call over with and regroup, in private."

Penny:<<Anytime you feel the need to explain why a character says something, there's a good chance that either the dialogue could be improved or the explanation is unnecessary. In this case, I think it's the latter.>>

I think you're right. Reading the next paragraph explains his guilty feeling for having over reacted and the reader can infer why he over reacted. Thanks!

Originally Posted by Story
"That's fine Mr. Wright. I understand this is all new to you and overwhelming as hell."

Penny:<<The mild profanity at the end struck me as unprofessional. Is that what you had in mind>>

It does stick out as not what one would expect from a professional. Sometimes, to build trust and make a connection meaningful enough to render assistance, the professional wall must crack, just a little. But that is wholly dependent on how well the client/patient is known to the professional. Perhaps this was a bad example of that. Or perhaps if Jack had used the same oath before Gabby did, it would have seemed less glaringly out of place?

I really appreciate what you've taught me here. I hope you get a chance to read chapter 9 or 10 and proved your thoughts on how effective or not I was switching narrative POV. I wanted 9 and 10 to be clear in expressing Tina's personality through her word choices, through her interpretation of situations.

 

[Penelope Street]

I was afraid the story would be too long for use here, and that reading through only two chapters would be extremely hard to get into nuances.

A valid concern; longer stories usually get less of a response.

If possible, I'd really like more clarification on interrupting dialogue because there are a lot, a whole lot of places where I could have added interruptions in the dialogue, really a lot of places. But I didn't for two reasons and they are both subjective.
1. As a reader, I dislike interruptions in dialogue and tend to skip them with out conscious thought. Since I don't like it as a reader, I figured I'd treat the reader the way I like to be treated?
2. I'm not a good enough writer to know where and how to break it up. I can't see what I've written only using the black and white that's on the page, unless a lot of time has elapsed; like a week or more.

I'm with you, if it's clear who's speaking, why include a tag? On the other hand, if a tag is needed, my preference is to include it early. The specific dialog is:

"What do you have against Baltimore? I hear it's a nice city. I have a presentation to make and thought you'd like a long weekend away?"

A quick fix might be simply:

"What do you have against Baltimore?" I asked. "I hear..."

Since expressions and gestures are also means of communicating, we can also use these to identify a speaker:

I leaned my head to one side. "What do you have against Baltimore? I hear..."

or, depending on the speaker's mood:

I crossed my arms. "What do you have against Baltimore? I hear..."

Any reason to interrupt the narrative soon afterward to explain the history of an ex-bedroom?

This was an attempt, and perhaps a weak one at best, to reveal a clue about Jack's health.

I missed it being a clue. If you wanted to reveal that Jack wished his children home, it wouldn't be unnatural for him to ask his wife something like, "Do you ever wish our sons were home again?"

Tina successfully resisted the urge to crow on the rooftop that she had been right.

How do we know this? It sure looks like a POV issue.

I'm not sure what you mean?

If Tina resists an urge, then she doesn't actually do anything. If she is doing something, we should see it. If Tina was the narrator, or if the perspective was third person, this wouldn't be an issue, but since Jack is narrating, I couldn't understand how he knows why she's not doing anything.

"Simon says freeze. I'm sorry babe but I have to take this call, I've been expecting it. It won't take long though so you just stay right where you are."

He seems a little weak here. Is that what you had in mind?

Do you mean that the wording I've selected makes Jack seem wimpy, too apologetic, bland; thus making Jack come off as weak, wimpy and bland? If my husband stopped such activity to answer a call, well there wouldn't be enough groveling and apologizing for placing a phone call's importance before his wife, given the stated activity.

In an ordinary situation, I'd agree with you, but considering the nature of this particular game, I thought his response was, yeah, wimpy- which is totally understandable for a man who's recently learned he's dying, so my question really was just that, and not a criticism.

Side note: Although it's just the opposite in real life, when a character in a story has a choice to do the right thing or behave badly- it usually makes for a better tale if they behave badly and have to deal with it.

Which of your stories includes ALS? Such a rare disease and yet two stories posted with ALS as a theme?

My story is not posted here. I too thought it an interesting coincidence.

Understood about the Simon says game being predictable and gratuitous. No defense offered. I assume this is an example of unimaginative writing.

The game isn't really a bad idea, I just thought it went on too long before the phone rang.

"That's fine Mr. Wright. I understand this is all new to you and overwhelming as hell."

The mild profanity at the end struck me as unprofessional. Is that what you had in mind?

It does stick out as not what one would expect from a professional. Sometimes, to build trust and make a connection meaningful enough to render assistance, the professional wall must crack, just a little. But that is wholly dependent on how well the client/patient is known to the professional. Perhaps this was a bad example of that. Or perhaps if Jack had used the same oath before Gabby did, it would have seemed less glaringly out of place?

Yeah, if he'd said it first, then that would be different- I could see how she might be trying to bond with him. There's still nothing wrong in a literary sense with the line- I just wondered what your intentions were.

I hope you get a chance to read chapter 9 or 10 and proved your thoughts on how effective or not I was switching narrative POV.

I'm looking forward to it too. I love first-person, but this situation appears to be tailor-made for third-person, so I'm especially curious to learn why (don't spoil it! ) you made your perspective choices.

 

[GrumpyGamby]

*** nifty conversation box adjuested by moderator ***

I crossed my arms. "What do you have against Baltimore? I hear..."

That was perfect! Wish I'd thought of it!



Since I can't figure out how to make more than one of those nifty conversation boxes I shall revert back to the annoying way of quoting within a thread.

*** nifty conversation box added by moderator ***

If Tina resists an urge, then she doesn't actually do anything. If she is doing something, we should see it. If Tina was the narrator, or if the perspective was third person, this wouldn't be an issue, but since Jack is narrating, I couldn't understand how he knows why she's not doing anything.

You're right, good point.



Penelope Street:
<<<In an ordinary situation, I'd agree with you, but considering the nature of this particular game, I thought his response was, yeah, wimpy- which is totally understandable for a man who's recently learned he's dying, so my question really was just that, and not a criticism.

Side note: Although it's just the opposite in real life, when a character in a story has a choice to do the right thing or behave badly- it usually makes for a better tale if they behave badly and have to deal with it. >>>

Excellent point that I will keep in mind for future writing, but I think what I wrote suits Jack, as I picture him, best. The beginning of the story Jack tells of his early years and feeling like he was pussy whipped. Old habits die hard.


Penelope Street:
My story is not posted here. I too thought it an interesting coincidence.>>>

I would love to read it?

Penelope Street:
<<< I love first-person, but this situation appears to be tailor-made for third-person, so I'm especially curious to learn why (don't spoil it! ) you made your perspective choices.>>

I won't spoil it, but I have to say it never occurred to me to write this in 3rd person. I still can't see how I could get Jack and Tina's story out, as they wished it to be told, in 3rd person.

Which brings up a question of sanity; um, does anyone else have their characters take over the story and kind of assert themselves even when it's contradictory to the original outline?
pleasesayyes pleasesayyes pleasesayyes

 

[Firebrain]

Just dropping by to say that I will get to reading this when my bitch of a chapter decides to finish itself (yes, my characters want to do all kinds of nonsense that they have no business with. I changed the entire second half of the novel to that effect and definitely for the better. Listen to them!).

 

[Penelope Street]

Since I can't figure out how to make more than one of those nifty conversation boxes I shall revert back to the annoying way of quoting within a thread.

I edited the above thread of yours a bit, providing two examples of simple quotes.

"Simon says freeze. I'm sorry babe but I have to take this call, I've been expecting it. It won't take long though so you just stay right where you are."

He seems a little weak here. Is that what you had in mind?

I think what I wrote suits Jack, as I picture him, best. The beginning of the story Jack tells of his early years and feeling like he was pussy whipped. Old habits die hard.

In that case, it's perfect.

...does anyone else have their characters take over the story and kind of assert themselves...

yes, my characters want to do all kinds of nonsense that they have no business with. I changed the entire second half of the novel to that effect and definitely for the better. Listen to them!

Yes, it's a common experience and I agree with Firebrain, let your characters have the reins.

 

[GrumpyGamby]

I edited the above thread of yours a bit, providing two examples of simple quotes.

In that case, it's perfect.

Yes, it's a common experience and I agree with Firebrain, let your characters have the reins.

Show off.

Thanks for the reassurance from both you and Firebrain. At least I'm in good company if the DSMV gets revised to include personalities asserting themselves in written form only.

Easily Amused Gamby

 

[Penelope Street]

Ok, I read the rest. It's kinda rough, like a draft, and if you think of it like that it's not bad. With a really thorough editing, I think it could make a fine story. By thorough editing, I mean revisiting each scene and deciding what it adds to the story. If a story can do with out a scene, remove it. Then, read each scene you chose to keep and decide what sentences, or maybe entire paragraphs, the scene doesn't really need.

Then there's the exposition, which is best used sparingly, mostly between scenes. For example:

I must have dozed off at some point because about an hour later, I had heard Tina arguing with Josh about staying at least on the same floor as me, since my voice no longer carried that far. I heard her crying, I think. Then I heard something bang. I was just wondering if I should call Frank when they both came down the stairs. Josh looking sour and put upon was becoming his normal look.

Tina looked... worried? She stood there in the family room, looking right at for a long time. I got the feeling she wanted to say something but she didn't. That was odd, I thought. For the longest time I had only seen her look tired and weary. Now she just looked worried. What the hell was going on I wondered?

Tina came back into the family room and told me she was going out and Josh would be home if I needed anything.

Notice how we don't hear anyone's words or actually see the worried or sour looks? This is classic telling instead of showing and, while less wordy, the style tends to hinder a reader's ability to share the character's experience. If it's worth including in a story, it's usually best to include it in the form of action rather than exposition.

Consider the energy of the following piece:

"Josh, bring me the piss bottle please."

He ignored me.

"Josh, I need to take a piss. Bring me the bottle please."

Again, he ignored me. So I threw the remote control at him. When it went nowhere near him but landed by the fireplace and cracked into several pieces, I believe he became concerned. That got his attention. How would he ever change the channel now?

"You know if you're not going to help me out, just say so." He turned away from me to glare daggers at the TV. "What? You're waiting for me to piss my pants? That isn't going to happen. Now please get up and get me the piss bottle. NOW, Josh!"

It's not just that the second section is more emotionally charged, it's just plain written better.

Very minor technical issue: Josh turning away to stare at the TV is a response, even if not a spoken one, so I think that sentence deserves it's own paragraph.

"So what? You keep saying you can handle this. So, handle it." Jack had essentially dismissed me with that comment.

Another example of extraneous explaining- which, when you think about it, is also telling instead of showing- or in this case, telling in addition to showing.

Because I am working on another story that also involves changing the voice of the narration, I really need feedback, pointers and suggestions for improvement on that particular point.

Considering Tina's voice, I can see how third-person perspective wouldn't really have worked. Her voice feels distinct from Jack's; good job there. I'm not aware of any technique for accomplishing this beyond the aforementioned "Sybil Method".

I'm not quite convinced sticking with one narrator, either one, throughout the story couldn't also have worked, though naturally it would be a different tale. It all depends on what you wished to accomplish.

 

[Penelope Street]

Ok, I read the rest. It's kinda rough, like a draft, and if you think of it like that it's not bad. With a really thorough editing, I think it could make a fine story. By thorough editing, I mean revisiting each scene and deciding what it adds to the story. If a story can do without a scene, remove it. Then, read each scene you chose to keep and decide what sentences, or maybe entire paragraphs, the scene doesn't really need.

Then there's the exposition, which is best used sparingly, mostly between scenes. For example:

I must have dozed off at some point because about an hour later, I had heard Tina arguing with Josh about staying at least on the same floor as me, since my voice no longer carried that far. I heard her crying, I think. Then I heard something bang. I was just wondering if I should call Frank when they both came down the stairs. Josh looking sour and put upon was becoming his normal look.

Tina looked... worried? She stood there in the family room, looking right at for a long time. I got the feeling she wanted to say something but she didn't. That was odd, I thought. For the longest time I had only seen her look tired and weary. Now she just looked worried. What the hell was going on I wondered?

Tina came back into the family room and told me she was going out and Josh would be home if I needed anything.

Notice how we don't hear anyone's words or actually see the worried or sour looks? This is classic telling instead of showing and, while less wordy, the style tends to hinder a reader's ability to share the character's experience. If it's worth including in a story, it's usually best to include it in the form of action rather than exposition.

Compare the blandness above with the energy of the following piece:

"Josh, bring me the piss bottle please."

He ignored me.

"Josh, I need to take a piss. Bring me the bottle please."

Again, he ignored me. So I threw the remote control at him. When it went nowhere near him but landed by the fireplace and cracked into several pieces, I believe he became concerned. That got his attention. How would he ever change the channel now?

"You know if you're not going to help me out, just say so." He turned away from me to glare daggers at the TV. "What? You're waiting for me to piss my pants? That isn't going to happen. Now please get up and get me the piss bottle. NOW, Josh!"

It's not just that the second section is more emotionally charged, it's just plain written better.

Very minor technical issue: Josh turning away to stare at the TV is a response, even if not a spoken one, so I think that sentence deserves it's own paragraph.

"So what? You keep saying you can handle this. So, handle it." Jack had essentially dismissed me with that comment.

Another example of extraneous explaining- which, when you think about it, is also telling instead of showing- or in this case, telling in addition to showing.

Because I am working on another story that also involves changing the voice of the narration, I really need feedback, pointers and suggestions for improvement on that particular point.

Considering Tina's voice, I can see how third-person perspective wouldn't really have worked. Her voice feels distinct from Jack's; good job there. I'm not aware of any technique for accomplishing this beyond the aforementioned "Sybil Method".

I'm not quite convinced sticking with one narrator, either one, throughout the story couldn't also have worked, though naturally the result would be a different tale. It all depends on what you wished to accomplish.

 

[GrumpyGamby]

Ok, I read the rest. It's kinda rough, like a draft, and if you think of it like that it's not bad. With a really thorough editing, I think it could make a fine story. By thorough editing, I mean revisiting each scene and deciding what it adds to the story. If a story can do without a scene, remove it. Then, read each scene you chose to keep and decide what sentences, or maybe entire paragraphs, the scene doesn't really need.

That is a tall order indeed. But the point you raise is an important one. What to keep, what to toss, what to fold differently... I hate cleaning out the closet!

If it's worth including in a story, it's usually best to include it in the form of action rather than exposition.

That makes self editing much simpler to grasp. Thanks!

Very minor technical issue: Josh turning away to stare at the TV is a response, even if not a spoken one, so I think that sentence deserves it's own paragraph.

Yup, quite right.

Another example of extraneous explaining- which, when you think about it, is also telling instead of showing- or in this case, telling in addition to showing.

This is all good stuff for me to learn. It's one thing to read about these techniques, but putting them into practice is entirely different.

Considering Tina's voice, I can see how third-person perspective wouldn't really have worked. Her voice feels distinct from Jack's; good job there. I'm not aware of any technique for accomplishing this beyond the aforementioned "Sybil Method".

It all depends on what you wished to accomplish.

Umm, talk about Sybil...

When I began writing this story, I wanted to show the long term damage from childhood sexual abuse, how it affects intimate relationship, how that affects relationships in general and the all important healing. But I wanted to show this from the husbands perplexed perspective. So I wanted the focus to be on Tina and what she was doing and going through, but through her husband's eyes.

Half way through this story, I had another story I wanted to write. A completely erotic story about sex with the man disabled. So, without meaning to, I combined the two plot lines. I could not think of a way to demonstrate Jack's understanding or knowledge of what Tina was going through towards the end, so I chose to switch narrative voices. I suppose if I'd chosen a different ailment it might have worked easier. But ALS was on my mind, so that's what came out.

And may I say hooray to the old broad for learning how to make nifty boxes!

 

[Penelope Street]

That is a tall order indeed. But the point you raise is an important one. What to keep, what to toss, what to fold differently... I hate cleaning out the closet!

It's always tough to remove a portion of a story that you worked hard on.

When I began writing this story, I wanted to show the long term damage from childhood sexual abuse, how it affects intimate relationship, how that affects relationships in general and the all important healing. But I wanted to show this from the husbands perplexed perspective. So I wanted the focus to be on Tina and what she was doing and going through, but through her husband's eyes.

Half way through this story, I had another story I wanted to write. A completely erotic story about sex with the man disabled. So, without meaning to, I combined the two plot lines. I could not think of a way to demonstrate Jack's understanding or knowledge of what Tina was going through towards the end, so I chose to switch narrative voices. I suppose if I'd chosen a different ailment it might have worked easier. But ALS was on my mind, so that's what came out.

So why didn't you just write two stories?

And may I say hooray to the old broad for learning how to make nifty boxes!

Show off.