Story Discussion: 19th Feb, 2008 - "The Masterton Covenant" by manyeyedhydra

[manyeyedhydra]

Story Discussion: 19th Feb, 2008 - "The Masterton Covenant" by manyeyedhydra

Hi,

I believe I'm up again as we've reached the end of the queue. Penny suggested I put up the story I mentioned in the "I/you" thread: "The Masterton Covenent."

It's another horror tale, but I think the discussion is more about the narrative POV.

Anyway, enjoy.

 

[manyeyedhydra]

the story:
http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=335457

 

[manyeyedhydra]

If I remember correctly the original thread was discussing the problems of stories in the first or second person ("I" and "You"). The biggest being that when you talk about "My cock entered her tight pussy"/"His cock penetrated my tight pussy" you lose the half of the audience that doesn't have a cock / pussy. I think this argument is one that tends to come up quite frequently and people have differing opinions.

Most of the time I use the 3rd person viewpoint. Sometimes I'll use the 1st person if i think the story calls for it. I'm not sure it's possible to use the 2nd person but I'm happy if someone can prove me wrong.

I tried to be sneaky with this story so the first question is:

Who is the old man telling the tale to? (I'll elaborate on this later)

The story is supposed to be erotic horror. Does it correctly balance arousal with fear?

Does the ending deliver the right punch / make sense?

And finally, please feel free to make any suggestions / comments on both the story and language. This was the third story I put up on Lit so it's probably not as polished as it could be.

thanks for reading
Many-Eyed Hydra

 

[jomar]

I'll try to weigh in tomorrow MEH.

 

[Penelope Street]

Hi Hydra,

Who is the old man telling the tale to?

I think he's telling the inner story to an anonymous character who is meant to be the reader's surrogate. Technically I believe the perspective is still third-person, but the effect is what most try to achieve with second-person, sans the awkwardness. I really enjoyed the unique manner in which this tale is related- but it still wouldn't work without a good story.

The story is supposed to be erotic horror. Does it correctly balance arousal with fear?

Ok, it wasn't really arousing or scary, but it's plenty creepy and the sex is a meaningful plot ingredient, which is more important than titillation.

Does the ending deliver the right punch / make sense?

I love the ending. It's haunting more than frightening, and I mean that in a good way. So, yes, perfect 'punch'.

And finally, please feel free to make any suggestions / comments on both the story and language. This was the third story I put up on Lit so it's probably not as polished as it could be.

I think it's a great little story, one of the best I've read of this length, so I don't have any real suggestions for improvement.

Remember when we were discussing 'Succubus for Christmas' and you said something about spending all your money on the monster and not leaving any for the characters? Well, you certainly didn't here! The old man's lingering longing and accompanying dread really comes through. That's really the story, isn't it? I adore the moment when she vomits on his penis- and he enjoys it! Not only is it a unique erotic moment, but it just says so much about the unnatural, grotesque essence of their relationship.


Thanks for sharing your story.

Take Care,
Penny

 

[mjl2010]

Who is the old man telling the tale to? (I'll elaborate on this later)

The character the old man is speaking to is meant to be the reader I think. By using the present tense, you fit this in really well and made it seem a little more real, although I just can't imagine myself getting into THAT much trouble LOL.

The story is supposed to be erotic horror. Does it correctly balance arousal with fear?

I didn't find the story all that horrifying or fear inspiring, but then, few things frighten me much. Well, angry women wielding frying pans... I'd have to say the sexual description was a bit on a clinical side. One thing I found disturbing (in the horror sense) was the whole clinical / detached style of the old man describing what happened during his encounter.

Does the ending deliver the right punch / make sense?

The ending makes sense. The lingering question with me was, how did the character seeking out the old man know to come to him? And the old man KNEW the character he spoke to, would go back and give up that final, life draining orgasm. And yet he still gave the character the convanent, knowing it would mean his life. When you think about it, that is horror. To allow another to do something that will end his life and cost him his soul. That's horror.

And finally, please feel free to make any suggestions / comments on both the story and language. This was the third story I put up on Lit so it's probably not as polished as it could be.

I found myself drawn into the story. Anytime a story is told as by a storyteller, I enjoy it if it's well done. This was pretty good. I'm not sure you could have improved much on the sex without ruining the story. I gave you a five vote and a PC. I really liked the fact that sex was the basis of the plot, not the reason for it. That was really good. (I hope that made sense)

MJL

 

[manyeyedhydra]

Thanks for the comments.

I think he's telling the inner story to an anonymous character who is meant to be the reader's surrogate. Technically I believe the perspective is still third-person, but the effect is what most try to achieve with second-person, sans the awkwardness. I really enjoyed the unique manner in which this tale is related- but it still wouldn't work without a good story.

The character the old man is speaking to is meant to be the reader I think. By using the present tense, you fit this in really well and made it seem a little more real, although I just can't imagine myself getting into THAT much trouble LOL.

Two comments, two different views. Perfect!

This was exactly what I was hoping for. At one point while writing the story I was tempted to slip into the second person with something like... "He doesn’t bother to turn to you" but I don't like using that POV at all as I find it awkward. I wanted to leave it ambiguous who the old man was talking to. This way the reader can either imagine they're being told the story directly or can imagine that the story is being told to an unspecified character 'off camera'. I'm hoping that way it keeps everyone immersed in the story.

Ok, it wasn't really arousing or scary, but it's plenty creepy and the sex is a meaningful plot ingredient, which is more important than titillation.

I didn't find the story all that horrifying or fear inspiring, but then, few things frighten me much. Well, angry women wielding frying pans... I'd have to say the sexual description was a bit on a clinical side. One thing I found disturbing (in the horror sense) was the whole clinical / detached style of the old man describing what happened during his encounter.

Trade offs between story and sex and horror and sex. I'm guessing they work against each other so if you push one up the other has to go down.

The ending makes sense. The lingering question with me was, how did the character seeking out the old man know to come to him? And the old man KNEW the character he spoke to, would go back and give up that final, life draining orgasm. And yet he still gave the character the convanent, knowing it would mean his life. When you think about it, that is horror. To allow another to do something that will end his life and cost him his soul. That's horror.

I'm glad you both liked the ending. It still nags at me that I don't think I nailed it properly.

I wanted to get across that the old man had his ultimate trump card in the Covenant but in the end the real thing he should have been afraid of was himself rather than the succubus. After being given a taste he wanted the whole thing and for that to happen he had to give up his protection. The succubus could have taken all of him the second time around, but she sent him back because she knew other victims would follow his example and he would make it easy for them to find her.

I wanted the old man to have that world-weary quality about him. Every one who comes to him thinks they know better, but he knows the real outcome, that ultimately their own bodies will betray them.

I'm not sure I got that across properly (or even if the last two paragraphs got my thoughts across properly )

Thanks for reading and commenting.

It seems a little quiet this time around. I'm not sure whether I should take that as a good sign, because people haven't found much to criticize, or as a bad sign, because my creepy horror tendencies have worn out my welcome

Many-Eyed Hydra

 

[jomar]

It seems a little quiet this time around. I'm not sure whether I should take that as a good sign, because people haven't found much to criticize, or as a bad sign, because my creepy horror tendencies have worn out my welcome

Many-Eyed Hydra

I'm still on the way, Hydra! Real life, including a drowned laptop... Soon, very soon, don't be afraid, not at all, not even if your alone at night when I knock...and give you my...opinion.

 

[manyeyedhydra]

I'm still on the way, Hydra! Real life, including a drowned laptop... Soon, very soon, don't be afraid, not at all, not even if your alone at night when I knock...and give you my...opinion.

Heh heh, for some reason I had visions of one of those creepy J-Horror girls knocking on the door at midnight.

"You switched tenses."

"Noooooooooo."

 

[Penelope Street]

I wanted to get across that the old man had his ultimate trump card in the Covenant but in the end the real thing he should have been afraid of was himself rather than the succubus. After being given a taste he wanted the whole thing and for that to happen he had to give up his protection. The succubus could have taken all of him the second time around, but she sent him back because she knew other victims would follow his example and he would make it easy for them to find her.

I don't understand what it is you're fretting about with the ending. The subtlety really worked for me, especially since you didn't actually say why the old man shares his secret.

One thing I found disturbing (in the horror sense) was the whole clinical / detached style of the old man describing what happened during his encounter.

I know! Doesn’t that delivery say how many times he's played this event over and over in his mind- or maybe even related the tale? To me, he comes across like a remorseful addict- and that's totally appropriate, isn't it?

It seems a little quiet this time around. I'm not sure whether I should take that as a good sign, because people haven't found much to criticize, or as a bad sign, because my creepy horror tendencies have worn out my welcome.

I'm certain the slow response has nothing to do with you wearing out your welcome, but if we need to be nitpicky to find something to chat about, I did have to read the following section several times because I couldn't understand how he could sit with the fire behind him and still stare into the flames: He is sitting at the back of the club, still wrapped in a shawl despite the roaring fire behind him. He doesn't bother to turn, instead staring into the flickering flames as he sips a glass of brandy.

 

[manyeyedhydra]

I'm certain the slow response has nothing to do with you wearing out your welcome, but if we need to be nitpicky to find something to chat about, I did have to read the following section several times because I couldn't understand how he could sit with the fire behind him and still stare into the flames: He is sitting at the back of the club, still wrapped in a shawl despite the roaring fire behind him. He doesn't bother to turn, instead staring into the flickering flames as he sips a glass of brandy.

lol, yes, that is indeed poor

I can only think I was trying to describe the position of the fire relative to the reader/surrogate. They're behind the old man, but the fire is behind the old man in relation to them.

I think.

It's very awkward though and not something you want in that all important first paragraph that's supposed to make people want to read the next.

I should have probably picked a better word than 'behind'. 'beyond' maybe?

 

[Penelope Street]

I should have probably picked a better word than 'behind'. 'beyond' maybe?

Beyond is what I eventually decided you meant.

It's very awkward though and not something you want in that all important first paragraph that's supposed to make people want to read the next.

That's what you get for fretting over the ending.

 

[jomar]

Finally! Thanks for your patience. I haven't looked at others comments yet.

I tried to be sneaky with this story so the first question is:

Who is the old man telling the tale to? (I'll elaborate on this later)

Well, I figured he was talking to someone like himself when he was younger. But your question makes me wonder if that's right.

The story is supposed to be erotic horror. Does it correctly balance arousal with fear?

For me is was not fear, but threat. The covenant was airtight so that diminished the fear of him dying, or even revoking the covenant. But you did a nice job with the threat and tension.

Does the ending deliver the right punch / make sense?

I don't know about punch, but I liked it. It made me think of the succubus using humans as toys, a sort of loophole in the covenant - keeping them going back and sucking the life out of them over a long time.

And finally, please feel free to make any suggestions / comments on both the story and language. This was the third story I put up on Lit so it's probably not as polished as it could be.

thanks for reading
Many-Eyed Hydra

What got me thinking that maybe the old man was in hell and talking to himself was the opening: the fire was behind him yet he stared into flickering flames, said he'd seen that look before yet wasn't looking at anybody.

Nice story, Hydra. Now I'm off to read the other comments.

 

[jomar]

...I put up the story I mentioned in the "I/you" thread: "The Masterton Covenent." It's another horror tale, but I think the discussion is more about the narrative POV. Most of the time I use the 3rd person viewpoint. Sometimes I'll use the 1st person if i think the story calls for it. I'm not sure it's possible to use the 2nd person but I'm happy if someone can prove me wrong.

I think he's telling the inner story to an anonymous character who is meant to be the reader's surrogate. Technically I believe the perspective is still third-person, but the effect is what most try to achieve with second-person, sans the awkwardness. I really enjoyed the unique manner in which this tale is related- but it still wouldn't work without a good story.

The character the old man is speaking to is meant to be the reader I think. By using the present tense, you fit this in really well and made it seem a little more real, although I just can't imagine myself getting into THAT much trouble LOL.

Okay, so I should have paid more attention to the Hydra's POV comments. I liked the way you handled it. Nicely done.

...I did have to read the following section several times because I couldn't understand how he could sit with the fire behind him and still stare into the flames: He is sitting at the back of the club, still wrapped in a shawl despite the roaring fire behind him. He doesn't bother to turn, instead staring into the flickering flames as he sips a glass of brandy.

I had to reread this too. In fact, it got me wondering if the old man ended up in hell muttering to himself.

 

[manyeyedhydra]

Thanks for the comments. Glad you liked the tale

Well, I figured he was talking to someone like himself when he was younger. But your question makes me wonder if that's right.

Nearly all interpretations are correct for this one. I deliberately left it vague and I'm glad that appears to have worked. (apart from the fire 'behind' thing )

I don't know about punch, but I liked it. It made me think of the succubus using humans as toys, a sort of loophole in the covenant - keeping them going back and sucking the life out of them over a long time.

However different interpretations on the ending are a failure on my part I think. I got in the punch, but it only knocked the reader back to the ropes instead of putting them down

The covenant is infallible, but the humans reading it less so. They can't resist finding out what it would be like without protection and then the succubus gets them. I was trying to draw an analogy with all the stupid dumb stuff we end up doing even though we know it's really bad for us

Maybe it's better sometimes to leave things open and allow people to make their own conclusions rather than trying to force a point too hard though. I tend to prefer the nice clean endings unless I want to deliberately unsettle people.

 

[Penelope Street]

In fact, it got me wondering if the old man ended up in hell muttering to himself.

I didn't consider the possibility, but I kinda like it, especially since the person to whom the old man speaks never responds. But would he have to be in hell?

The covenant is infallible, but the humans reading it less so. They can't resist finding out what it would be like without protection and then the succubus gets them. I was trying to draw an analogy with all the stupid dumb stuff we end up doing even though we know it's really bad for us.

Ok, I didn't quite relate demonic intercourse sans covenant to, say, smoking, but the bit about the covenant protecting the men from the demon but not from themselves was pretty clear. When Jomar mentioned a 'loophole in the covenant', I don't think he meant that the alleged loophole directly empowered the demon.

However different interpretations on the ending are a failure on my part I think. I got in the punch, but it only knocked the reader back to the ropes instead of putting them down.

I guess whether the ending works the way you intended depends on what you mean by "putting them down".

 

[jomar]

I didn't consider the possibility, but I kinda like it, especially since the person to whom the old man speaks never responds. But would he have to be in hell?

Well, the fire, you know. I guess he could have been at the men's club with no one paying him any mind. Or in the insane asylum.

Ok, I didn't quite relate demonic intercourse sans covenant to, say, smoking, but the bit about the covenant protecting the men from the demon but not from themselves was pretty clear. When Jomar mentioned a 'loophole in the covenant', I don't think he meant that the alleged loophole directly empowered the demon.

Correct. I meant it as the demon recognizing her drug-like lure and that men couldn't help themselves from returning to have the life force sucked out of them more and more over time until they were a shell of themselves, and thereby 'working around' the infallibility of the covenant.

 

[manyeyedhydra]

I pictured the old man at one of those old fashioned men's type clubs. I wanted to portray him as an old timer that no one really likes but everyone is slightly afraid of.

In hell is an interesting interpretation, but I suppose I left the setting and the audience ambiguous enough that's it's a possibility. Not one I'd thought of to be honest

Penny's also right that this probably isn't the kind of story where I should be looking to "put the reader down" for the count so to speak. It's more a sense of inevitability that the same mistake is going to be made over and over rather than a sharp crunchy ending.

 

[jomar]

I pictured the old man at one of those old fashioned men's type clubs. I wanted to portray him as an old timer that no one really likes but everyone is slightly afraid of.

I bet no one wants him in their foursome.

In hell is an interesting interpretation, but I suppose I left the setting and the audience ambiguous enough that's it's a possibility. Not one I'd thought of to be honest

It could be very ambiguous. I like.

Penny's also right that this probably isn't the kind of story where I should be looking to "put the reader down" for the count so to speak. It's more a sense of inevitability that the same mistake is going to be made over and over rather than a sharp crunchy ending.

Personally, I really like the ending suggesting that the pattern will be repeated over and over. It's a creepy victory for the demon despite the covenant - nice and dark.

 

[WearMeWell]

Manyeyedhydra, *et.al,

If I may beg your patience... *Deep curtsey. I am quite new to actually interacting intelligably here on Lit, and still do not know how to do many things; like multiple quote, for example. That said, if you will forgive my ignorance and probable ineptitude, i will begin.


Your story is the first one I have read on Lit., and I enjoyed it very much. I 'heard' this story in my head; nearly perfectly imbibed. There was no abiguity to the tone, flow or timbre as the words transformed into speech and motion in my mind. Thank you for that, and for the story. *Smile~ *Deep curtsey, head lowered slightly*

Now, to the meat. *slow smile~

"Who is the old man telling the tale to?"

It's ambiguous; and deliciously so. It allows you to be the one spoken to, or you to be the one speaking. I absolutely adored this fact. (*forgive me the shameless gushing.)

"Does it correctly balance arousal with fear?"

Not particularly; BUT the delicious suspense and threat (and periods of, dread?) pulled me through the story, wanting. (and in my book, that counts for quite alot.) I found myself doing the "arousing/disgusting/dread/want" tango. (cha-cha?) *smile~


"... are the avatars for the sin of lust." (how cool is that line.)*oh, forgive me. *clears throat softly and sobers a bit*

"Does the ending deliver the right punch/make sense?"

Well, that depends on what you were going for, but it suited me just fine.(though we have established my (probable) bias )

What I picked up was matter of fact dread/anticipation, holding a nearly bittersweet edge.


*pausing, thoughts tumbling around..*

Ok, I guess that's it for now. Thank you for the story. *Smile~

*curtsey,
WMW~

*goes back to enjoy the story again *Smile~

 

[manyeyedhydra]

Manyeyedhydra, *et.al,

If I may beg your patience... *Deep curtsey. I am quite new to actually interacting intelligably here on Lit, and still do not know how to do many things; like multiple quote, for example. That said, if you will forgive my ignorance and probable ineptitude, i will begin.

Hiya, thanks for the comments. Glad you could join us.

Not particularly; BUT the delicious suspense and threat (and periods of, dread?) pulled me through the story, wanting. (and in my book, that counts for quite alot.) I found myself doing the "arousing/disgusting/dread/want" tango. (cha-cha?) *smile~

Excellent. That's normally exactly what I'm aiming for. Anything to swirl the reader around a little so they're caught between... oh yeaaah and... Eeek, no thanks.

If i can get them to come back to... hmm, maybe... then it's even better.

Glad you liked the story and thanks for the comments.

Many-Eyed Hydra

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Coming in here late (been busy). Sorry I missed this while it was fresh...

I thought this was an excellent little story, but in the end, it promises more than it can possibly deliver. It says it's going to describe to us the Best Sex In The World. Not just Some of The Best, but The Best, and that's an impossible order to fill. No matter what the succubus looks like, she won't be beautiful enough, and no matter how the sex is described, it won't be good enough.

The story started with some really exciting ideas. The business about the demons on another plane being bound by covenants and relating to humans as farmers relate to their herds was fascinating, and so was the idea about the Masterson equations. They made me think we were going to get a really fresh take on the succubus myth, that maybe it would be about more than physical sex this time, because inside we all know that sex is about much more than friction and pussy mechanics. I know that when I think about great sex, the last thing I think about is what kind of tricks her pussy can do. I';d like to see a succubus who knows how to respond to her lover. That would be a succubus I'd be interested in, and I was kind of hoping we'd get a more psychological take on the succ, a creature who has more insight into our psychological need for sex and closeness, who knows the soul of our sexuality, you know?

She was good, I mean. But I've seen her before. A lot.

Honestly, I was a little baffled by what happened at the end too. I was expecting the old man to tell us he was only 27 or something. So what happened? She just let him go and there he was? And he was giving the covenant to the reader? I'm a sloppy reader. I think I missed something.

Part of the problem for me is, see, sex doesn't work like that for me. Sex in the abstract is not that big a deal for me. I might know someone I'd risk my life to fuck, but I wouldn't risk my life for "the world's greatest fuck" in the abstract. Sex just doesn't feel that damned good in the abstract. You can't separate the pleasure from the person. I know, I'm being silly and nitpicky, but I'm dancing around some attitude this story has toward sex that bothers me.

I guess that's it: the impersonal attitude. Sex as a thing independent of the people involved. It's alienating and all these people seem damned. Well, I guess they are anyhow, aren't they? Fuck around with demons and that's what you get. (Ah, get over it, Mab. It's only a story.)

And a very well-done one too. No, I didn't find it horrifying, but I did find it very imaginative and nicely described, especially when it came to the death-by-orgasm parts. I could believe those. That part where she breathes in his mouth and you describe her breath sweeping up all those loose parts in his body and sweeping them down to his balls - brilliant!

The second person thing didn't bother me at all, mainly because his narration was really in first person, and I overcame my distaste for first person long ago and now it's my strongest writing voice. And the old man was talking to the reader, of course, who was looking to get laid by the succubus with the educated pussy. God knows why.

There's some fine writing in here, Hydra. Nice atmospherics at the start, good pacing. I would have liked to seen more of the Succ's boudoir myself. That might have been fun (no kinky toys? No magic fingers?) and nice tone throughout. All in all, very nicely done.

 

[manyeyedhydra]

Hey, thanks Dr M, good to hear from you.

Honestly, I was a little baffled by what happened at the end too. I was expecting the old man to tell us he was only 27 or something. So what happened? She just let him go and there he was? And he was giving the covenant to the reader? I'm a sloppy reader. I think I missed something.

It's the intended haymaker that ended up being a little jab.

I wanted to make a point about people often being their own worst enemy. The covenant protects them perfectly from the demon, but offers them no protection from themselves. In their mind perfect sex won't be enough. At some point they're going to want to take away the safety net.

The succubus worked this out and spared him when he returned to her. It's good for her to have the covenant available for anyone that wants it. She can't do anything when it's used on her, but human nature means they're going to come back to seek out that little bit extra and that's when she gets another tasty meal.

I think you're right on describing the perfect sex thing. I'm always going to be doomed to failure on that one.

Shame on me. I hadn't really considered the psychological options. I'd been thinking too much of describing the physicalities of death-by-orgasm to succubi in most of my stories. There's so much fun that could be had if they really got inside a victim's head as well. There's a whole new scope for mayhem to consider there!

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Your story made me start thinking of just how many types of succubi there might be. Certainly there's the physical type who gets to us with her physical desirability - her beauty and her educated pussy - like the one in this story, but might there be other kinds? Might there be like an emotional succubus, a female who you just feelyou have to have sex with and can't leave and she drains you and drowns you in her very need for you?

We know about psychic succubi, although we usually call them psychic vampires, people who just glom onto our spirits and seem to suck the life from us, taking over our likes and dislikes.

There should be a spiritual succubus too, who takes over our spiritual nature, our higher loving nature. That one would be fascinating...