Story Discussion 06th November 2009. "Elizabeth's Second Day" by Mikeaday

[mikeaday]

This is the second chapter of a story i did for a member of the site. i would like feedback on writing style or places im going wrong.

This story is in the non-consent catagory

the link is http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=422578&page=1

hope this is done properly Penny if not let me know

 

[Penelope Street]

hope this is done properly Penny if not let me know

That's fine.

 

[driphoney]

I'm not sure I'm up to the task of addressing your concerns, but I'll give it my amateur go. I made my own attempt at rougher sex, though it wasn't exactly non-consent, and I found it hard to do. I do enjoy the occasional non-con and can really only tell you what I think as reader. I do think it's a very hard genre to pull-off successfully, because it has to be convincing and hot, all the while describing acts that would probably in real life leave us cold and disgusted.

To start off, your first sentence brought me up short for some reason. I read it and then I paused. Can you actually enjoy sleep? I mean, you enjoy getting to sleep. You enjoy being rested. You might enjoy your dreams. But, don't you have to be conscious to enjoy something? Maybe I'm just weird. Yep, that's probably the real issue here.

The next thing that brought me up short was that you have small punctuation typo. Your first 3 lines of dialogue do not have commas. Here's what I mean:

"Go away, I'm tired, I'm not going today" grumbled Elizabeth from under her duvet.

There needs to be a comma just after the word 'today'. You don't have this problem for the rest of the story, but some might find it so disconcerting that they'll stop reading before they ever get started. Crazy, but true.

Another small thing was her fixation with her clothes and your special detail about her non-matching panties and bra. I thought the underthings were maybe going to end up being significant, but later when it was mentioned, it only added to the unbelievability of the story. Would a man who is basically raping a girl care if her undies matched? Would she really be embarrassed by it at that point?

Unbelievability. I guess that is my overall problem with the story. You start out with the girl and her mom, and that was so well done that I was, frankly, surprised when I got to the scene with the reverend. His actions and her reactions didn't seem real to me. I felt like I was reading someone's fantasy and not a story.

Having two separate non-con scenes back-to-back was also hard for me to accept as a reader. I know that writers write all sorts of crazy things, but somehow the trick is figuring out how to make them convincing. It will take a real writer/literary-type to explain how to do that, I'm afraid. I'm just a hack.

The last thing is the heat of the sex. Writing it is hard for a lot of us, myself included. There are different types of readers, and I don't know how males who have fantasies about non-con like their smut. This style might work for them, but for me, it didn't. The girl seems to be neither very upset over having sex forced on her, nor does it really turn her on. She's just his tool. I'm a female reader, maybe I'm crazy, but if your female character doesn't get turned on, how will I? Granted, that might not be your motivation, but folks come here to get turned on, and if they don't, the votes will probably reflect it.

One thing I found interesting. The girl appears to be a minor, and she has sex forced onto her that she doesn't enjoy. I thought those were big Lit no-no's. Did I miss something?

I hope there was something helpful in my ramblings. Thanks for sharing.

dh

 

[jacks4u]

Hey, Mike (is this right?)

Thanks for sharing your story with us, and for giving us an opportunity to comment and perhaps help you grow as an author.

Even though I don't normally read non-consent stories, I did enjoy this one somewhat.

I'll start with your request, at the top re: 'keywords'. I'm not sure what you were trying for here, possibly the site editors got this wrong, or left out something. No big deal, your story stands on it's own, without the need for a Glossary, and you can safely edit that part out.

I was a little put off with that request. Here I was at the beginning of the story, and you asked me to go to the end, or the bottom of the page, whatever. In printed media, it's easy to turn to the back page or so, But with Literotica's long-long pages, it's not as easy to navigate to the bottom of a page, or 'turn the page' and wait for it to load.

Some places, you tell us what's going on, like here:

Elizabeth was enjoying her sleep when her mother burst in the door.

...

"No, I'm tired, leave me alone" replied Elizabeth still tucked cozily under her covers. She tried to get back to sleep but she heard her mother coming towards her.

She locked her feet into the duvet keeping it planted on the bed. She knew her mother would try to take the covers off her. It wouldn't be the first time, especially on a Sunday morning.

She felt a weak tug at first and when her mother figured out what Elizabeth was doing, she tugged the blanket harder. Elizabeth knew her mother wouldn't give up and she wouldn't be able to get back to sleep anyway.

She still put up some resistance not wanting to surrender the warmth any sooner than she had to. Eventually she gave up and let her mother tug the blanket off her. She flopped back onto the bed again.​

as a reader, I'm trying to picture the scene, in my mind, that you've painted with the words you've written. When you tell the reader what's going on, rather than show their mind's eye the scene, it's like viewing a dvd in fast forward. I get just the idea of the scene without the detail. Was she wrapped all cozy-warm? or were body parts sticking out of the crumpled covers. Was her slumber deep and satisfying, or light and fitful? Did she awaken with a start as the sound of the door startled her into wakefulness?

Elizabeth woke with a start, at the sound of her bedroom door flying open. Reality came flooding into her mind. Oh, Mother. Gawd, Sunday morning. Church. "No, I'm tired, leave me alone." Elizabeth rolled over, clutching her blankets close, and scrunching her eyes tighter. "Just a little more sleep," she thought...​

Just an example, and probably not a very good one, at that.

And here:

She cleaned herself as thoroughly as possible, wanting to cleanse herself after last night adventures.

...

While searching she spotted the dress she wore last night. She had worked so hard for it, but she had done so much in it, that she wasn't sure when she would be able to wear it again...if ever.​

I found this awkward, and had to re-read it. But then I figured there was something you were hinting at, but wanted to save for later. You can be a little more specific, and still save the details for when they are more appropriate. Perhaps something like this (though again, 'your mileage may vary'):

Frantically, she scrubbed, and scrubbed some more, thinking "My tits, how can they ever be clean again, after what those bastards did to me last night?" And still she scrubbed, finally giving up with a sob, "That'll have to be good enough for now"

...
While searching she spotted the dress she wore last night. She had worked so hard for it, could still picture it bunched around her waist, her tits swaying this way and that. Those bastards... She wasn't sure when she would be able to wear it again...if ever.
​

Then later in your story, It's now evident that her internal conflict is between her actions of the previous night and her religious upbringing. [SOAPBOX]Sad, that. So many people are taught that sex is bad, something to be ashamed of, that their yearnings, needs and desires are somehow unclean, dirty. The markings of scoundrels, despots, and worse. It's at the root of so many people's hangups, insecurities, and perceived shortcomings [/SOAPBOX] But then, the Priest offers himself up as a sacrifice, if she just does those same things to him, God will absolve her of all sin. This part of the story was a little hard to swallow, but then, I'm not a gullible young lady, nor was I ever abused either by clergy or others. I suppose that line <might> work on some...

Though I did enjoy reading your story, I think your plot is a little too far over the top. That Liz was taken advantage of the previous night is no big deal, and I suppose the Priest <might> feel a strong desire for the same, after all, His son was involved in the previous evening's activities. The apple doesn't fall too far from the tree, I can see where the son got his bad manners (non-consensual sex, in whatever form, is just plain bad). And the cop scene - Personally, I didn't get off on it. But then I don't usually read non-consent stories either. I have read non-consent stories that I thought were excellent. but that's the exception rather than the rule.

To summarize: I think you need to show more, tell less. I think also that your plot is a little over the top, with her being abused three times, by various scumbags, in the space of less than 24 hours. But I suppose it <could> happen that way.

Again, I really did enjoy reading your story, and it's got some possibilities. Here in the forums, there are several places where you can polish your writing skills - Writers' Challenges and Exercises , for one. You can also stick around, comment on other's stories right here in SDC. I find this helps me somewhat - to see the mistakes others make (Does that make me a <bad person> to profit from other's mistakes? Well, not monetarily, but with knowledge and understanding of reader's preferences). I know no other ways to grow as an author: 1) Write stories, and get feedback on them. 2) Analyze others stories, and read what others think about those same stories. 3) Hone your writing skills by doing exercises intended for just such a purpose.

Ultimately, It's readers you are writing to, and to know their preferences is paramount. In a creative writing class I took some years back, the number one imperative was to know your audience, and write to them. Ditto with Public Speaking, only more so. The readers at Literotica are so diverse it's difficult to write to everyone.

I hope I've helped, with comments you can use.

Again, Thanks for sharing. and regardless of my comments, I did enjoy your story.


Jacks

 

[mikeaday]

driphoney, this was written for another member of the site which is why it feels like someones fantasy. the girl isnt a minor. i think i mention her age at around 19 in the first part of this story.

thanks for the helpfull info jacks i was at the writers challange before and must try to work more on my skills

 

[driphoney]

driphoney, this was written for another member of the site which is why it feels like someones fantasy. the girl isnt a minor. i think i mention her age at around 19 in the first part of this story.

I'm sorry. I did go back and see if I'd missed it, but obviously overlooked it.

 

[jacks4u]

... thanks for the helpfull info jacks i was at the writers challange before and must try to work more on my skills

Mike, I do think you have the makings of a good story, and hope I wasn't too harsh.

Perhaps some others will comment also, so that you have several different perspectives to work with. Keep at it. write, write, and do it some more. The challenges and the SDC are both here to help writers grow, and learn. write something for one of the contests. Go for it.



Jacks

 

[Penelope Street]

The girl appears to be a minor, and she has sex forced onto her that she doesn't enjoy. I thought those were big Lit no-no's. Did I miss something?

If she's a minor, it's against the rules whether she enjoys it or not.

There is a lesser-known policy against excessive violence, snuff, or abuse of characters in a story; this is a necessarily subjective guideline and I don't think Mike's story even comes close to breaking it. That said, it's been a while since I read the rules, so if I'm unaware of any specific policy about whether or not a character enjoys the events within the story, especially a recent addition, please direct me to it.

 

[Penelope Street]

Hi Mike,

I liked the light conflict in the opening. You show us a simple moment we can all identify with. In the subsequent scenes I read, I knew what your characters wanted, so in that respect your story is well designed.

The trouble I had was that there were so many little things, and big ones too, that defied my ability to suspend disbelief, the most obvious being the moment when Elizabeth sees her preacher naked and expecting her to demonstrate the previous night's events.

It's a clever idea, except I just couldn't believe it.

And then there's the flashback to the previous night's events. She just went home and to bed after all this and was feeling all warm and comfy the next morning, not worrying about anything other than her mother taking her blanket away? I don't think so!

Lastly, am I supposed to accept that this clergyman condones rape? It'd be one thing for a deviant minister to learn about certain sins his son and girlfriend committed and then decide to abuse his authority and get a little sin for himself. It's far more difficult to imagine he's going to react to a serious crime in this manner unless there's something seriously wrong with the entire community.

Of course, if believability wasn't a goal with this story, then it's hardly an issue. When discussing another rape story a few years ago, a reviewer opined that stories of this genre were actually better if they weren't overly realistic- so this may be nothing to worry about at all.

I understand why Honey mentioned Elizabeth acting like a child; early in the story, she seems to have that whole innocent and ignorant thing going on. Though you'd have to adjust a few things, perhaps this story would be easier to get into if set several hundred years ago? In contemporary society, it's hard to imagine anyone Elizabeth's age being so naive and blasé unless she's not all there mentally. If this is the case, some of the earlier interaction with her mother also makes a bit more sense- however I'm not getting the impression this is really what you intended, and I sure hope it isn't.

Honey's also right about the dialog punctuation, except the issue with missing commas occurs more than a few times. Here's a fine posting regarding punctuation that may help:
http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=79818

You did a good job of keeping the point of view straight, but it still wavers in a few places, like here: Elizabeth got out of the pool and headed back towards the office to get changed. David followed behind her, admiring the view. When they had reached the office safely David gave her a towel to dry off.

Jacks' advice about showing versus telling is absolutely correct. I've nothing to add to his guidance beyond emphasizing its importance.

I differ with Jacks about the little moment when the heroine sees her dress from the previous night. While it's definitely a minor issue, I like the subtler foreshadowing you chose.

Thanks, Mike, for sharing your story with us. For a novice writer, it's a fine effort. It looks as if Jacks, Honey and I agree it stretches the bounds of credibility, but this may be a blessing rather than a curse for those who enjoy this type of tale. Don't be disappointed that no reviewer so far has really gotten into your tale- we aren't part of your target audience, so that's not evidence of any real shortcoming with your premise.

Take Care,
Penny

 

[driphoney]

If she's a minor, it's against the rules whether she enjoys it or not.

There is a lesser-known policy against excessive violence, snuff, or abuse of characters in a story; this is a necessarily subjective guideline and I don't think Mike's story even comes close to breaking it. That said, it's been a while since I read the rules, so if I'm unaware of any specific policy about whether or not a character enjoys the events within the story, especially a recent addition, please direct me to it.

You would know them better than me. It's entirely possible I have it all wrong. It was just my understanding, from what others have mentioned on the boards. I thought that since she was being pressured into sex, but I couldn't detect that she secretly wanted it, or actively encouraged it, that it was rape. And I thought rape wasn't allowed.

I should go read the guidelines.

 

[_Lynn_]

Punctuation, or lack of, caught me right away. This is typical throughout the piece.

"Come on honey its time for church" replied her mother cheerily from the door.

"Come on, honey. It's time for church," replied her mother cheerily from the door.

Come on honey its time for church" replied her mother cheerily from the door.

From the door? Don't you mean doorway?

She cleaned herself as thoroughly as possible, wanting to cleanse herself after last night adventures.

A thesaurus would help prevent repeating words.There are other places with duplication too.

Elizabeth started, realizing how long she had wasted looking for the dress. She grabbed the first pair of panties that she could reach and pulled them on.

I'm thinking started what? Also, the first pair she could reach makes it seem as if they are far away, or up high.

Her pussy was a bit hairy and she had meant to shave it clean that morning. She had meant to shave it that morning, but it was too late now.

And more repetition.

I found the story a bit dry, with not enough in it to keep my attention. There is too much that is unrealistic from the scene with the reverend on. As Penny mentioned, the bit about her going to sleep and then waking with nothing more bothering her than her mother taking her blanket off was way off.

She's forced to have sex with this trooper, who uses his stick in her. Her boyfriend is handcuffed in the car but doesn't even attempt to get loose? Then he sits there watching them with a hard-on? I didn't buy into that at all.

I find it all a bit too far-fetched, even for fiction.

Thanks for putting your story out there for review. I know from experience it's not the easiest thing to do.

 

[jacks4u]

... I differ with Jacks about the little moment when the heroine sees her dress from the previous night. While it's definitely a minor issue, I like the subtler foreshadowing you chose....

Penny, now that you put it that way, It was effective in refocusing my attention on the story. After I read that, the hint at the past, at first I was disappointed there wasn't anything more tangible, then I felt I should read more, just to see if there was more written of the previous evening's activities... Be that as it may, I just don't feel her mental state was accurately portrayed, which is why I thought she <might> freak out at the sight of 'that dress'. But it's only just now that I realize it's really mental state or emotion that my example is trying to show.


Mike, Mental state is so easy to tell, but hard to show, especially extreme mental states - rage, guilt, shame, depression. and others. Here, in your story, I think that's a big issue. It hadn't really been clear to me, until just now. Sure, that particular sequence of events is quite unlikely, but more than that, Elizabeth should have some intense emotional reactions somewhere along the way - If not at recalling the previous evening's activities, then perhaps at being asked to relive them for the Priest's benefit. and if not there, then certainly at the roughshod handling by the cop, and the 'boyfriend's' reactions to witnessing these things.

Gotta end here - these scratched glasses are screwing up my head. (of course, the wouldn't be scratched up, if I hadn't tried bashing my brains out in the dark.) But thank the deities, they sacrificed themselves to save my eyes...
score - stitches: 3, headache: 1, Jacks: blackeye, Glasses: 1/2

Jacks

 

[Penelope Street]

Penny, now that you put it that way, It was effective in refocusing my attention on the story. After I read that, the hint at the past, at first I was disappointed there wasn't anything more tangible, then I felt I should read more, just to see if there was more written of the previous evening's activities... Be that as it may, I just don't feel her mental state was accurately portrayed, which is why I thought she <might> freak out at the sight of 'that dress'. But it's only just now that I realize it's really mental state or emotion that my example is trying to show.

Excellent point! I was thinking from the literary perspective that subtler is a better way to pique one's interest early without giving away too much, but I agree Elizabeth is yet again blasé when seeing that dress again ought to have been seriously distressing for her.

...this was written for another member of the site which is why it feels like someone's fantasy.

Exactly how realistic is any fantasy meant to be? This may be the crux of the issue with Elizabeth's unbelievable behavior- was she ever meant to be all that realistic? Also worth keeping in mind, for this story, Mike's target audience is a single reader. Since that reader likely has preconceived ideas regarding Elizabeth, Mike may not have felt the need to develop her in a manner that might have helped the rest of us see her to be an authentic person and get better in touch with her. So, if I'm not prying too much, did specific reader for whom the story was written enjoy Elizabeth's tale?

 

[mikeaday]

yes they enjoyed it they had some input in the editing of the story. when i get time i will edit the first story and try to make it better.

thanks for the advice lynn i must even try the synonyms thing on word to expand it.

as for Started it means coming back to her self. i.e if someone was in a day dream and they were startled they might start i.e jump sorry if that doesnt make any sense it might be just an Irish thing.

As for the story being to unrealistic, it was written for a specific member and this was what they wanted included. But i get your point if i want to appeal to a broader audiance i should make it more believable

 

[_Lynn_]

yes they enjoyed it they had some input in the editing of the story. when i get time i will edit the first story and try to make it better.

thanks for the advice lynn i must even try the synonyms thing on word to expand it.

as for Started it means coming back to her self. i.e if someone was in a day dream and they were startled they might start i.e jump sorry if that doesnt make any sense it might be just an Irish thing.

As for the story being to unrealistic, it was written for a specific member and this was what they wanted included. But i get your point if i want to appeal to a broader audiance i should make it more believable

I've written pieces for someone specific many times. However, they remain private, shown to only that person. That's the intended audience, so that's where they remain.

Including all the information you did, in so few words, might be part of the reason it feels so unrealistic. If the three events took place over an entire summer, for example, there would be time to add some of the missing elements. There are times to expand a piece to make it work, just as removing extraneous words/scenes tightens others.

 

[Penelope Street]

As for the story being to unrealistic, it was written for a specific member and this was what they wanted included. But i get your point if i want to appeal to a broader audience i should make it more believable

I'm happy to hear your reader enjoyed the story. A point I was trying to make earlier is that it may not be reasonable to expect many others to become involved in a tale written so specifically for one person.