Stereotypical Narration

[wildsweetone]

A thought from another thread triggered this one.

1. When a female author writes a story in first person from a male perspective, what do women assume about men that gives our characters their traits, personalities and impetus?

and vice versa

2. When a male author writes a story in first person from a female perspective, what do you, as a male, assume about women that gives your characters their traits, personalities and impetus?

 

[BigTexan]

Of course the classic answer to this comes from the movie "As Good as it Gets"

"I think about a man and take away reason and accountability"

Just Kidding, Ladies.

Honestly I have written a story with a woman as the main character. It was written in third person, but from her viewpoint. I didn't make very many assumptions about her because she was a woman. She was a woman who'd been abused by her husband. The abuse, not the fact that she was female, was the overriding influence on her personality.

I really believe that women are people and men are people and each person is different. If you think of it this way then making your character a person is enough.

Oh, yeah, I know the whole gambit of "Women are from Venus, Men are from Mars, and Woody Alan is from Pluto" thing. But I read the book and it was backwards. My wife thinks more like the Men from Mars than I do and I think more like the women from Venus than she does. I'm the one who wants to communicate. I'm the one who wants emotion. She's the one who wishes I'd just let it go so she could watch the football game.

So to answer the question. What would I assume about the character that would give that character their traits, personality, and impetus?

Only that they were a person. Then I would have to know what had happened to them to make them that person. Usually when I'm building a past for my characters, the characters become much more defined in my head and then they are easy to write.

I hope this answers your question WSO. It is an interesting thought.

BigTexan

 

[peachykeen]

I've never tried writing from the male's perspective. Not yet anyway. My stories generally come from little daydreams, musings etc and I guess I haven't 'mused' about it from the other side yet LOL. We'll see.

 

[ronde]

I've not yet attempted to write in the guise of a woman, although I've gotten feedback that I must be female. I hope that's a good thing.

There have been some interesting studies into the differences in mental processes between male and female, and I use the data in my character development. Among other traits, the vast majority of women tend to exhibit an attitude of negotiation rather than confrontation, a need for long term relationships rather than multiple partners or friends, and thinking that tends to be encompassing rather than directional. There are many logical explanations for these trends, and all relate to the ability of the smaller, child-bearing female to survive in the early days of mankind.

I don't believe the "normal" male/female stereotypes are biologically determined, as are the above. They are only behaviors reinforced by parents and peers, and most of us cross the dividing lines depending on situation, age, and perceived need. I would define my female narrator in this light, and her personality would probably change as she moved from home to office to vacation resort.

 

[TaffyJ]

Just my perspective...

I view men in general as more goal oriented and easy going. For example, he is going out tonight and just wants to get laid. Everything he does is an effort toward that goal. Not much distracts him from it. If one prospect doesn't pan out, he quickly shifts to other possibilities. In the end if it doesn't work out, he is mildly disappointed, but goes home and jacks off and thinks "better luck next time."

I see women as more catty, and paying more attention to details and nuances. She is going out tonight, too. But she wants to "meet someone." However that ends up, she's along for the thrill of the ride. She spends hours getting ready, and figuratively hisses at bitches who get in her way when she's got her eye on a particular guy. If things don't go her way, she's got a million and one reasons, little things she noticed that caused it to go bad. She'll be in a bad mood for days.

This is a HUGE generalization, and may vary greatly, depending on the character I'm writing. I don't have that much experience on this, so everybody jump in and share your views so I can learn!

 

[Ms.M]

I lived with a guy for a year, not as lovers but as roomates, and he did go out with the goal of getting laid..but if he failed in his attempts he did not just come home and jerk off and say better luck next time...he felt the rejection and over time i am sure it bothered him..not to say there aren't a lot of guys out there who do just as someone said....And its been my experience that you can tell who they are. and sadly they are usually the ones who get laid the most...

We had a discussion one night about trying to get laid, and he was resentful of the fact if he walked into a bar and said "hey i'm looking to get laid tonight" meet me at the door in fifteen minutes.. he would be meet with laughter and calls of "pervert..but he said if i did it, even if everyone said what a slut!!! there would still be ten guys at the door waiting for me.

Of course the cavaet to that is, while i may have that advantage, he didn't have to worry about violence and ending up raped or worse laying on the side of the road somewhere with his throat cut.....

Ms M...

 

[Pookie]

My second story was from a male's POV in first person. It was a struggle for me not to make him sound too feminine. I had him expressing things that "typical guys" don't. After a few re-writes, I felt better about how he was portrayed. Guys tend to not express feelings and emotions openly, they keep it inside for the most part.

One scene had him calling his "soon to be" girlfriend the morning after they both saw each other out with other dates. She invited him over to her apartment, told him to come in about an hour after she had a chance to shower. He said he would be "right over". She told him to slow down ... "in an hour". He went over early anyways.

The differences are not great, more subtle. But their are differences that can make or break a character if trying to write from a different gender's perspective. I tried using my fiancee's personality and reactions to help guide me.

 

[Diane Marie]

Originally posted by me
Being a woman is of special interest only to aspiring male transsexuals. To actual women it is merely a good excuse not to play football.
Fran Lebowitz

Maybe she should have included male authors, but I still love that quote.

For those male authors, may I suggest, you read "Forever", "Summer Sisters", "Smart Women" by Judy Blume. She does a very good job of showing what's in our head. That is where you need to be if you want to write about us.

Any of you men have a suggestion for works we could read?

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Le Difference

Well I disagree. I think there are big differences between men and women, at least in the ideal, but I think there's alot of overlap between the two bell curves for any individual.

I think men are motivated by a search for power: how to get it, how to use it, and what it does.

Women are motivated by a search for love: same things.

When I'm writing as a woman, I pay attention to how I look, what I'm wearing. I feel sexy with my whole body (I love that). I think a lot. I had to get help in another thread to find out how I felt when I was horny, but I think I understand it better now.
When I go out looking for adventure, I'm not going to jump into the sack with Mr Stud. I'm probably going to look for someone who's funny, gentle and kind, and maybe a little sad. And then I want to be 'cherished'. I want him to make love to all of me, not just kiss my boobs, lick my pussy and shove it in.

If I'm an agressive woman, I'm still going to take it out more in flirting than in screwing. I enjoy teasing men. It's very exciting, almost as good as sex. Men are so easy to string along.

I like being held and I like being kissed. I like finesse in his kissing.
The climax of the sex scene is not the orgasm, it is the beginning of the act itself. What follows isn't as important as the initiation.
When we make love, my description is shorter and more about what I'm feeling than how we're doing it. I get off on feeling his strength and his weight on me.

I'd like to be aggresively naughty like men are, but I'm afraid of being thought a slut, not by men so much as by myself and by other women. I'm ashamed of my body because it's not perfect, no matter how good it may really be, but I love it too when I'm admired, and I just love being touched.

If I love you, I'll do almost anything for you, in the bedroom and out. I really don't understand men and how they can be so promiscuous; how he can love me and yet still look at other women. Men's priorities are so stupid. As long as we love each other, not much else is all that important.

Well, that's the kind of woman I am.

---dr.M.

 

[deliciously_naughty]

I've only written one story from the male perspective.

My descriptions of him and the way he thought came from my many experiences with men as friends, lovers, and enemies

 

[dr_mabeuse]

DeliciouslyNaughty

Come on, DN. The question was /how/ did you make him appear male? What made him different from your female characters?

This is really a fascinating subject; an attempt to bridge the Great Divide, if it even exists.

---dr.M.

 

[wildsweetone]

wow, i've sneaked online to see what's happening with this thread... wondered if it had died an 'orrible death or something. talk about surprised!

i'm so glad everyone's jumping in. it's a fascinating topic from both the male and female perspective.

i started it because of something i read on another thread. (forgive me please, but i haven't been able to find it again to post it here.) an author said something like... 'think like a dick'. that really made me wonder. if guys think with their dicks, do gals think with their pussy's? nope, at least in a general sense most of us don't.

therein lie the generalisations, the sterotypes if you will.

some guys are really sensitive people, they don't screw around, they care about their mates, they even go so far as to love them enough to encourage their mates to feel good about themselves.

some girls are really not interested in using their brains, enjoying the flirty part of sexual relationships... they just want to grab the nearest man by the hair and drag him off to a bed somewheres...

dr_mabeuse, i enjoyed your feminine thoughts, thanks so much for getting right into 'her' head and sharing them.

please feel free anyone to share similar thoughts

what makes males different from females?

 

[Route66Girl]

I've only once written from the male POV, and that was in my 2cd story here. And a couple people said my feminity intruded into the character, David Getty, because of his sensitivity. So I clearly have some work to do in that regard.

However, I don't think that it's wise to rely on male/female stereotypes when creating a character, unless it's significant to the story. Otherwise, you end up with more of a charicature than a character.

There are a lot of differences between the sexes in a general sense, but I've seen stereotypes defied in so many instances that I don't much take them seriously anymore.

There's one difference I read about somewhere (wish I could remember where- some psychology study) that is very interesting, because it involves infants who haven't been conditioned by society yet and therefore have no clue that they're supposed to act this way or that. Male infants tend to be fascinated by objects around them, whereas female infants are more captivated by people's faces.

 

[Uther_Pendragon]

I've written stories from the female POV, both first and
third-person. (The hard ones were written from the POV of,
respectively, a dog, a horse, and a condom.)
I don't think it's difficult to get the opposite sex's POV.
There are two reasons for this:
1) You have to get any main character's perspective, even
if that isn't the POV character.
2) There is one hell of a lot more to any decent character
than that character's sex. (Or "gender" if you want to use
that word differently from how careful English-speakers use
it.)
===
Women have reviewed ceveral of my stories highly, without
mentioning any problems from having them written from the
female POV.
If you want to read one on Lit, there is "Problems of
Utilitarianism."

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Testosterone

There's a fascinating little book about testosterone whose name I can't remember (don't you love that?). The author is some sort of researcher who developed a quick and easy saliva test for determining a person's level of testosterone and then set about testing people. It seems that a lot of the stereotypes about men are true and are caused by testosterone.

Both men and women have the both male and female steroidal hormones in their body. It's the ratio of male:female hormones that varies between the sexes.

Men with high levels of testosterone tend to be aggressive, competitive risk takers.

Women with high levels of testosterone tend to be the same way. Most female competitive athletes he looked at had high levels of testosterone, so did sexually aggressive women and aggressive women in general.

He didn't say whether there was a specific female hormone that endowed stereotypical female characteristics as testosterone did male ones.

I think there is enough feminine-masculine overlap that either sex can pretty mych write as either sex. Maybe not well, but well enough.

What I think is really interesting about this though is how we understand the differences we see between the sexes. How far can you read in a first person story without guessing the narrator's gender? How long before you start getting frustrated? Might be a goof writing excercise.

---dr.M.

 

[deliciously_naughty]

Re: DeliciouslyNaughty

Come on, DN. The question was /how/ did you make him appear male? What made him different from your female characters?

This is really a fascinating subject; an attempt to bridge the Great Divide, if it even exists.

---dr.M.

My character had been loyal to his g/f but when presented with the chance fucked someone (several someones in this case) else. He was pretty self centered, open to stuff that came along and when presented with a willing woman was ready to jump on board.

My female characters actually run the gamut from cynical to optimistic, agressive to submissive, and catty to sweet.

Depends on my cybil-like moods actually

 

[Diane Marie]

I think men are motivated by a search for power: how to get it, how to use it, and what it does.
Women are motivated by a search for love: same things.

I don’t really see men this way at all, I think men are just as motivated by the search for love as we are. Granted men tend to take us for granted once they have our love. It seems to me, then and only then do their priorities change putting us a distance second to other priorities, such as career, hunting, fishing, football, so on or so forth. I also think men are more motivated by success then they are in a search for power. Of all my men only one, my last husband, wanted power. That extended to power over everything in his world, work, his children and myself. To top this off not all men fit, some are very loving, we are their first priority.

As for us being motivated by only a search for love, you couldn’t be more wrong. We are not that one dimensional. Yes, it may be in our nature to be maternal, putting lover/husbands and children first but most of us seek fulfillment in more things then just family. As for myself, my career is my first priority, it’s who I am, the love of my life is second, although not a distance second. She understands this, as I understand it in her. Maybe if I could have had children my priorities would be different, I believe that most women, no matter how much they love their partners, put their children first, at least until they’ve grown.

The climax of the sex scene is not the orgasm, it is the beginning of the act itself. What follows isn't as important as the initiation.

At least for me you’ve got that wrong, my orgasms are important to me! You get yours, I want mine first, for I know once you have yours, I’m not getting one. Oh by the way I want more then just one, one is never enough. Without orgasms I’d rather cuddle, maybe you men don’t get it. Remember Ann Lander’s famous survey, 80% of women would rather cuddle. I figure that’s because 80% of you men don’t get it, WE WANT ORGASMS.

 

[ronde]

Diane Marie, you raise an interesting point about women and power. My personal experience provides real life support for your arguement.

When I began my engineering career, the "win at all costs" attitude prevailed among male engineers. Career progression was everything. There were very few female engineers around, and those girls were looked up on as a little different by both sexes.

Today, the situation has somewhat reversed. I see many young male engineers who's goal seems to be getting through the day with as little stress as possible. They hate working extra hours and are more than willing to let others do their work. They describe their jobs as "OK". Female engineers are a different story. They are the ones I see staying late and taking work home on the weekends. They are fiercely competitive, and are very proud of their work. Infringe on what they consider their scope of authority, and you're sure to hear about it.

Engineers are but a small slice of the population, but I see similar situations in accounting and purchasing functions.

The whole power thing has been around since time began, in both genders. Power is just having control over one's enviroment and personal success. The reason men are seen as "driven by the quest for power", is that for centuries, society expected men to control everything. Since males are, in general, of larger size, that control was easy to get.

Women were expected to keep the home and raise children. I would contend women in that role also sought and achieved control over their environment. They used their intelligence to keep the provider coming home with a haunch of meat or, more recently, a paycheck. They convinced their mates to build homes for their safety and comfort. Society measured their personal success by the number of children they brought to adulthood.

Today, strength is not as important as intelligence and negotiation skills, and women are able to compete on the same footing as their male counterparts. Society accepts, and in some cases, expects women in traditional male roles. Women are expanding their search for power to these roles, and are just as successful in them as are men.

 

[wildsweetone]

it's a fine line we tread when we portray the 'typical' male and 'typical' female characters in our stories.

in romance for example, while the female characters are able to now be shown in traditional high ranking male jobs, (as authors we are actually encouraged to be realistic) it is still preferrable for her to 'succumb' to the act of falling in love, or losing one's heart.

falling and losing both have a literal negative component, as if by being in love we are losing a little of what we once were.

also, i believe it is fairly rare for the male character to be shown in any traditional female role. the commonest is as the main caregiver, due to loss of the wife/mother. rarely do we see a male librarian, or secretary.

when we read for pleasure, what do we expect our typical hero/heroine to be like? be careful how you define this because i would guess that the majority of us still prefer to read the 'typical' female/male roles.

Diane Marie/ronde - yes even in this day and age there are real life examples of traditional male/female roles. personally i think 'life' is big enough to encompass the typical and non-typical roles.

Pookie_grrl, forgive me i've only just noticed your 'typical guys' comment. What do you define as a typical guy? (this is just a discussion by the way )

 

[jacqui4u2]

great thread

I avidly read the posts on this thread and felt compelled to add a few random thoughts

to write from the opposite POV requires the author to opine on their perspective on how the opposite gender would approach a situation...

being a gal, i can't imagine the feeling of an aroused cock, throbbing between my legs or the feelings a man has to thrust his cock to cum. i would comment that in my experience the more aroused a male is, the less likely it is that he can be gentle and thoughtful in his caresses.. but i'm sure a man would respond that as us ladies get aroused, we tend to get more physical...

I know that my male lovers could spend more time caressing me, not just my obvious erogenous zones, but also caress me to help me relax and become in tune with his caresses and arouse me

My female lovers seem to be more in tune with my needs,,

having said that, there is nothing as wonderful as a male lover who can make me scream


Jacqui

 

[Pookie]

The differences to me have nothing to do with desire for power or love (redundant??). When writing a story, the male or female desires and feelings are the same. My problem comes in expressing those desires/feelings and their reactions as part of their dialogue. The mental reactions are not that much different between a man and a woman ... it's the reactions seen by those around.

In other words, I may say something as a woman in reaction to an event that a man won't say because of peer pressure (and vice versa). When I mentioned that I made the male protagonist too feminine, it was in the dialogue where that occurred. Men just don't say the same things as women in reaction to specific events, typically.

For a simple example ...

She said, "Wow, I just love that dress! She needs to loose a little weight though if she is going to wear it. I can't believe she wore those shoes with it!"

He said, "Wow, she looks hot ... can't wait to get her out of that dress."

Stereotypical I know ... but if I alternate the "he" and "she" ... it won't work with the reader in general.

 

[wildsweetone]

would it be fair to suggest that in general, our

women characters are much more 'flowery' in their dialogue and thoughts, and

our male characters are 'precise and to the point'?

 

[DVS]

what makes males different from females?

Well, you see...it's rather simple, really. Not unlike the belly button, some have innies, and some out outies. When one fits into the other, even if you have to sometimes help it fit, the sparks tend to fly.

Oh, that is only the physical difference. When you are talking about the male mind or the female mind, there are stereotypes, galore. But, the trouble with stereotypes is they only fit a small percentage of either sex.

They do tend to be the more vocal percentage, and of that, the stereotype is created.

Dumb blondes, dickheads, trollops, mattress backs, cheerleaders, prick teasers, dumb jocks, timid toads, plain janes...we all have some of these traits inside. At any given moment, these nasty traits come to the surface, if for only a short while.

The older and wiser we get, the more control we have over this. We learn from our mistakes.

But, this can also make us less fun to be around.

Oh, but to get to the point of the thread...
I once read a story where the writer was a male, and he was writing in the female point of view. He had her saying things like "I had to jerk off..." I had to go back and read some parts again, to be sure it was a female character.

Come on, now. Do women really talk like this?

 

[Whispersecret]

No woman I've ever known has said to me, "I had to go jerk off." Probably because in order to masturbate, women don't jerk on anything.

 

[deliciously_naughty]

sigh...women do not "jerk off"...we do however "jill off" (although I've never seen that expression outside a skin mag, "play with ourselves", "finger ourselves", "stroke the pussy", "masturbate", and any other number of euphimisms. Things like what you outlined DVS also throw me and generally cause me to lose my interest in the story erotically.