Staying out of the story

[Ray Dario]

I just got through surfing the new stories. I find I don't do that as much anymore, but today I needed a break.

I back clicked out of each story I read and then I forced myself to be a good writer and go back to each on to determine why I back clicked. Hoping that I could notice something and improve my own writing by doing this.

The first story: Glaring word usage problem in first sentence - Killed the story for me then and there - clicked out.

Second story: Political lecture - Sorry I'm a redneck. I don't want to talk philosophy or politics with my johnson in my hand. Just makes me feel weird

Third story: Philosophical - see above.

Fourth story - Writer began story by telling me he/she expected to get weird email for writing the story.

Fifth story - Writer started by telling me "a little about myself."

Sixth story - Writer started by thanking me for reading his/her story.

As I looked at this I noticed that, other than the first story, all the stories I read I clicked out of because the writer intruded on the story and it bugged me. Bugged me so bad that I clicked out of the story without reading it, without voting and without giving feedback.

How do the rest of you feel about this. Is it just a freaky redneck kinda thing or do the rest of you dislike it when the writer intrudes on the story?

Ray

 

[P. B. Walker]

I couldn't agree more Ray... that annoys me as well. Even if I don't have my penis in my hand LOL.

I don't mind if they put a small note at the bottom... at least the story is over and if I really loved the story I'll read the note...

The only time I believe there should be something from the author at the very top of the story is if a warning needs to be made... for example, "Don't read this if your offended by sex between two old gay men" or something like that. Basically, if the story is so weird that it will offend people, then a warning will not upset me one bit.

You make a good point of what NOT to do

- PBW

 

[KillerMuffin]

*smiles in satisfaction*

Show, don't tell. Two writers who figured it out...

My list of good reads is growing.

 

[P. B. Walker]

<BLUSH>

awww shucks, ma'am.

If anything we had good role models <winks>. Plus, us good ole boys (ok, redneck in Ray's case), we aren't as dense as everyone thinks LOL...

- PBW

 

[Whispersecret]

It usually doesn't but me if a writer "intrudes," but it depends on the intrusion. If they're thanking an editor or something, that doesn't bother me. If they're issuing a warning (I don't condone rape, but this story has some in it...), as I did on my novella, obviously I think that's okay.

If they thank me for reading the story right off the bat, I will say, "I haven't read it yet," and be annoyed. I may not backclick, but I will be reading with a little bit of an attitude. Thanks for reading belong at the end.

If they say, "This is a true story, yada yada yada," I'll back click. I will always assume that's bullshit, whether it is or not.

If they start to tell me how they came to write this story, I'll back click. Save that stuff for the end. If liked the story, then I'll be interested in your walk down memory lane, otherwise, save it.

One thing that deters me immediately is when the story title is something like, "Lily's Milks the Milkman," and the author is Lily. UGH. Maybe it's just me, but that seems like the height of self-centeredness. It reminds me of when movie stars get into writing/producing/directing their own movies. I just wanna say, "Get over yourself already."

 

[poohlive]

I think you are judging these stories unfairly ladies and gentlemen.
You are putting these stories under the "erotic" category in your mind, and comparing them to your own, or to some of the greats at Lit.
These stories aren't erotica, they are porn stories. The only destiny in their creation is to help men, and some women, jack off. The authors probably don't have much experience in actually submitting pieces of work and find that there's not difference between the author and the narrator.
Yes, there is a difference.
Anyway, they only put these stories up for more jacking material, not for aesthetic value or to send you to some magically erotic place. It's simply designed for the rough and tough stuff.
You would see, if you read these stories, that they get right to the point. The female, somehow horny as hell and willing to do anything to relieve it, comes home to find her son and the mailman having sex.
Well, she just has to join in, doesn't she?
These stories focus on the sex, not the circumstances, not the emotions, not the feelings. Ray, whatever you were hoping to find in those stories, obviously wasn't going to be there.
I'd say, let's not take this author intrusion as a curse, but a blessing. It automatically tells us, right from the beginning, what kind of story it's going to be.
Wouldn't life be much simpler if it were like this? You could just steer clear of the people with the word asshole or jerk stamped to their forehead.

 

[p_p_man]

Ooops! And it's the first time I've ever done it.

On "Glory, Glory Hallelujah - Chap 3." I wrote a small pre-amble telling the readers where they could find parts 1 and 2, other than going to my profile and clicking on from there.

I did this because another trilogy I wrote "Payment In Kind" only has Chaps 1 and 3 in the regular categories. Chap 2 can be found in Extreme which does not appear on the profiles. I had a number of e-mails asking where Chap 2 could be found.

This time I thought I'd pre-empt...

 

[KillerMuffin]

Judging.

We aren't critiquing. We aren't giving the author feedback. We are complaining. Why? We do not like stories that we do not like. We like stories where good writing is involved, not just hot sex.

Gee, poohlive, pardon us for not being cheerleaders and not reading something we don't like just because someone's a novice who tried their best.

Some of us prefer erotica. It is our right to do so and it's perfectly acceptable.

 

[Ray Dario]

Poolive

I realize you were being sarcastic, but I think your point misses the mark a little too. Hell I like porn as much as I like erotica. Depends on my mood, and I was in the mood for porn. But what these writers did killed my mood and that made me grouchy. And what made it worse was that it was all six of the stories I started to read.

Maybe I was grouchy to begin with, but when I want a good "Cheatin'" story, I hate to have to look so hard for one. I probably should have just gone to English Bob's profile page and read one of his stories. It would have saved me being irritated.

Wouldn't life be much simpler if it were like this? You could just steer clear of the people with the word asshole or jerk stamped to their forehead.

You mean it ain't that way in Oregon? Down here in Texas we know which people are assholes and jerks by their licence plates.
Just kidding guys!

To P_P_Man;

Your kind of intrusion isn't the kind I'm talking about. Little comments or disclaimers at the top of the story that I can skip don't bother me. It is when the story has already started and then the writer intrudes that it just kinda knocks me clean out of the mood.

Ray

 

[poohlive]

Cheerleaders? Where in the hell did that come from?
Killermuffin, you have a right to read erotica, just as much as those people have a right to write porn.
They don't complain to you how stupid all of the set up to the actual sex is, do they?
Well, probably because they don't actually come this far to the Bulletin Board. Most of the guys are just happy enough that they don't have to pay for the stories they read.
Not everyone is a great writer. In all honesty, most people are mediocre at best. They see the sex in the story, they don't see the character development, the great interaction, the beautiful description of setting, the irony, the beauty, no, all they see is two people having sex.
If that's all they see, then that's all they write.
It's like being a poor sport. If you were in a race with an olympic champion, and he stomped your ass, would he come over to you and start 'complaining' (your word, not mine) about how horrible you did?
No, if he were a gentleman at all, he would congratulate you for trying, and say better luck next time, maybe even give you a few pointers.
At least Ray got that I was being sarcastic.
I understand that whole intrusion problem. But, it's just that the author doesn't know any better. Hell, the porn that he reads probably has those intrusions as well. It might even turn him on, clicking on a story, and then realizing there's some homoerotic forced humiliation. It gets him hot and makes him want to read it again and again.
To us though, it's just missing the whole point of the story. How can it be unfolded if you already know what's going to happen?

(Disclaimer: These two guys are going to have sex in the bathroom. WHOO HOO!!!!)

John swigged another shot of tequila as he saw a tall drink of water walk over from the dance floor.
"Nice night," he said casually.
John realized his bladder was full, and excused himself to the bathroom.

Gee, I wonder what'll happen next?
Half of the eroticism in the story is wondering what will happen. You meet the characters, and there's almost an anticipation. When? Where? what? Why? It's like waiting for christmas day so you can run downstairs and rip open each and every one of your presents.
The disclaimer is like your brother telling you, "Oh yeah, that's a remote control. That over there is some socks. There's a new rug, that's the circular one, you know, the one you thought was a poster? Ohhh, and that big one? It's a T.V."
Ruins it all.

As for jerks and assholes, it's impossible over here. We've all got pretty much the same license plate. You can't tell until five minutes after a conversation, and by then.... it's already too late.
I think jerk is a disease, and it must be contagious. I always feel dirty after talking to one.



PP Man, in all honesty, I wish more writers would do that. Some stories are all over the place, one in erotic couplings, one in extreme, one in incest, and two parts in interacial. I would appreciate it if more people could tell us where the other chapters are, so we don't have to go clicking around half the site to find them.

 

[KillerMuffin]

No one can hear your sarcasm on the 'Net

I didn't see your sarcasm because I took you at face value.
I still don't see the sarcasm and I read it a few times.


I'm still not seeing what's wrong with this entire thread anyway. Probably because I don't particularly care about a writer's feelings no matter how long they've been going at it. I don't care about theirs. I don't care about yours. I don't care about mine. I only care about the stories. If they can't deal with less than glowing feedback then they shouldn't post it in the real world.

And yes, poohlive, you would be shocked at how much they complain about the build up. There's too much stuff, write more sex, you didn't write the sex the way it should end, the writing was great but I didn't cum because you put too much stuff in there so you got a 2, who cares what they did before they started fucking. Look on the top list. All, what 9 pages? I'm not anywhere on there. I am not a popular writer by anyone's stretch of the imagination.

Of course, I don't give feedback either. Unless it's been specifically requested from me by the author personally.

 

[JUDO]

Becoming better...

Interesting.

Can we...should we assume that because of this being an author's thread that the feedback is intended to help other's become better authors?

I do.

I look at what the thread says to find out what readers want, no matter who they are.
I think that was the intent of KM and others on this thread, nothing more.

You have a problem with that? Tough.

Getting back to the point of the thread...

I think that writing, no matter what form you are creating, innately wants the author to stay out of the reader's way. I think we need to do all we can to improve our abilities to keep the reader in the story.

I do my best (and it's only so-so, so far) to create a movie that plays steadily in the reader's mind, doing nothing to take them out of it.

The better I get at creating the images, the better the experience for the read will get.

 

[poohlive]

Speech is 10 percent words, and 90 percent intent.
I would understand where you could not see the sarcasm in there, I thought the whole jerk on the forehead thing would have helped, but I guess it didn't.
Well, when I write a sarcastic post next time, I'll put a little note in it explaining what I'm doing. Unless of course that explanation is sarcasm itself, and then... you're on your own.
I do apologize about the lousy feedback KM. The problem is there's too general an audience here. Anyone who is literate, horny and has an internet hookup can come in here, and unfortunately that is a lot of people, and not all of them care about writing, but sex.
That's one of the reasons that makes this site so great. It's a virtual melting pot of down and dirty rough porn and elegant erotica. And, everything in between.
You take the good, and you take the bad.
Oh well, besides complaing what can you really do?
Nagging... or possibly tutoring. We could always judge them, critique them (being sarcastic now) and even tattle on them.


You know what, I'm appointing a court order. Authors must stay fifty feet from their stories at all times. Now, there can be no disclaimers. (being sarcastic again). Just a story, that is either sex, or sex and plot.
Best of both worlds.

 

[KillerMuffin]

You're really hard to read man. I think it's the paragraphing scheme. I must have missed the jerk on the forehead thing.

Don't apologize for the feedback. You didn't write it. I know what I'm doing when I post outside of the audience's expectations here. They, in general, come here to bust a nut. I don't provide that then my stories aren't "good."

*shrugs*

It used to upset me, back when I thought less about my writing. These days, though, I know I'm good. As if I'm not already arrogant beyond belief. I can see why a story was poorly recieved.

I have one that's only got over a 3.00 because I have this core group of readers that automatically 5's everything. There's three of them, I think. I broke the cardinal rule. I pissed of my readers. Seriously pissed them off. 7 hate mails and quite a few "I'm really disappointed. I thought it would be a good story and then it was just a cheesy cliche. Bam, serial killer."

When you don't write what readers want, they give you a lukewarm reception or they complain. Believe it or not, one of the guys who sent me hate mail put his valid email address in there. He expected a fight, but didn't get one. We had a rather good email discussion and he went on to read some of my other stuff, which he wouldn't have.

I am at peace with my intentional writing errors.

I think I lost my point somewhere. Did I even have one? Dunno, I forgot...

 

[Ray Dario]

Speech is 10 percent words, and 90 percent intent.

Bullshit! No one can tell your intent, unless they are Miss Cleo. As humans we have to rely on what is said or done, not on what is intended. That is what makes all this shit about sexual harrasment such bullshit. Not the real sexual harrasment stuff. That is bad, but when the "Victim" says "I was offended by his/her intent!" They didn't know intent, that was just in their mind!

You know what, I'm appointing a court order. Authors must stay fifty feet from their stories at all times. Now, there can be no disclaimers. (being sarcastic again). Just a story, that is either sex, or sex and plot.
Best of both worlds.

Sorry, restraining orders don't work. All I'm asking is that you don't start the story and then break in with a news flash, or a political statement, or some other intrusive comment. That belongs in a "comments" section at the top of the story, before the story starts or perhaps at the very end if you really feel the need to rant. But unless it is a warning about the story or perhaps a small explanation that this is a part of a continueing story, then why put it in at all. Use the boards to spout your lame political ideas. That's what I do

BTW KM, do you know why everyone hates a cynic? Because they are always right!

Ray

 

[poohlive]

I did say speech, I didn't say written word. Speech is all about intent. It's true that no one can positively know the intent of what someone says perfectly, but that doesn't mean we can just throw intent out the window. Intentions are part of humanity. People have been killed for looking at other people the wrong way, not because of anything they said, but because of their intent of hatred or disgust in their eyes.

Wanna take an example?

Two collegues, who barely know each other, pass by the street. One waves friendly and mutters a hello. He feels obligated since he at least knows the guy. The other says hello back and they both go about their business for the day.

The first anniversary for a newlywed couple. The man, drenched in rain and carrying soggy flowers finally comes home nearly an hour late. Dinner is cold and her foot is tapping a mile a minute. He looks at her with those sad puppy dog eyes, and says hello.

A son comes back home from college, needing cash. He knows his family is living on a fixed budget as it is, but if he doesn't get this money, he won't eat for the next two weeks. He looks at his parents, knowing there will be a lot of arguing and discussion long into the night. But, it has to start somewhere. He says hello almost energetically, but sorrow not lost to the word.

Why not a woman, who has just seen the man of her dreams? She has had a couple of beers, and to tell the truth a lot of guys are slowly beginning to look like the man of her dreams. She trips, and falls into his arms, their eyes stuck to each other, and for that instant, it's total bliss. The word melts in her mouth, Hello.

Are you going to sit there, honestly, and tell me that out of these 4 situations, all of them are going to say the word hello exactly the same? No difference at all? Hello, just a word?
No, they are different because in each situation the person has a different intent. Be it merely to recognize, or apologize, or to gain something.
I've been training professionally as an actor for four years, and that is what acting basically is, finding the intent behind the script. The script is nothing but words, sure the passion is there, and the love, hate, and just about any other emotion you can think of, but all a script is, is words on a paper. The actor (if he's any good) recognizes the intent, and says them with the true belief that they are that character.

Would A Few Good Men have been as good as it was if, in the climax of the scene, Jack Nicholson just sort of shrugged his shoulders and stated plainly, "You can't handle the truth."


The only difference in real life is that you don't have to pretend. You actually have an intent. Believe me, if you wanted too, you could take a completely normal conversation and easily turn it into a sexual harrassment case.
Come on, I just named numerous intentions for one single word. Think of what would happen if I were to examine an actual sentence. Total chaos.

Not convinced? What about another example? Here's a short list of all the words that, in the english language, can replace the word "said."

Yelled, replied, mumbled, muttered, sighed, laughed, cried, shouted, spat, groaned, grumbled, uttered, moaned, quoted, warned, stated, giggled, whined, cursed, thought aloud.

I could go on, but I believe you get my point.
Still think it's bullshit?

 

[Ray Dario]

I could go on, but I believe you get my point.
Still think it's bullshit?

Yep!

What you are talking about is body language, inflection, and non-verbal signals that are used to express meaning. Intent is something completly different.

-----------
Intent (noun)

1) Something that is intended; an aim or purpose. See Synonyms at intention.

2) Law. The state of one's mind at the time one carries out an action.

adj.
1) Firmly fixed; concentrated: an intent gaze.

2)Having the attention applied; engrossed: The students, intent upon their books, did not hear me enter the room.

3)Having the mind and will focused on a specific purpose: was intent on leaving within the hour; are intent upon being recognized.

-------------

Yes actors use non-verbal signals, inflection, and body-language to try to show intent, but the actors intent is different from the intent they are trying to portray and thus the devices they use to show intent is not intent.

Convoluted? But only because I'm not a great word smith. My point is that intent is always unknown by all but the person to whom it belongs.

Salespeople use all the devices in the world to trick the "mark" into buying something. Their non-verbal signals try to convice us that their INTENT is honest, but their true intent is generally somewhere far south of that.

Ray

 

[poohlive]

I love it when people prove my point for me.
Ok, let's start from the beginning.
What I am talking about is not the words, but how people use them, including, yes, hand gestures and everything else. In speech, even how close a person is standing from you is important and relevant.


Intent is different than expressing meaning? Yet, in the definition you say that Intent is an aim or a purpose. Are you telling me there is a difference between meaning and purpose?

Well, since you like the dictionary so much, why don't we look up the word "meaning"?

Meaning: That which is intended or meant; purpose; aim; end.


In acting, there are objectives, just like in life. That is what you are talking about, and with those objectives the actors have to use tactics to conquer those objectives. I'll take an easy example.
Hamlet.
His objective is to revenge his father's death, and the tactics he uses is: going crazy, writing a play, sneaking around the castle, and other things. All of those tactics are used to help him conquer his objective.
The objective is the intent. The tactics are used to help him and the audience see that intent. So, there is no acting (Good acting that is. I'm not talking Pauly Shore. I am thinking more along the lines of DeNiro) There is no acting without intent.
It's all about the intent.

Let's say I come up to some guy one day, stare hard into his eyes, and spit out, "Hey, what's up with you and Donna?" Then, in a fast motion I bring up both my fists.
Now, what if I were to causally walk up to him and shake his hand, and then raise my eyebrows up and down, winking and smiling, "Hey, what's up with you and Donna?"

The same words, but different intent? Different meaning, different.... well whatever you want to call it.

Your quote:
(My point is that intent is always unknown by all but the person to whom it belongs.)

When did I ever say this wasn't true? Of course it's true, this is why there's so much controversy, no one ever knows anyone elses true intent. That doesn't mean you can just close your eyes and ignore the fact that it's there. Intent is slurred in every single word that's spoken.

If you want it to be more equal then, I could go down to 80 percent intent and 20 percent words?

I can't go any lower without lying to myself, and to you.

The car salesman is a great example. Intent is not always known, but you have proven my point beyond a shadow of a doubt. In every single word he says, the intent is there. He's going to try to get you into this particular car with every single sentence that comes out of his mouth. Even if that sentence is about the radiator, or how low gas mileage it has, or even what wonderful children you have.
He will say anything to get you into that car.
But, is he just going to keep repeating "buy this car?"
That is his only intent.
Why would he keep talking about the radiator or the seats if all he wants to do is get you into that car? Hmmm, why does he pretend to be your buddy if all he wants to do is get you into that car? Why does he keep talking about your kids if all he wants you to do is buy this car?
(Sarcasm slurred into this paragraph, if you didn't notice.)

Anyway, I think both our points were proven. Intent is something that no one can ever fully know without getting into the head of another person. Plays, stories, and movies are great tools to help a person look into another soul and see their intent. It's a wonderous thing, really.
But, no, I don't doubt that the intent (meaning) of a sentence is more important than the words used to say it. 80%

 

[Ray Dario]

I love it when people prove my point for me.
Ok, let's start from the beginning.
What I am talking about is not the words, but how people use them, including, yes, hand gestures and everything else. In speech, even how close a person is standing from you is important and relevant.


Intent is different than expressing meaning? Yet, in the definition you say that Intent is an aim or a purpose. Are you telling me there is a difference between meaning and purpose?

Poohlive;

I can see that I am not good enough a wordsmith to impart my meaning.

You ask if Intent is different thatn expressing meaning.

Are the words "red rose" different than the rose itself? I think so.

"Expressing Intent" is very different than the Intent itself. "Expressing Intent" is an action. "Intent" is a noun or an adjective. That is my point. You are saying that the intent influences the non-verbal signals sent and I agree with that. But the intent is not the non-signals that are sent. Intent is NOT the expression of intent.

Sorry but I didn't prove your point. You are misusing a word. I see what you are trying to say, and I agree with it, but not with what you actually said.

Ray

 

[KillerMuffin]

The interesting thing would be to separate "speech" online from "speech" done in real life.

Intent can be judged when there is a voice or a body to go with the "speech." How can the same be true online when all there is, is a set of disembodied, soundless words?

If I called someone a "fucking bitch," how can the intent be deciphered if I do not include the adverb to describe it? "Fucking bitch," I snarled. "Fucking bitch," I laughed. "Fucking bitch," I grumbled. "Fucking bitch," I grinned.

Some of us are dense. We only get online intent from tags.

 

[mlyn]

to: Poohlive

I agree that many people only come to read the sex part of the story, and if there is other "stuff" they skim right over it.

But over and over, the feedback I get more and more is that people are liking my stories because they are more than just "slam, bang and thank you, ma'am."

Just as each of us writes for one reason or another, so do readers come to read for different reasons.

As far as the start of the thread, I only did that once- a brief intro kind of thing, and later removed it.